Dave Ramsey on the ACA

[araine]

http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/637...-obamacare-for

He talks about Math. Simple Math. This is not a Republican or democrat thing.

I think what I've come to the conclusion is there are a lot of people that want two class of people. Poor and the people who take care of the poor. Middle Class annexed.

Well with this total lack of what is partisan and what isn't it is no wonder we see this POS that totally lacks facts pop up. And if we have issues and problems with the ACA it is due to it trying to work with the for profit system. We get serious about fixing those issues we will move on to true public healthcare and SOLVE that problem and make it CHEAPER. you know CHEAPER as in cutting costs and getting more bang for your buck.


But like they say repeat lies over and over and over and the low info voters fall for it everytime, hence why Fox viewer are found to know LESS about current events than folks that watch no news at all. Thats what LYING does.

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Yes well I think what this really points out is that health care patents are way out of hand. You can point out the "evil" of profit all you want, but imagine if there was competition to Prozac. Do you really think if people have the option to buy an equal medicine, they'd buy one marked up 2100% vs one say, marked up only 500%? If I ran a medicine producing business, I'd gladly produce my medicine for a 500% markup. Hell, I'd take 5 cents a pill profit and not bat an eyelash. But I can't make that business. And even if the patents go away, the need to have a doctor prescribe the medicine to you re-enforces the issue. If there's 100 competing pills that all do the same thing, but the law requires that I get a prescription and my Dr prescribes the ridiculously overpriced Prozac, I'm left with no other option.

Point is, all of you who point out the evils of capitalism when it comes to medicine seem to be neglecting just how regulated the health care market is. If we had true, market competition, weaker patents (or none at all), and the ability to truly shop around for a good deal instead of relying on Big Brother alone, 2100% markups wouldn't be close to sustainable.

So yes, our system is terrible. But that's not an indictment on capitalism or free market medicine. It's an indictment on monopolistic patents and the regulations that keep competition out which prevent consumers from being free to choose and getting good deals.

If we saw a truly free system we could compare it to the socialized systems and then a real discussion could be had about which works better.




Ah yes, but that brings up the flip side issue: In an economy where young people are by and large, underpaid, underemployed, and buried in loan debt, you're forcing them to turn around and pay for a service that they can't afford and don't want or need. This is going to accelerate their economic woes which among other things is going to increase the rate of student loan defaults. In turn, the taxpayers are going to foot the bill for that and that's optimistically assuming that high levels of loan defaults don't cause bigger issues like the housing loan defaults caused in 07/08. So really, if the mandate keeps health care costs from inflating but has unintended consequences like causing economic hardship on young people that in turn causes other costs, has it really on net saved money for the economy?

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So fix that with increased min wage to 15 dollars, make college tuition free. Really pointing towards right wing failures as an excuse for not doing the right thing is just the typical excuses we see from the far right everytime. Fix those issues really we can do that just increase the min wage etc etc and voila your problem about Obamacare for the young is solved instantly really that simple bro.

[fengosa]

I take it you didn't like the way yesterday's thread went so you started a new one? There really isn't much math to be done here. Single payer systems are both more inclusive and more cost effective than private health care. The only reason to oppose serious health care reform is an antiquated notion that protecting the interests of the rich is better than true fiscal conservatism.

[BLCalliente]

Hehe, the thought struck me as well

Sadly I received something that rhymes with "pin traction" for this, even though I thought it was relevant. The guy said "Dave Ramsey is a smart man" implying that we should listen to him. I was just trying to....oh you know....

[Pitkanen]

Yes well I think what this really points out is that health care patents are way out of hand. You can point out the "evil" of profit all you want, but imagine if there was competition to Prozac. Do you really think if people have the option to buy an equal medicine, they'd buy one marked up 2100% vs one say, marked up only 500%? If I ran a medicine producing business, I'd gladly produce my medicine for a 500% markup. Hell, I'd take 5 cents a pill profit and not bat an eyelash. But I can't make that business. And even if the patents go away, the need to have a doctor prescribe the medicine to you re-enforces the issue. If there's 100 competing pills that all do the same thing, but the law requires that I get a prescription and my Dr prescribes the ridiculously overpriced Prozac, I'm left with no other option.

