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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Santoryu View Post
    No.

    If you read a 450 page book during daylight and then read the same book again in darker conditions (harder) it doesn't mean you've read 2 different 450-page books.
    Thats true. However, if you read the childrens edition of The Lord of the Rings, and then later on read the unabridged version, they are different books. Obviously not completely. Your analogy is tantamount to saying "If you raid normal modes, then raid normal modes without addons (harder) you haven't done different content"
    >SIX A-BONG SIX A-BONG OLLY JOLLY IT'S SIX-A-BONG

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Ofc it is same content just ,,harder,, difficulty. And tahts problem of WoW here isnt any exclusive content. Everythingis opne for everyone. .
    Heroic mode is exclusive content. Bosses have extra mechanics, different loot. I know it's a different difficulty but it's still, undeniably, "exclusive" for heroic raiders.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Heroic mode is exclusive content. Bosses have extra mechanics, different loot. I know it's a different difficulty but it's still, undeniably, "exclusive" for heroic raiders.
    LFR has "exclusive" content just the same if you're looking for free loot, an exclusive lack of mechanics, bad players and a frustrating and unrewarding experience. That's something that can't be found in HM's

    It's not "exclusive" in the sense that people "aren't allowed" to do it. People with lower skill or odd schedules choose not to do it. Just like most HM raiders choose not to do LFR. To call HM content "exclusive" because people choose not to do it is like calling LFR exclusive because people choose not to do it.

    This "exclusion" is something the person puts on themselves, not the game.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    LFR has "exclusive" content just the same if you're looking for free loot, an exclusive lack of mechanics, bad players and a frustrating and unrewarding experience. That's something that can't be found in HM's

    It's not "exclusive" in the sense that people "aren't allowed" to do it. People with lower skill or odd schedules choose not to do it. Just like most HM raiders choose not to do LFR. To call HM content "exclusive" because people choose not to do it is like calling LFR exclusive because people choose not to do it.

    This "exclusion" is something the person puts on themselves, not the game.
    I would have said heroic mode is exclusive, based more on your guild, raidteam and ability to raid rather than purely choice. I wouldn't have said LFR being exclusive only to people willing to put up with it would really class it as exclusive (even if that is an achievement in itself)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I would have said heroic mode is exclusive, based more on your guild, raidteam and ability to raid rather than purely choice. I wouldn't have said LFR being exclusive only to people willing to put up with it would really class it as exclusive (even if that is an achievement in itself)
    The thing I don't understand about this idea that HM's are "exclusive" or "keeping people out" because people aren't good enough to do them, is that I've yet to find this mentality in any other game. It's like people log in to WoW, and the concept of competition is completely lost to them.

    Any game that has a competitive element has those who can, and those who can't. Imagine if this mentality was found in sports... "Guys, I really don't think I can run this ball all the way to the other side of this field with all those people in my way. Can we please have them stand aside so I can get there? It's not right that the other team is getting touchdowns and I'm not." Seriously, how many people would watch sports if that was how it worked?

    If you can't/don't want to do challenging content, that's all you, and I have no qualms with that. But when people who can't try to control people who can, it's just silly to me.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Heroic mode is exclusive content. Bosses have extra mechanics, different loot. I know it's a different difficulty but it's still, undeniably, "exclusive" for heroic raiders.
    Ehm no it is same content. Same boss, same instance = same content. Heroics are not exclusive anymore becous of LFR and flex. Loot is same you got only lower or higher numbers. Thats why for me pretty much raidin heroic stop being case. I lost reason to raid Hc. Why should i raid something what can see everybody els while being afk ? This is pretty much reason why i left game befor 5.4 there is nothing letf in game what should give me reason to tryhard again in hcs. When i play game i play it for compettive reason no for fun. If there isnt compettion in content wide there is no reason to play for me anymore. Thats why i start play League of Legends. I got my diamond league and i am in 0.2% of all palyers who got this (exclusive content) league. So now i can say that i am better player then rest 99.8 % of the comunity.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Imagine if this mentality was found in sports... "Guys, I really don't think I can run this ball all the way to the other side of this field with all those people in my way. Can we please have them stand aside so I can get there? It's not right that the other team is getting touchdowns and I'm not." Seriously, how many people would watch sports if that was how it worked?
    That's why there are different leagues. If someone really enjoys football, just because they're not playing in the pros should they not be able to play on their pub team or with their friends?? (Especially if they're monthly paying for the opportunity to be playing football)

