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  1. #1

    [Guardian] Stats question

    Hi,
    I use guardian as my offspec and I'm a bit confused about the crit cap. I read somewhere that the crit cap is 79% and that is reachable with actual ilvl.
    I have some questions, its really 79% the crit cap?
    i have bad juju(normal) and renataki(hc), should i look to my crit when they both proc?
    and if i reach the crit cap wich stat should i start to stack?

    than you in advance

  2. #2
    I have some questions, its really 79% the crit cap?
    Softcap, yes.

    i have bad juju(normal) and renataki(hc), should i look to my crit when they both proc?
    No.

    and if i reach the crit cap wich stat should i start to stack?
    Haste.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranks View Post
    Hi,
    I use guardian as my offspec and I'm a bit confused about the crit cap. I read somewhere that the crit cap is 79% and that is reachable with actual ilvl.
    I have some questions, its really 79% the crit cap?
    i have bad juju(normal) and renataki(hc), should i look to my crit when they both proc?
    and if i reach the crit cap wich stat should i start to stack?

    than you in advance
    Crit soft cap will be easily reachable even in Flex gear.

    Normally you could argue about going haste or mastery after crit cap.

    But cause you go for crit to get rage and with tnc proccing more often with more haste haste will be the stat to go. With 4piece you can never have enough rage. Not saying you shouldnt go mastery its a good stat to go for but once you hit crit soft cap haste will be so good. The synergy with the crit soft cap and our 4piece outweighs mastery.

    If you are not confidend you have a good rage management overall mastery will be a bit better in some situations.

  4. #4
    Ive never understood how getting THAT much rage is beneficial... I hit 67% crit (bearform) and was swimming in rage, with frenzied regen just never seeming to heal enough for the damage I'm taking.

    I've actually switched over to reforging for Mastery > Crit, while keeping crit gems, down to 60% crit.. still having NO problems using all my Savage Defense charges with having some spare rage for emergancy Frenzied Regen healing..

    Something alot of people don't seem to understand about mastery//armor is it works alot like resiliance..eg; each point is actually worth more the higher you get it..

    Went from something like 72% armor mitigation to 75% armor mitgation.
    If you assume bosses hitting for around 1mil.. you go from taking 280,000 a swing, to 250,000.
    Visually you only see a 3% increase in armor mitigation.
    Mathmatically, you are getting a 10.7143% increase in mitigation (( ( New - Old ) / Old )) = %change. Ignore the negative mark in your calculator.

    TLDR; if your not having rage problems, you don't need more crit or haste. -- If you like smooth, go for mastery, if you want RNG, go dodge.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nalis/advanced

  5. #5
    Something alot of people don't seem to understand about mastery//armor is it works alot like resiliance..eg; each point is actually worth more the higher you get it..
    It's actually worth the same amount, not more. TTL increases linearly from armor gains. The problem with Mastery is that it's worse than Stamina even for physical TTL, and doesn't effect non-physical, but its saving grace is that you can get it as secondary stats on gear where you can't get extra Stamina.

    Went from something like 72% armor mitigation to 75% armor mitgation.
    You're not including suppression.

    TLDR; if your not having rage problems, you don't need more crit or haste. -- If you like smooth, go for mastery, if you want RNG, go dodge.
    Never, EVER go Dodge.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    TTL increases linearly from armor gains. T


    You're not including suppression.


    Never, EVER go Dodge.
    I hate going dodge myself.. but the guides on THESE forums recomend it for some crazy reason..???

    - I don't include suppression...?? I'm not sure what you mean.. I'm aware the boss is higher level then me, re; crit suppression? which is -3%. I was simply stating my char sheet crit, don't care about the 3% suppression as I'm getting plenty of rage.. not sure if thats what you meant?

    and.. lastly, the nub comment, what does TTL mean //sigh..

    ---------------
    and to try to re-iterate my point;
    I lost 5% crit.
    I gained 3% char sheet mitigation, which was actually ~10% less damage taken (went from 280,000 dmg taken a swing, to 250,000 dmg taken a swing)
    I found this to be worth it, as I am not having any problems with gaining enough rage for Savage defense AND Frenzied regen as needed.

    I don't disagree with you about mastery being useless for heavy spell fights.. but the last TRUE fight we had of this nature was Leishi.