Prozac went off patent in 2001. It's generic name is Fluoxetine.

[Invection]

You say this is not a "Republican or Democrat thing"

And then the very next sentence you say "a lot of people that want two class of people. Poor and the people who take care of the poor. Middle Class annexed."

...tell me how that is not a Republican or Democrat thing?

EDIT: You want to know something? Lets say his math is correct, and (I presume) he's saying Obamacare is the Devil (He does tout religious investment apparently). The thing is... how is this worth throwing the entire government into shutdown and risking defaulting the entire country over?
You see... that's the very thing. The Tea Party message is this - the AHA is bad for the future. so we're going to destroy our current present so we don't destroy our future! You many not believe that - but that IS what the Tea Party is demonstrating and what people are seeing.

Second thing: What's his alternative? Free market? Corporate profit interests being the underlying motivation to cure people!? What profit is there in curing people? When they're cured, they're no longer buying.

I've tried explaining this to other Tea Party people... it's not just the ideals that people have a problem with, it's the methods - the fact that they're dispassionately throwing the entire country under the bus. It's literally like somebody setting another person on fire in order to "save their soul from damnation!"

On the flip side to your obviously bias and ignorant view of the whole situation, we can't afford this. We cannot. This program is already subsidized to all hell from the get go, and it gives AMA(RUC) more cause to jack the rates out of everything. You say oh hi dur 20$ co-pay for preventative care. Meanwhile, your doctors office just billed the government 500$. Take a look at subsidized college education, and the increase in rates every single year. Their are so many models of artificially raised costs due to government intervention, you can be assured that this model will be running the same tune. We are already trillions in debt, adding a massive giant like this is going to accelerate it's growth tremendously. We can't print ourselves out of debt. The very scary reality without even adding government healthcare is loosing the dollar as the reserve currency. That happens, can you afford 60-75$ a gallon of gas? Can you afford 40-50$ loafs of bread, 50-60$ gallons of milk?

[Pitkanen]

On the flip side to your obviously bias and ignorant view of the whole situation, we can't afford this. We cannot. This program is already subsidized to all hell from the get go, and it gives AMA(RUC) more cause to jack the rates out of everything...

We already pay the healthcare costs the uninsured rack up in the ER via higher rates on everyone who does pay the hospital.
Mittens had a pretty good summary of why we need everyone insured back in 2005:
''No more 'free riding,' if you will, where an individual says: 'I'm not going to pay, even though I can afford it. I'm not going to get insurance, even though I can afford it. I'm instead going to just show up and make the taxpayers pay for me,' "

[Rajadog20]

If you want math here's some math for you (and I do not mean this to be hostile

The manufacturing cost of ingredients for a 20mg tablet of Prozac costs $.11, the consumer cost for a bottle of 100 20mg tablets of Prozac is $247.47 which constitutes a mark up of 224,973%.

How's that for math?

Or the cost of Gleevec, a medication I take btw. The monthly cost for what I take, which is a one month supply of 400mg tablets, is $6,000. The manufacturer has long ago made back their research investment and has been raking in profit after their first billion dollars.

Oh there is math alright and it sure doesn't add up at all.

Oh and just so people know where I got my Prozac numbers: http://www.anxiety-and-depression-so...ldrugcosts.php

Gleevec information is on wikipedia. Probably other places too.

You completely forgot that it took decades, and millions of dollars to develop many of those medicines. It has NOTHING to do with the price of the ingredients.

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So fix that with increased min wage to 15 dollars, make college tuition free. Really pointing towards right wing failures as an excuse for not doing the right thing is just the typical excuses we see from the far right everytime. Fix those issues really we can do that just increase the min wage etc etc and voila your problem about Obamacare for the young is solved instantly really that simple bro.