    Or is it unfair to all the pro players that these people are playing "their" game in easier matches, and the whole of football should just be exclusive to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Heroics are not exclusive anymore becous of LFR and flex..
    By this logic they weren't exclusive because of normal mode. +NEWSFLASH Flex mode is basically old 10 man version, which was ALWAYS easier than 25 man version.. but no one ever had a problem with it back in wraith or said that it should be removed. In fact its removal and a shared lockout hurt the game badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    This is pretty much reason why i left game befor 5.4 there is nothing letf in game what should give me reason to tryhard again in hcs. When i play game i play it for compettive reason no for fun. If there isnt compettion in content wide there is no reason to play for me anymore.
    So you didn't do heroics anymore because you honestly felt that you were in the same competition as people doing LFR? You honestly think that someone downing LFR garrosh is the same prestige as downing heroic garrosh?
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2013-10-06 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    That's why there are different leagues. If someone really enjoys football, just because they're not playing in the pros should they not be able to play on their pub team or with their friends?? (Especially if they're monthly paying for the opportunity to be playing football)

    Or is it unfair to all the pro players that these people are playing "their" game in easier matches, and the whole of football should just be exclusive to them?
    This is exactly my point. Let the pro's play the pro game, let the minors play the minor game. The majority of arguments found are NOT from HM raiders demanding easy content be removed, it's from LFR players suggesting that HM content be dumbed down or removed so that they can play it or that others can't.

    I find it exciting to see top guilds succeed, and I don't understand why there's such a hatred for HM players instead of cheering them on, or being excited about their ability to do that content at a level of skill that they do.

    Do you see the issue?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    That's why there are different leagues. If someone really enjoys football, just because they're not playing in the pros should they not be able to play on their pub team or with their friends?? (Especially if they're monthly paying for the opportunity to be playing football)

    Or is it unfair to all the pro players that these people are playing "their" game in easier matches, and the whole of football should just be exclusive to them?

    - - - Updated - - -

    By this logic they weren't exclusive because of normal mode. +NEWSFLASH Flex mode is basically old 10 man version, which was ALWAYS easier than 25 man version.. but no one ever had a problem with it back in wraith or said that it should be removed. In fact its removal and a shared lockout hurt the game badly.

    So you didn't do heroics anymore because you honestly felt that you were in the same competition as people doing LFR? You honestly think that someone downing LFR garrosh is the same prestige as downing heroic garrosh?

    Since you are one of those casuals what pretty much starter in WOTLK or <. In Tbc there wasnt any stupid normals, heroic, flex, ... There was one single raid with content what last whole time till next patch or even more. Only few people saw end game = ye content was exclusive and i had reason to raid end game. Now why should i raid HC when i can kill same boss in LFR while eating my sandwich while using 1 buttom for dmg.

    No i stop play becousu players now can get same content as me kill same boses get same gear as me while being afk in LFR. I will quote Kungen one of pretty good players what left this game with words ,,WoW becom game for kids,, what is pretty muách what i also think.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    This is exactly my point. Let the pro's play the pro game, let the minors play the minor game. The majority of arguments found are NOT from HM raiders demanding easy content be removed, it's from LFR players suggesting that HM content be dumbed down or removed so that they can play it or that others can't.

    I find it exciting to see top guilds succeed, and I don't understand why there's such a hatred for HM players instead of cheering them on, or being excited about their ability to do that content at a level of skill that they do.

    Do you see the issue?
    OH sorry, yeah HM should in no way be dumbed down for other players. I would say the IDEA of a LF Heroic Mode (at the same difficulty level), if people can't raid on set days times etc, wouldn't be so ridiculous, apart from that there'd be no way you could possibly implement it, and the idea in itself is a bit self-defeating.

    If anything I think they should make Heroic mode endless, with league tables! So once you've downed everyone, the next time you have a %buff increase to all the bosses damage and health continually.

  11. #51
    4 versions of the same stuff is the same stuff IMO. I think it works with 2 versions possibly, but 3 or 4 is over kill.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Since you are one of those casuals what pretty much starter in WOTLK or <. In Tbc there wasnt any stupid normals, heroic, flex, ... There was one single raid with content what last whole time till next patch or even more. Only few people saw end game = ye content was exclusive and i had reason to raid end game. Now why should i raid HC when i can kill same boss in LFR while eating my sandwich while using 1 buttom for dmg.