    Fights in this tier RE: high spell or no high spell.
    -Immersus tank debuff, you only take one stack, in heroic its 900k spell dmg.. which barskin +boneshield will be up for, and bears -25% magic dmg taken.. AND I have around 1.1m hp.
    -Protectors; very little here is hardcore spell dmg to tanks.. perhaps Rooks stun mechanic.. but barkskin can cover every other one.. and there is quite a bit of physical here.
    -Norushen - the tank debuff is physical related here.
    -Sha of pride - no serious tank damage here
    -Galrakas - all physical from many mobs, shaman casters are interuptable.. boss damage is high melee with some fire damage, but tankswap is at low stacks.. so..
    -Darkshaman - depends which you tank, either high physical or every 10sec or so a 400k frostbolt.
    -Nazgrim is VERY high physical, with a 3mil hit as well. I'll take my mastery build +GEMs for this guy..
    -Malkorok is very physical, and debuff is +%Physical damage taken.. tankswap at 15 stacks ish.
    -Spoils is all over the place
    -Thok is high physical with breath mechanics.. better to use cooldowns for, and/or the trinket with %Aoe dmg reduc.
    -Siegecrafter is a bit more magical then others, but still not that crazy to avoid mastery for.
    -Garrosh is insanely physical, with a high dmg spelldmg dot for P2+ on top of that.. Still prefer mastery.

  7. #7
    TTL is Time To Live, and it's simply a method of figuring out how long you're going to live without external help (i.e. w/o a team of healers behind you). As Wow has progressed over the years, TTL probably means more than it used to since Blizz has moved away from boss damage from literally 1-2 shotting tanks to boss damage being smaller hits that add up to something nasty. I still remember this conversation being held back in WotLK with Festergut being able to 2-3 shot a bear depending upon how you geared.

    Anyways, with how Guardians work now, I'd almost say mastery matters more in an effective health (EH) scenario since smaller hits are easily negated with a well-timed FR... which is also why crit is valued more than mastery, since it helps us avoid more damage and heal it up all in one stat. Mastery is by no means useless, but it matters more when the individual hits have the potential to take out more of your total health. With the buff to stamina in 5.4, I'm pretty certain that stamina is likely more effective towards increasing your survival in such situations, especially since it works on both physical and magical damage. Heroic Nazgrim is probably the most extreme example of physical damage capable of one-shotting you... however, with the stamina buff, I can personally survive the Execute w/o a cooldown with 3 stacks of Sunder Armor (close to 4-stack), while in 5.3 I would've died with any stack of Sunder Armor.

    Yes, there's quite a bit of physical damage in SoO, however most of it is better dealt with rage generation stats. I'm not advocating the complete ignorance of mastery by a long shot, the stat is just overshadowed by other stats in the realm of TTL and EH.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  8. #8
    Stamina is just a zillion times better at doing the same thing basically. Which leaves you free to get plenty of RPS stats.

    The funny part is FR - while being less Rage efficient at handling damage - is actually more time efficient. Once you get ridiculous levels of RPS (like 570+) you can literally just spam FR all day and never die except to 1 shots.

    Of course it's a DPS loss to do that since you're never using Maul, but still.

  9. #9
    The reason Mastery is treated as meh is because with SoO we're almost physical damage reduction capped from armor; Mastery beyond that point does jack all. My Guardian set of mixed normal+heroic ToT and flex+normal SoO gear puts me at 73.41% or so physical damage reduction before Might.

    At least Stamina still improves effective health. But as Arielle said I'd rather be generating more Rage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    The reason Mastery is treated as meh is because with SoO we're almost physical damage reduction capped from armor; Mastery beyond that point does jack all. My Guardian set of mixed normal+heroic ToT and flex+normal SoO gear puts me at 73.41% or so physical damage reduction before Might.

    At least Stamina still improves effective health. But as Arielle said I'd rather be generating more Rage.
    You're close to 175110 armor? Dang, I'm down below 120000 with might .

    (175110 being the cap for raid bosses, just in case anyone doesn't get me).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The funny part is FR - while being less Rage efficient at handling damage - is actually more time efficient. Once you get ridiculous levels of RPS (like 570+) you can literally just spam FR all day and never die except to 1 shots.