Are you kidding? Increased minimum wage to 15$? No teenager will ever be able to get a job at 15$ an hour.... They already have it hard enough...

[Masark]

You completely forgot that it took decades, and millions of dollars to develop many of those medicines. It has NOTHING to do with the price of the ingredients.

Perhaps you missed the "long ago made back their research costs" bit.

[Reeve]

If you want math here's some math for you (and I do not mean this to be hostile

The manufacturing cost of ingredients for a 20mg tablet of Prozac costs $.11, the consumer cost for a bottle of 100 20mg tablets of Prozac is $247.47 which constitutes a mark up of 224,973%.

How's that for math?

Or the cost of Gleevec, a medication I take btw. The monthly cost for what I take, which is a one month supply of 400mg tablets, is $6,000. The manufacturer has long ago made back their research investment and has been raking in profit after their first billion dollars.

Oh there is math alright and it sure doesn't add up at all.

Oh and just so people know where I got my Prozac numbers: http://www.anxiety-and-depression-so...ldrugcosts.php

Gleevec information is on wikipedia. Probably other places too.

Oh come on now. You know damn well that they have to recoup their costs on the development of the drug AND all the drugs that never made it to market. It's extremely expensive to develop such things. Pulling out a number like $0.11 per pill is just extremely disingenuous at best, and deceptive at worst. Yes, they make back their development money eventually, plus some, but for example, Pfizer's average profit margin is 22%. That's a good margin, but not outside of reasonability for a strong company.

[Rajadog20]

Perhaps you missed the "long ago made back their research costs" bit.

Except on a lot, they haven't.

[Deathcries]

I take it you didn't like the way yesterday's thread went so you started a new one? There really isn't much math to be done here. Single payer systems are both more inclusive and more cost effective than private health care. The only reason to oppose serious health care reform is an antiquated notion that protecting the interests of the rich is better than true fiscal conservatism.

No. It actually went perfect. What I'm showing is people, that I work with the mentality of some people. Basically there is certain people who hate competition, and feels there should be a destruction of the middle class, by the middle class supporting the poor. Which once again that's what this video is to prove. Dave Ramsey is a successful financial adviser who has helped MILLIONS of Americans with financial and debt free success. Something people who depend on others are not good at. I have to bring this threads out to hopefully maybe inform some of the uninformed. The dependents, and have me nots, to maybe become, well maybe; responsible and indepenedent, free of slavery to the .gov.

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On the flip side to your obviously bias and ignorant view of the whole situation, we can't afford this. We cannot. This program is already subsidized to all hell from the get go, and it gives AMA(RUC) more cause to jack the rates out of everything. You say oh hi dur 20$ co-pay for preventative care. Meanwhile, your doctors office just billed the government 500$. Take a look at subsidized college education, and the increase in rates every single year. Their are so many models of artificially raised costs due to government intervention, you can be assured that this model will be running the same tune. We are already trillions in debt, adding a massive giant like this is going to accelerate it's growth tremendously. We can't print ourselves out of debt. The very scary reality without even adding government healthcare is loosing the dollar as the reserve currency. That happens, can you afford 60-75$ a gallon of gas? Can you afford 40-50$ loafs of bread, 50-60$ gallons of milk?

When you want to bring the system down and put everybody on the same level, you don't care about logic, or responsibility. Only chaos, and irresponsibility matters.

[Jeleh]

You completely forgot that it took decades, and millions of dollars to develop many of those medicines. It has NOTHING to do with the price of the ingredients.

Millions? That's slightly underselling it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewh...ting-new-drugs

Now don't misunderstand me here, I agree the pharmaceutical industry needs competition and that patents often offer too much protection for too extended periods of time. But given the vast costs involved people need to realize the reasons these companies fight so hard to protect their products.

[Rajadog20]

When you want to bring the system down and put everybody on the same level, you don't care about logic, or responsibility. Only chaos, and irresponsibility matters.