    No i stop play becousu players now can get same content as me kill same boses get same gear as me while being afk in LFR. I will quote Kungen one of pretty good players what left this game with words ,,WoW becom game for kids,, what is pretty muách what i also think.
    So basically you want most people to be stuck doing nothing but admiring you and stroking your e-peen in major cities because they can't dedicate as much time to a game as you.

    Heroic mode is there if you want a challenge, you aren't forced to do LFR or Flex

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    4 versions of the same stuff is the same stuff IMO. I think it works with 2 versions possibly, but 3 or 4 is over kill.
    But they're aimed at different people.

    LFR - people to just drop in and play for a couple hours
    Flex- casual players to play with friends and create PuGs
    Normal - average raiders
    Heroic - challenge for best average raiders and hardcore players

    It's not 4 levels of difficulty to be done by the same people.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Since you are one of those casuals what pretty much starter in WOTLK or .
    LoL Nice guess, try again!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    In Tbc there wasnt any stupid normals, heroic, flex, ... There was one single raid with content what last whole time till next patch or even more.
    If it took you the whole patch for the single raid, I can see why you're so anti-lfr. Raid tactics NOW (heroic more so) are more challenging and punishing than ever they were in Vanilla and BC. Vanilla, if you ignored un-killable glitch bosses, would be a cake walk even for LFR players now. The great 40 man raids people hype up normally had at least 5-10 AFKers. There's just SO much more transparency on fights, full detailed descriptions of what to do and videos showing you every step of the way that it makes them possible for a lot more guilds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Only few people saw end game = ye content was exclusive and i had reason to raid end game. Now why should i raid HC when i can kill same boss in LFR while eating my sandwich while using 1 buttom for dmg..
    Why should I buy a Ferrari when anyone can just drive round in an old Skoda? Why should I go and see a concert in a stadium when other people have seen the band down the town hall? Why should I go to a good restaurant, when everyone else gets to eat food at McDonalds for a fraction of the price? Why should someone pay Pro Sport in the championships, when any casual can just play the sport down at the local park? (do you want me to keep going?)

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    So basically you want most people to be stuck doing nothing but admiring you and stroking your e-peen in major cities because they can't dedicate as much time to a game as you.

    Heroic mode is there if you want a challenge, you aren't forced to do LFR or Flex

    - - - Updated - - -



    But they're aimed at different people.

    LFR - people to just drop in and play for a couple hours
    Flex- casual players to play with friends and create PuGs
    Normal - average raiders
    Heroic - challenge for best average raiders and hardcore players

    It's not 4 levels of difficulty to be done by the same people.
    And why should they have to be stuck rofl ? Nobady hold them back to raids heroics. And pls stop making this escuses about not having time for raiding. With average 6-9 hours per week you can finish heroic contetn till new patch comes out very easly. Hardcore raiders doesnt sped 5515151 hourse in hcs. Those players are very skillfull palyers and dont need so many hours as casual need for progress. Hardcore raiders actualy finish hc raids in matter of 3-4 weeks then they farm raid 3 hourse per week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    LoL Nice guess, try again! If it took you the whole patch for the single raid, I can see why you're so anti-lfr. Raid tactics NOW (heroic more so) are more challenging and punishing than ever they were in Vanilla and BC. Vanilla, if you ignored un-killable glitch bosses, would be a cake walk even for LFR players now. The great 40 man raids people hype up normally had at least 5-10 AFKers. There's just SO much more transparency on fights, full detailed descriptions of what to do and videos showing you every step of the way that it makes them possible for a lot more guilds.

    Why should I buy a Ferrari when anyone can just drive round in an old Skoda? Why should I go and see a concert in a stadium when other people have seen the band down the town hall? Why should I go to a good restaurant, when everyone else gets to eat food at McDonalds for a fraction of the price? Why should someone pay Pro Sport in the championships, when any casual can just play the sport down at the local park? (do you want me to keep going?)
    I am not talking about difficulty holy ***. I am talking about accessibility of content. Yes hc raids are more difficult then in vannila or tbc but same time you have this shity LFR verision what you can done while being afk. There sould be 1 raid 1 difficulty (heroics). You can do it? Good for you. You cant do it? Too bad you will not see this boss and you will not get this gear.

