Casuals > Raiders, when it comes to content - misconception

[Dormie]

Now tell me why again, do casuals deserve less content than raiders.

Because they aren't willing to put in any time. Which is a requirement for content that isn't a joke.

They make excuse that they are being blocked out of raiding, when it's their own choice to not do it. I'd like to play golf every day, but that takes time. I don't demand that they make courses with 5 holes because I can't play 18.

[Grimble]

Because they aren't willing to put in any time. Which is a requirement for content that isn't a joke.

They make excuse that they are being blocked out of raiding, when it's their own choice to not do it. I'd like to play golf every day, but that takes time. I don't demand that they make courses with 5 holes because I can't play 18.

If there were millions of casual golfers who didn't have time for a full course but who were still willing to pay the same money, you can bet your ass some five-hole golf courses would spring up.

[Dormie]

If there were millions of casual golfers who didn't have time for a full course but who were still willing to pay the same money, you can bet your ass some five-hole golf courses would spring up.

Ehh no. A lot of people only play a few times a year or maybe 1-2 times every couple months.

If anything people will pay a 9 hole rate. Which you might say is equated to LFR, but it's not, it's more like joining a normal ICC PuG in Wrath and staying for only half the bosses, because that's all you have time for.

People want what they can't have. That's the problem.

[-Psypher-]

The truth is that Blizzard lies about the % of people that raided. If only 1-5% of people raided in BC, they must of all been on my server.

Or there were a LOT more people playing the game than you thought. When I raided hardcore, and WoWJutsu was the WoWProgress of it's time, my BT-clearing, Sunwell-starting guild was apparently in the top 0.4% in progression of all players found on the Armory. I have no doubt that number would have been higher had they had LFR difficulties back then (although, I suspect a lot more of the restrictions regarding raiding had to do with attunements than anything else - the BT attunement was a very involved process for a new alt or replacement character).

[Odina]

Because they aren't willing to put in any time. Which is a requirement for content that isn't a joke.

They make excuse that they are being blocked out of raiding, when it's their own choice to not do it. I'd like to play golf every day, but that takes time. I don't demand that they make courses with 5 holes because I can't play 18.

This... I can't say how much this! I want to be server first pushing the bounds like when I got deaths demise title as well but I have other responsabilities now and I cannot commit to wow as I use to! As such it's not up to blizz to spoon feed me it's up to me to manage my free time and my game time better.... I love to raid as such found a group of like minded similar players that use to raid hard core got old got the reg 9-5 job, kids, wife/husband etc and we just do the one night a week raid. It's not up to blizz to change everythign to meet my changing life over the years it's up to me to re-evaluate my expectations out of the game with the time comitment I am willing to put in.

The customer is always right mentality is what is poison IMO as you see "well if they want my $$ they will do XYZ or ill unsub / stay unsubed" ... fine take your ball and go home...the argument is the same as kids that did that crap back in the day..play my way or ill leave...and the same today is true that was true back then... have fun going home the school yard is more fun without out just complaining about everything!

As for the origional post.. it's nto that raiders deserve mroe content it's that they blow through content so much faster due to the time comitment than casuals thus why so much is focused on them. These are generally the 365 day subs that stay on all the time and as such you need to find things for them to do that have high replayability.... untill you can find soemthing better than raids for those players that is what the peak of the PVE aspect of the game will be as anythign more casual will tarnish and be comsumed too fast to retain them!

[Glorious Leader]

People want what they can't have. That's the problem.

I agree. Like exclusivity in raiding and the removal of lfr.

[hyphnos]

Ehh no. A lot of people only play a few times a year or maybe 1-2 times every couple months.

If anything people will pay a 9 hole rate. Which you might say is equated to LFR, but it's not, it's more like joining a normal ICC PuG in Wrath and staying for only half the bosses, because that's all you have time for.

People want what they can't have. That's the problem.

No the problem is the reverse. Businesses fail when they expect customers to conform to their product, rather than the other way around. Blizzard wants what it seemingly can't have, a game where most of the development costs go into and all the progression content is raiding that isn't bleeding subscriptions.

[namelessone]

You are also wrong to assume that casual players unsubscribe the moment they stop playing. My girlfriend usually unsubscribes two-three months AFTER she stops playing.

[wych]

No the problem is the reverse. Businesses fail when they expect customers to conform to their product, rather than the other way around.

I'll point you towards a certain WoWcrendor video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbT-cW8Zb7o

What players want and what players need (to keep them playing) are completely different things

[Odina]

No the problem is the reverse. Businesses fail when they expect customers to conform to their product, rather than the other way around. Blizzard wants what it seemingly can't have, a game where most of the development costs go into and all the progression content is raiding that isn't bleeding subscriptions.

Casual players seem to want what they can't have...the same experience out of the game as the hardcores while not putting in as much time as they do. Like anything you want more out of it you got to put more in... In the subscription model that will be time, in a F2P that will be IRL $$ to power you up etc etc

You pay to be able to PLAY teh game ... how you play it and how much time you put in will determin what you get out of it! Subs may be on the decline but millions of others still are subbed so there doing somethign right! AS well who are we kidding... When raids were the most exclusive and there was no easy way to catch up is when WOW saw some of it's biggest growth and even then only a fraction use to raid... so if raiding wasnt the reason people were joining up I don't see how it's the reason they are leaving!

