[Holy Paladin] Divine Purpose versus Holy Avenger - the math (WIP)

[PosPosPos]

This is approaching the DP vs HA argument from a purely sustained point of view. Obviously HA is accepted to be the premiere choice when you require more control over burst healing, which is a major point of contention for us holy paladins since we lack burst healing tools compared to every other healer.

I got bored today and decided to find out how much exactly I am losing in terms of sustained healing, if at all, when running HA over DP.

Assuming
1) 0% haste(includes not using Seal of Insight)
2) 0% crit(includes no Infusion of Light procs)
3) No trinkets
4) DP always procs every four 3 HP EFs
5) The optimal rotation of HR x2 HS EF excepting when HA is up

Over a 2 minute period

Without either talent

HR HR HS EF = 8 seconds x 15

= 120 seconds

= 30 HR 15 HS 15 EF

With DP

HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
Free EF 1.5
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
Free EF 1.5
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
Free EF 1.5
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
Free EF 1.5
HR HR HS EF 8


total

28 HR 14 HS 18 EF

118 sec


With HA

1.3HS EF 3
1.3HR EF 4
1.3HR EF 4
1.3HS EF 3
1.3HR EF 4

HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR HS EF 8
HR HR 5

total

29.9 HR 14.6 HS 17 EF

119 sec

So for a short 2 minute period, we have:

No talent
30 HR 15 HS 15 EF
DP
28 HR 14 HS 18 EF
HA
29.9 HR 14.6 HS 17 EF

Do note that, with the assumptions made(especially for DP), after the initial buildup for DP, one only requires an average of 3 rounds HR x2 HS EF to generate towards the next DP proc since the previous bonus proc contributes to proccing DP as well.

If anyone is able to assist with calculations for

* longer periods of fights
* factoring haste and crit
* more complex rotations than the "optimal" HR x2 HS rotation
it would be very appreciated and would go a long way to finding out the effects each talent have on our sustained healing.

[Deleted]

Doesn't matter, DP is random and HA is always useful and grants additional 30% generator healing for 18 seconds. HA wins.

[PosPosPos]

Doesn't matter, DP is random and HA is always useful and grants additional 30% generator healing for 18 seconds. HA wins.

Just interested in the overall boost in throughput between both talents.

If DP gave a significantly higher boost in throughput compared to HA(say, 5-10% average increase over any given fight), would it become more useful?

[Kerfax]

Just interested in the overall boost in throughput between both talents.

If DP gave a significantly higher boost in throughput compared to HA(say, 5-10% average increase over any given fight), would it become more useful?

Yes. If say it was a trade between 35 EFs with DP and the still 29 with EF (or whatever number of EFs made DP>HA), then I would take DP for any fight without burst mechanics. Since that isn't the case (based on your math theyre about even), I'd much rather have the control over that throughput that HA offers. This will be even more important to me once I have access to the four piece and can stack HA and DF every time.

[nightfalls]

I used DP on two fights in Throne of Thunder, both of which HA were also just as good if not better anyway on (Primordius, Twin Consorts). Easy fights, either way, were easy.

This tier I can't see any fight DP is better on, period. Might be wrong, but HA seems more useful for each and every one of the 14 fights. This is just qualitative. Quantitatively as you have already shown they are "roughly equal" in a constant scenario meaning control always wins.

[Varabently]

I run DP just because I don't like tracking a fourth cooldown, but that's a pretty poor reason TBH. I think the other DP users are probably a bit lazy like me and don't want to try to figure out when the best time to use it is, how to integrate it with other cooldowns, etc. It's just one more button to remember and press for me, so I am sticking with DP for now.

It also is more fun because it's random and sometimes you get 4 or 5 back to back, which not only helps throughput, but helps with mana too (you end up going several sec onds without casting). It's reliable and reminds me of DPSing, which is more of an interesting playstyle for me. As far as HA being better, I feel like it almost assuredly is. It gives you on demand healing you can use when you need it. The slow, steady damage isn't typically what kills people. It's the quick, bursty damage, or those times when a healer is gone for a bit (maybe when they go into the portal on Norushen or whatever) that you need that throughput.