    Why should I buy a Ferrari when anyone can just drive round in an old Skoda? Maybe becous you will get some nice females? And you will be able join more classi society? You will get extra content for such thinks. But no in WoW you get nothing worth of doing heroics. Just some better gear with higher numbers but it is same piece of armor what drop in LFR. Achievements ? nobady give *** about them.
    Last edited by Sinndor; 2013-10-06 at 03:20 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post

    But they're aimed at different people.

    LFR - people to just drop in and play for a couple hours
    Flex- casual players to play with friends and create PuGs
    Normal - average raiders
    Heroic - challenge for best average raiders and hardcore players

    It's not 4 levels of difficulty to be done by the same people.

    They are not really aimed at different people though. The goal is to get you to run the "next level" of the same stuff, and then the next level after that. Plus LFR was probably a bad idea for the "casual/bad" crowd, most of the time I see LFR guys, it's people that play a lot, but just aren't good. At that point these people would be better off with 5 mans or some other form of content instead.

  16. #56
    Being able to choose is never bad. Blizzard is giving you more options.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    They are not really aimed at different people though. The goal is to get you to run the "next level" of the same stuff, and then the next level after that. Plus LFR was probably a bad idea for the "casual/bad" crowd, most of the time I see LFR guys, it's people that play a lot, but just aren't good. At that point these people would be better off with 5 mans or some other form of content instead.
    They are aimed at different people, Blizzard themselves said this.

    LFR is aimed at people who otherwise wouldn't have the time to raid, flex is to replace the "10 man ICC" PuGs that disappeared. 4 levels is not overkill since the vast majority won't run 4

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    And why should they have to be stuck rofl ? Nobady hold them back to raids heroics. And pls stop making this escuses about not having time for raiding. With average 6-9 hours per week you can finish heroic contetn till new patch comes out very easly. Hardcore raiders doesnt sped 5515151 hourse in hcs. Those players are very skillfull palyers and dont need so many hours as casual need for progress. Hardcore raiders actualy finish hc raids in matter of 3-4 weeks then they farm raid 3 hourse per week..
    Not everybody can dedicate 3 nights a week to a raiding schedule, so the option is either give them their own content to do or have them quit. Guess which one Blizzard chose.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    If you don't want to do easier content, that's all you, and I have no qualms with that. But when people who don't want to do easy content try to control people who can, it's just silly to me.
    There, flipped that argument around for you, it goes both ways, i don't like it when some guy tells me that i should stop playing the game he wants tailored solely to his tastes.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    They are aimed at different people, Blizzard themselves said this.

    LFR is aimed at people who otherwise wouldn't have the time to raid, flex is to replace the "10 man ICC" PuGs that disappeared. 4 levels is not overkill since the vast majority won't run 4

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not everybody can dedicate 3 nights a week to a raiding schedule, so the option is either give them their own content to do or have them quit. Guess which one Blizzard chose.

    I would not believe everything blizz tells you lol. For example, as a heroic raider, blizz put upgrades in flex mode (a beginner mode) that are better than last tier's stuff, so that you'd be silly not to run it. But the bigger picture is that blizz has repeatedly said "well once you finish one level, go to the next"... not really sure if that means it's aimed at different people. The main point though is that once you are done with a certain mode, you are rewarded by getting the exact same stuff. Not sure if that's really content - perhaps it is? I dunno, but as a long time blizzard fan we wouldn't get something like that before, it's somewhat disappointing to long term wow players.


    Not everyone *has* to raid. Give people content they can enjoy, as it stands right now, there's very little casual about a place like LFR. Hell even the queue timer is like 45 minutes. What casual guy do you know that has time for that?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    There, flipped that argument around for you, it goes both ways, i don't like it when some guy tells me that i should stop playing the game he wants tailored solely to his tastes.
    You haven't flipped any argument. I've always made the argument that people should enjoy what they enjoy and let others enjoy what they enjoy. If every one is having fun doing what they're doing, there's nothing to change just because someone else may be enjoying something different. My wording was simply referring specifically to those suggesting difficult content be removed or dumbed down because it makes the bad players self conscious.
    Last edited by Louis CK; 2013-10-06 at 04:07 PM.

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