[Osmeric]

What players want and what players need (to keep them playing) are completely different things

Blizzard has seriously fumbled the ball on player commitment. With what I would call the betrayal of the average player in Cataclysm, and the continued second class treatment of said players in MoP, player loyalty has to be at a low. In that environment, if you don't give a player what he wants, he becomes likely to walk away, his willingness to cut Blizzard further slack having become exhausted.

[Glorious Leader]

Blizzard has seriously fumbled the ball on player commitment. With what I would call the betrayal of the average player in Cataclysm, and the continued second class treatment of said players in MoP, player loyalty has to be at a low. In that environment, if you don't give a player what he wants, he becomes likely to walk away, his willingness to cut Blizzard further slack having become exhausted.

That is pretty much the definition of a casual player. They are simple willing to tolerate less bullshit from Blizzard. Wether it's Blizzard making things take far more time or making it far more difficult to play the game or taking things away from them or constant balance changes or you name it really.

- - - Updated - - -

Casual players seem to want what they can't have...the same experience out of the game as the hardcores while not putting in as much time as they do. Like anything you want more out of it you got to put more in... In the subscription model that will be time, in a F2P that will be IRL $$ to power you up etc etc

You pay to be able to PLAY teh game ... how you play it and how much time you put in will determin what you get out of it! Subs may be on the decline but millions of others still are subbed so there doing somethign right! AS well who are we kidding... When raids were the most exclusive and there was no easy way to catch up is when WOW saw some of it's biggest growth and even then only a fraction use to raid... so if raiding wasnt the reason people were joining up I don't see how it's the reason they are leaving!

No hardcore players want what they can't have.. a return to tiered raiding model where most of the production of content goes towards them and casuals gets nothing out of it. The developers want this to I think actually but obviously know they can't justify it. Casual players simple leave when the game is no longer fun for them as they have been doing en masse.

You pay to be able to play the game... but if the game is no longer suited to your lifestyle then you simple leave. If it requires or asks more of you in terms of time investment (as it did in mists) and you are unable or unwilling to put the time in then you are more likely to leave. Of course for Blizzard that's a problem but I think alot of the disconnect comes from some people in game not understanding that you actually need other folks playing and that the developers have to be concerned with them even if you don't. I'll spare you the pain of pointing out how ludicrious the idea that exclusive raids= higher subscription gains that's been discussed ad nauseum. Raiding wasn't the reason people are joining up (most of them didn't even hit mx lvl) but when the developers spend all that time and money on max level content that is raids in liue of other content it becomes the reason people leave.

[namelessone]

Casual players seem to want what they can't have...the same experience out of the game as the hardcores while not putting in as much time as they do.

And this is where you are wrong. Many hardcores seem to hold this opinion, out of overblown sense of self-importance perhaps. All Casuals want is to have an ability to advance their character in a meaningful way, that wouldn't involve organized group play. The only meaningful way to advance character at top level in WoW is gear. I won't speak for all casuals, but I'm sure most don't care how YOU advance your character. You prefer hardcore raids - fine! But if you say that your preferred way should be the BEST or the ONLY way to advance character, you are being a selfish ahole.

[Odina]

That is pretty much the definition of a casual player. They are simple willing to tolerate less bullshit from Blizzard. Wether it's Blizzard making things take far more time or making it far more difficult to play the game or taking things away from them or constant balance changes or you name it really.

No thats the definition of a picky customer that has "the client is always right" style of mentality where if the company is not doing what they think they should do then "the company sucks there gonna go bankrupt like this becuase there not listening to ME the PAYING CUSTOMER!!!" .... yet here they are still holding on to millions of subs....sure they lost some but for a game this old to still have millions of subs at the end of what you claim are 2 of the worst develped for casuals then they are doing something very right!

Raiding wasn't the reason people are joining up (most of them didn't even hit mx lvl) but when the developers spend all that time and money on max level content that is raids in liue of other content it becomes the reason people leave.

I agree raiding is not what brought them in but it's also no what is makign them leave. News flash look at all teh major patch releases over wows life span... see soemthign in common? O LOOK A RAID the major focus of development and the big chunk of $$ was always thrown at raiding it's nothign new!

[Glorious Leader]

No thats the definition of a picky customer that has "the client is always right" style of mentality where if the company is not doing what they think they should do then "the company sucks there gonna go bankrupt like this becuase there not listening to ME the PAYING CUSTOMER!!!" .... yet here they are still holding on to millions of subs....sure they lost some but for a game this old to still have millions of subs at the end of what you claim are 2 of the worst develped for casuals then they are doing something very right!




I agree raiding is not what brought them in but it's also no what is makign them leave. News flash look at all teh major patch releases over wows life span... see soemthign in common? O LOOK A RAID the major focus of development and the big chunk of $$ was always thrown at raiding it's nothign new!