    Of course it's a DPS loss to do that since you're never using Maul, but still.
    Let's not forget Tooth and Claw, either! Even before SoO gearing, RPS building allows liberal use of Maul and T&C procs (in a similar fashion to FR).

    To put it into perspectively, on heroic Juggernaut this week, I had an estimated 12mil T&C absorbs applied to the boss and I actually took under 9mil auto-attack damage while actively tanking (co-tank took over 25mil auto-attack damage, and our tanking time was roughly the same). Sure, some of that went towards my co-tank, but with how we deal with Crawler Mines I end up losing my Vengeance quite often during OT-downtime and Siege Mode. The point is that T&C is very important and powerful, and it's uptime can only be improved via RPS stats (for proc rate and for allowing rage for use) versus mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    You're close to 175110 armor? Dang, I'm down below 120000 with might .
    That's a bear who ate his Wheaties before raid! ...fortified with lots of iron- er, mastery?
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Crit soft cap will be easily reachable even in Flex gear.
    Right now i have some ToT H and N and a couple of SoO pieces and I have 58% crit unbuffed so I think i shoul be doing really bad or something.
    Can someone check my char and telling what it is?
    My armory is http://eu.battle.net/wow/es/characte...ranks/advanced. Will try to log off on my tank spec/equipment

    than you in advance

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranks View Post
    Right now i have some ToT H and N and a couple of SoO pieces and I have 58% crit unbuffed so I think i shoul be doing really bad or something.
    Can someone check my char and telling what it is?
    My armory is http://eu.battle.net/wow/es/characte...ranks/advanced. Will try to log off on my tank spec/equipment

    than you in advance
    With your gemming right now you are missing about 960 crit ratin(plus 50% you get ijn bearform). Plus your shoulders enchant is the stamina dodge one. which is another 100 crit. you should either run pure crit most bonuses you get are just wasted. Missing 480 crit to get 180 agility is not worth it at all.

    Also your bracers with agi on it. and exp on hands. could argue about feet entchant.

    And most of all what are you doing with your valor points. I mean the ratings you are missing by not upgrading anything is alot. the only thing upgraded is your cloak and thats happens automaticly once you use the item. If you upgrade your gear and chance some entchants and gems you might be able to hit the soft cap already.

    Ive never understood how getting THAT much rage is beneficial... I hit 67% crit (bearform) and was swimming in rage, with frenzied regen just never seeming to heal enough for the damage I'm taking.
    Im sitting at 79% crit right now and still want more rage, with tnc SD and FR. MAstery is a great stat and sometime I choose between haste and mastery after crit depends on boss. But with mastery you are relying on your healers to keep you alive. Sure for big hits amor is great. Butusing almost every tnc while keeping SD up ad using FR if needed, you will be able to survive on your own for longer time.


    Not to forget the once you are crit caped the question shouldnt be mastery or haste at the start but changing you entchants. Changing my bracer/legs and shoulder entchant to the tank ones is the first thing i want to do if I get more crit.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-09-24 at 09:46 AM.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i was once thiking about getting capped on dodge during SD , liklely not even possiable

    currently in 541 hgear i am only at about 67% crit so i got plenty of crit still to gain, i find myzelf at 100 rage with SD on cooldown and no procing mauls a lot, this is liekly becase i dont use FR a lot, as my healer keep my at 100% without to problems, i only use FR when i take single big hits, but evne if i dont the healrs top me off pretty quickly,

    maybe i should go for haste after i reach crit cap and then get the +40% healnig received glpyth (i do raid 25 man)
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  15. #15
    If I have understand correctly i should change:
    -all my gems to pure crit
    -enchant bracer to agility (already did it)
    -hands enchant to expertise
    -shoulder enchant to agi+crit
    -feet enchant to maybe agility?

    About my valor points, guardian is my offspec so I'm not using to much valor points to upgrade my items, I was lucky with my resto and a bit lazy earning them again and dont have to much but will start to do it again .

