Free Will -Redux

[Callace]

National Philosophy month is upon us, and long ago, I created a poll on the subject of Free Will. I have learned much in the interim, so now I submit to you, a refined and redefined poll, with the most Fair and BalancedTM options that pop into my gob.

Are our choices dictated by our environment and heredity? Does Free Will exist? Is it not special? Is it supernatural?



I'll start off with a rather radical quote.

B.F. Skinner, the behaviorist, famously asserted,

"I submit that what we call the behavior of the human organism is no more free than its digestion."

[Deleted]

I believe in free will because certain events are just too random to be scripted.

[Callace]

I believe in free will because certain events are just too random to be scripted.

Half with you on that one. I believe in uncertainty, but not randomness.

[Deleted]

Half with you on that one. I believe in uncertainty, but not randomness.

Well I believe in randomness, nobody expected my friend to get his cock out in the high street yesterday, it was totally random and even he does not know why he did it.

[Deleted]

Well I believe in randomness, nobody expected my friend to get his cock out in the high street yesterday, it was totally random and even he does not know why he did it.

Maybe it was a hint *nudge nudge wink wink*

[Callace]

Well I believe in randomness, nobody expected my friend to get his cock out in the high street yesterday, it was totally random and even he does not know why he did it.

I don't know, human behavior is pretty complex. I think most people don't know why they do most things. Doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying cause.

[Deleted]

I believe a lot of our daily and special events (scared, surpriced etc.) reactions are govern by natural instinct. But I believe we also have an amount of free will that makes us different from animals.

[Callace]

I believe a lot of our daily and special events (scared, surpriced etc.) reactions are govern by natural instinct. But I believe we also have an amount of free will that makes us different from animals.

Well, animals certainly don't have the level of self-concept that we do (although we like to pretend sometimes). I'm sure that accounts for a lot.

But then again, I've known people that seem like they are never aware of what they are doing...

[Blueobelisk]

This really should have been a public poll. I'm curious as to who answered what.

I answered the middle one. There is free will. But it being governed by a "supernatural force" is the same thing as not having free will lol.

[Underverse]

Really? I'm the only one who thinks determinism is a thing?

I am disappoint, mmo-champ....

[Callace]

But it being governed by a "supernatural force" is the same thing as not having free will lol.

What if it is a supernatural force? That was the meaning. I wasn't necessarily implying an "overseer" or "creator".

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Really? I'm the only one who thinks determinism is a thing?

I am disappoint, mmo-champ....

I'm what you would call a soft-determinist. In my opinion, Free Will is nothing but the control you have over nature divided by the control nature has over you.

So it's nature vs. nature.

[Garnier Fructis]

I'm what you would call a soft-determinist. In my opinion, Free Will is nothing but the control you have over nature divided by the control nature has over you.

So it's nature vs. nature.

But what does it mean to have control and how do you quantify it?

[Speaker]

I believe that if you were to replicate any given scenario down to every last atom the result will always be the same. The neurons will always fire off in the same pattern, and the same choice will be made every time. I believe that every one of our actions can be expressed into a single mathematical equation. But, it just is not possible for us to even construct or understand such a thing due to how complex it would be.

[Callace]

But what does it mean to have control and how do you quantify it?

That I don't pretend to know. I'd say it boils down to perception, but even perception is a physical, measurable thing (it's just incredibly difficult to measure, because the nervous system is so ridiculously complicated).

[pucGG]

I don't see what DNA or environment has to do with free will. I mean there's social heritage (I believe that is a term in English aswell), which is evident in todays society; children often grow up to resemble their parents. Children of academics more often than not become academics themselves etc. That's environmental factors, but it has nothing to do with free will.
Then there's Newtonian determinism which is the belief that everything was set in motion by the big bang and has been predetermined and should be predictable, given you have enough information, using newtons laws of motion. I mean, I get that some people buy into this, it's an entertaining idea, but I'm on Heisenbergs side on this one, I believe in randomness.

So yeah... supernatural (what a silly word to describe free will)

[Blueobelisk]

What if it is a supernatural force? That was the meaning. I wasn't necessarily implying an "overseer" or "creator".

Doesn't really matter. Either way it's "I don't have control over my will." In one case it's because of your genes, in another it's because...something else has control of you.

Kind of makes poll unbalanced.

Could you explain the middle option to me now lol.

[Callace]

I believe that if you were to replicate any given scenario down to every last atom the result will always be the same. The neurons will always fire off in the same pattern, and the same choice will be made every time. I believe that every one of our actions can be expressed into a single mathematical equation. But, it just is not possible for us to even construct or understand such a thing due to how complex it would be.

If it could be perfectly replicated, then it would be the same by definition, unless you believe in option 3 (I don't). But if we want to temper your hypothetical with reality, the glaring problem is that it could not actually be tested.

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I don't see what DNA or environment has to do with free will. I mean there's social heritage (I believe that is a term in English aswell), which is evident in todays society; children often grow up to resemble their parents. Children of academics more often than not become academics themselves etc. That's environmental factors, but it has nothing to do with free will.
Then there's Newtonian determinism which is the belief that everything was set in motion by the big bang and has been predetermined and should be predictable, given you have enough information, using newtons laws of motion. I mean, I get that some people buy into this, it's an entertaining idea, but I'm on Heisenbergs side on this one, I believe in randomness.

So yeah... supernatural (what a silly word to describe free will)

I don't think uncertainty is the same as randomness, but I'll let you have it for now, because I don't have evidence to the contrary.

[Sting]

I believe in action-reaction on a cosmic scale, and that everything is already set in motion, with no room for true free will. That being said, you can't possible know everything, so you're left with an illusion of choice.

[Callace]

Doesn't really matter. Either way it's "I don't have control over my will."

No no no. Meaning you are the supernatural force. Meaning, you have control over nature that exists outside of nature.

[Underverse]

I believe in action-reaction on a cosmic scale, and that everything is already set in motion, with no room for true free will. That being said, you can't possible know everything, so you're left with an illusion of choice.

Beautiful and concise.