It's absolutely what's making them leave. Or better yet it's the focus the developers have put on raiding when for most of the players raiding was never a thing or not something they ever had interest in. Instead of spending resources and money on doing other things for those players, making actual casual content they'd rather shove everyone into raiding which is turning them off. At least thats part of it. It's a host of factors but the whole raid or fucking die model is a real turn off.

No it's not a picky customer (which is stupid in and of itself being a customer involves choices so all customers are picky), it's the definition of a casual customer and increasingly for Blizzard a dissatisfied customer. You can plug your ears and scream in ignorance about this or you can accept the current raid or die model is not holding players and GENUINE alternatives should be offered. Not simple the lip service that the developers offer as alternatives.

[Odina]

that wouldn't involve organized group play..

say it with me

MMORPG

MMO as in the oposite of solo playstyle games...

As well raids arent the only way to advance your cahrecter! You can pvp, you can level up professions, you can get achienvements, you can raid, you can get mog gear, brawlers guild, etc.

The only meaningful way to advance character at top level PVE in WoW is gear. If you are looking at PVE charecter progress as the only progress then you have a couple of venues to use if YOU are personally placing all advancements on raiding gear then you are the one that is stuck on it!

I consider myself to be on a casual play scheduel and I would love to be able to get more powerful but for a totaly different reason that you probably want to. I want more power to help my TEAM get through the raid better, faster, cleaner... you seem to want more gear so YOU are more powerfull....yet I'm selfish?

[marathal]

Because they aren't willing to put in any time. Which is a requirement for content that isn't a joke.

They make excuse that they are being blocked out of raiding

When I raided during ICC, perhaps it is failing memory, but getting the gear needed to raid without being labeled as a carry, was simpler, and the difference in what you got out of your gear was much closer than it is now. 10 levels in gear are huge differences in damage/healing now. I still play about the same amount of time as I did 4 years ago, however it feels like there is more needing to be done to be able to raid taking up more time.

Lets look at it another way. Is a Random BG = Arena, not even close. Is LFR = Heroic raiding. Absolutely not. Is a Regular Dungeon the same as a Challenge mode? While they are all aspect of the game with similarities they are all different. I enjoy PvP every so often, I do not expect everyone else to have to PvP because I do. Don't look at it like Blizz taking away from your aspect of the game. Look at it as them offering a new version of that content for other players. If you want to spend 30+ hours a week playing that's your choice, after working 40 hours and spending 10+ driving, taking care of my house, and helping family out on weekends, I like having LFR to do. It is at least at this point in Seige, challenging and new enough for me, and I enjoy it. It fits the amount of time I have available to play in a week.

[Tomana]

People want what they can't have. That's the problem.

You mean like the feudal model of BC financing? Yeah, sure, they can't have that now, tough luck

[Glorious Leader]

As well raids arent the only way to advance your cahrecter! You can pvp, you can level up professions, you can get achienvements, you can raid, you can get mog gear, brawlers guild, etc.

The only meaningful way to advance character at top level PVE in WoW is gear. If you are looking at PVE charecter progress as the only progress then you have a couple of venues to use if YOU are personally placing all advancements on raiding gear then you are the one that is stuck on it!

PVP is one way but for some reason pvp has very little appeal. My suspicion is that grinding losses is painful. Random queing for a bg suffers from the same problem that random queing for a hard dungeon did. Actually maybe even worse because it requires far more coordination than any hard dungeon ever did.

Professions are potentially one avenue but they require raids mats (back to raiding) and exorbitant amounts of gold and are generally really weak and limited by comparison.

Achievements do now give you play power nor does brawlers guild or mog gear. Those are not serious forms of character advancement, that's just you trying to keep all the gear for yourself and nothing for other people. Basically raiding is the only serious way to progress your character and that's by design. All the alternatives cannot be competitive and are not designed to be competitve because raiding (more specifically lfr) has to be only game in town. If it wasn't, if alternatives existed that pulled people away from lfr then raiding would go back to being not economical to produce. This is why raiding is at least in part responsible for the subscription loss. it sucks up so much of the budget that people have to be forced into it.

It's not individual behavior that you are pointing out it is basically the developers and the entirety of the game. Players are conditioned from 1-90 to chase character power and at lvl 90 character power is GEAR. That's it. The developers know this to and they design the game with it in mind.

[wych]

PVP is one way but for some reason pvp has very little appeal. My suspicion is that grinding losses is painful. Random queing for a bg suffers from the same problem that random queing for a hard dungeon did. Actually maybe even worse because it requires far more coordination than any hard dungeon ever did.

Professions are potentially one avenue but they require raids mats (back to raiding) and exorbitant amounts of gold and are generally really weak and limited by comparison.

Achievements do now give you play power nor does brawlers guild or mog gear. Those are not serious forms of character advancement, that's just you trying to keep all the gear for yourself and nothing for other people.

Out of interest if next expansion Blizzard released this model

Gear available via raiding through the expansion ILevel: 700, 725, 750

Gear available via whatever progression method you come up with: 600, 625, 650

Would you be happy? Or are you angry raiders get better gear than you?