    Also for good reforgin should I use askmrrobot? Right now I have started to use reforgelite addond but I think im doing something wrong because it makes some stranges reforging

    thank you again
    Last edited by Tranks; 2013-09-24 at 09:56 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    i was once thiking about getting capped on dodge during SD , liklely not even possiable

    currently in 541 hgear i am only at about 67% crit so i got plenty of crit still to gain, i find myzelf at 100 rage with SD on cooldown and no procing mauls a lot, this is liekly becase i dont use FR a lot, as my healer keep my at 100% without to problems, i only use FR when i take single big hits, but evne if i dont the healrs top me off pretty quickly,

    maybe i should go for haste after i reach crit cap and then get the +40% healnig received glpyth (i do raid 25 man)
    If you have rage and you dont need it just use maul for dps.

    But to the glyph: The problem is in 25m with alotof hots it can be worth it but, you will be missing that FR when to top you of before something big is coming. Again Sitting at a 100% rage a few seconds is alot better than to die cause you only had like 85% hp and healers had to top of the group. Sure with DoC you also have a heal and if you take renewal but renewal has a 2 min cd and DoC is on gcd. Dont know about you or others but it feels like hours if the heal you need is on gcd to top you off.

    If I have understand correctly i should change:
    -all my gems to pure crityes
    -enchant bracer to agility (already did it)yes
    -hands enchant to expertiseyes but not mandatory doesnt really matter that much
    -shoulder enchant to agi+crityes
    -feet enchant to maybe agility?yes but again the difference is not that huge.

    About my valor points, guardian is my offspec so I'm not using to much valor points to upgrade my items, I was lucky with my resto and a bit lazy earning them again and dont have to much but will start to do it again .

    Also for good reforgin should I use askmrrobot? Right now I have started to use reforgelite addond but I think im doing something wrong because it makes some stranges reforging

    thank you again
    Im using reforgelite just put hit expertise and crit on top and after that haste(or mastery if you prefer).
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-09-24 at 10:05 AM.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i am not sure if ask mister robot uses the same way of thiking as the pro's on this forun,
    i personaly reforged simpely for hit / exp caps
    the rest i optimised for crit
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  18. #18
    AMR unfortunately most of the time is not updated to support the current theorycrafting and playstyle changes Elunedra, and from the sounds of it you are already doing everything perfectly.

    Crit > Hit Cap > Expertise Cap > Haste > Mastery > Dodge

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Never, EVER go Dodge.
    This caused a slight brouhaha when Jugggernaut's Crystal dropped on the first Juggernaut kill and the healers wanted me to take it. I explained that I would never equip it and it went to the DE pile.

    What will be the status of FR vs SD in SoO? My guess was that SD would always be better unless you needed FR to stay alive, but I saw one blog stating FR will overtake SD at high ilvls.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowa View Post
    AMR unfortunately most of the time is not updated to support the current theorycrafting and playstyle changes Elunedra, and from the sounds of it you are already doing everything perfectly.

    Crit > Hit Cap > Expertise Cap > Haste > Mastery > Dodge
    ATM, Hit/Expertise cap at higher gear lvls is MORE important then crit. Why? We can already hit the low-crit cap (Assuming 0 hit/expertise) VERY easily. Granted, with that priority, you would most likely be hit capped and close to expertise hard cap- but you might as well go for the hard hit/expertise cap before crit. Its about the same RPS wise, and better DPS wise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    This caused a slight brouhaha when Jugggernaut's Crystal dropped on the first Juggernaut kill and the healers wanted me to take it. I explained that I would never equip it and it went to the DE pile.

    What will be the status of FR vs SD in SoO? My guess was that SD would always be better unless you needed FR to stay alive, but I saw one blog stating FR will overtake SD at high ilvls.
    Yea, crystal is pretty terrible.

    In terms of SDvsFR, as long as you are taking ~500k physical damage over 6 seconds, 1 SD will likely reduce more damage then FR can heal. Of course, this number will both increase as your gear rises (Due to ever increasing amounts of stamina, making the lower FR cap increase, and potentially overtaking your vengeance cap on fights you will outgear, I.E normal clears once you are 6/14 heroic or so), but, especially in heroics, SD will still be better to use then FR. A quick way to find out would be to look at your FR heal level, compare it to the amount of melee damage coming in, and if melee damage >2.1x FR heal over 6 seconds, SD is the ability to use. (As you add more magical damage to a fight, I.E Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shamen, ect, the value of SD vs FR increases)
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