Another issue that isn't really captured in your analysis is that the DP procs could get wasted, depending on proc rates and fights. You may get 5 in a row you don't need, then not get any for a couple minutes. That's painful. It's sort of like mastery versus crit. Even 10% crit would be a huge bonus, but it's still RNG. 10% crit vs 5% mastery seems like a no brainer to me. Mastery is guaranteed. Both might be overheal, but you can count on mastery.

[PosPosPos]

I run DP just because I don't like tracking a fourth cooldown, but that's a pretty poor reason TBH. I think the other DP users are probably a bit lazy like me and don't want to try to figure out when the best time to use it is, how to integrate it with other cooldowns, etc. It's just one more button to remember and press for me, so I am sticking with DP for now.

It also is more fun because it's random and sometimes you get 4 or 5 back to back, which not only helps throughput, but helps with mana too (you end up going several sec onds without casting). It's reliable and reminds me of DPSing, which is more of an interesting playstyle for me. As far as HA being better, I feel like it almost assuredly is. It gives you on demand healing you can use when you need it. The slow, steady damage isn't typically what kills people. It's the quick, bursty damage, or those times when a healer is gone for a bit (maybe when they go into the portal on Norushen or whatever) that you need that throughput.

Another issue that isn't really captured in your analysis is that the DP procs could get wasted, depending on proc rates and fights. You may get 5 in a row you don't need, then not get any for a couple minutes. That's painful. It's sort of like mastery versus crit. Even 10% crit would be a huge bonus, but it's still RNG. 10% crit vs 5% mastery seems like a no brainer to me. Mastery is guaranteed. Both might be overheal, but you can count on mastery.

Yes, my calculations are purely vaccuum-based.

In a real situation, DP procs can proc back to back during a phase of time where the procs are not needed, and vice versa.

Looking at the difference between the resultant HR/HS/EF casts for each talent suggests that, at least without factoring in haste crit and other passive procs, the bonus output for both HA and DP is close enough and comparable.

On the other hand, the numbers might swing solidly in favor of HA when one factors in haste, crit and IoL, which allows us to boost HA further than it would benefit DP. Then again, there are also (quite a few) situations where you would want to hold on to HA to line up with bursty raid damage. This means that it could swing both ways depending on the fight.

More in-depth calculations and diverse scenarios will have to be done to see whether there is still indeed no clear winner in terms of pure throughput, which would in this case conclude that HA is unanimously better for a majority of situations at the very least by virtue of having far superior control.

[Lucyrotten]

Except that pure throughput in a vacuum is likely the most useless piece of information anyone could come up with. We don't heal in a vacuum. There are distinct damage phases and recovery phases in every single fight. I can think of zero situations since pvp 4pc in T14 on Garalon that DP was good.

[PosPosPos]

Except that pure throughput in a vacuum is likely the most useless piece of information anyone could come up with. We don't heal in a vacuum. There are distinct damage phases and recovery phases in every single fight. I can think of zero situations since pvp 4pc in T14 on Garalon that DP was good.

...Hence I was asking for assistance with calculating for situations like that?

DP is a talent that functions as closely as possible to one that provides a flat x% boost to healing the whole fight.

HA is a talent that functions as flat y% boost to healing over a dynamic period of time and frequency.

I wish to find out if DP is possibly significantly numerically stronger than HA even in fights with "distinct damage and recovery phases".

Is that so hard to understand?

The same reasoning applies to theorycrafting the "best" stat priority for holy pallys. You calculate throughput in a vacuum, then factor in what might happen in a practical situation, do you not?

[Deja Thoris]

Whats the point of doing a calculation when you know what the answer is regardless?

People have explained that HA is a throughput stat. You can plan for its use at certain times in encounters. That alone makes it far more useful than DP where you can get 5 procs in a row in a lull in damage.
The value of increasing throughput at key points in a fight far outweighs having a higher sustained HPS.

[Sadinar]

I wish you had done this earlier, as I think the HA vs DP debate was more important last tier when EF would proc mastery, making DP procs under light damage still valuable for putting up shields and healing during light damage phases, allowing large shields to be built up before damage occurs. However now that EF doesn't do that, its hard to justify DP given that it procs throughout a fight, not just when you need it.