EDIT: I may have misread what you said. I assumed you were talking about the Republicans wanting to "bring the system down" as most people on these forums seem to want to believe. I am confused after re reading it who you are referring to :P.

"Bring the system down"? Last I checked, 83% of the government is still operating.

http://www.naturalnews.com/042437_go..._finances.html

What "Chaos, and irresponsibility" are you referring to? The only ones being irresponsible here are the Senate democrats who refuse to negotiate at all with Obama's prized ACA law, and risking default, but even that would barely be a big deal. Very few people would notice any effect if we do default.

[fengosa]

No. It actually went perfect. What I'm showing is people, that I work with the mentality of some people. Basically there is certain people who hate competition, and feels there should be a destruction of the middle class, by the middle class supporting the poor. Which once again that's what this video is to prove. Dave Ramsey is a successful financial adviser who has helped MILLIONS of Americans with financial and debt free success. Something people who depend on others are not good at. I have to bring this threads out to hopefully maybe inform some of the uninformed. The dependents, and have me nots, to maybe become, well maybe; responsible and indepenedent, free of slavery to the .gov.

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When you want to bring the system down and put everybody on the same level, you don't care about logic, or responsibility. Only chaos, and irresponsibility matters.

America's taxation and social spending are fairly low compared to many other developed countries. It has nothing to do with logic and responsibility. If you were truly being responsible you'd be for increased taxation because that inflated military budget isn't going to pay itself.

[Rajadog20]

Millions? That's slightly underselling it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewh...ting-new-drugs

Now don't misunderstand me here, I agree the pharmaceutical industry needs competition and that patents often offer too much protection for too extended periods of time. But given the vast costs involved people need to realize the reasons these companies fight so hard to protect their products.

Exactly. And also, high drug prices (that are covered by the insurance companies) actually might be good. It encourages companies to get into pharmaceutical research and find cures faster. If you were to regulate drug prices, the profits would go down, there would be less self interest, and less companies trying less to find cures for conditions and diseases.

[Deathcries]

America's taxation and social spending are fairly low compared to many other developed countries. It has nothing to do with logic and responsibility. If you were truly being responsible you'd be for increased taxation because that inflated military budget isn't going to pay itself.

Look, I want to open people's minds. Stop being tunneled vision. Yes I'm a conservative. I can't stand Bush though, I can break away from relying on a politician to better my life, and I do not trust ANYONE with power, they're in it for themselves. I do believe it's our jobs to help out other Americans. I believe we are a noble nation. Don't think for a second I want someone to not have medical care. I truly do, but I want to do it the right way.

I believe that everybody can contribute some way or another. I've seen truly disabled people still contribute, become something, independent, and they pay their dues, I'm one of those as I was disabled in the Afghanistan war. However I'm not a war person either. I always said the war in Iraq was a mistake. I joined the military because it was my duty to protect the ones I love and enjoy the freedoms that I enjoy without having to worry about some people ramming a plane threw a building killing thousands of innocent civilians, though I still work and I still have to have insurance on my family. So I'm not really exempt.

You cannot lay this on the back of the middle class. It's killing us. We're the start of the American dream. I want people to become independent, rely off of no one and become successful. I hate suffering unless it's truly for the greater good. What I mean is if that person is able, but is lazy, does not want to do work or anything, than if he starves well that's his choosing. Not anyone elses. However no one in America goes hungry. The poorest of people still have a place to live, food, a car, and a cellphone. This is not a cruel nation. We are a great nation. I want people to stop pissing on this country, and the meaning of it.

[Rajadog20]

Look, I want to open people's minds. Stop being tunneled vision. Yes I'm a conservative. I can't stand Bush though, I can break away from relying on a politician to better my life, and I do not trust ANYONE with power, they're in it for themselves. I do believe it's our jobs to help out other Americans. I believe we are a noble nation. Don't think for a second I want someone to not have medical care. I truly do, but I want to do it the right way.

I believe that everybody can contribute some way or another. I've seen truly disabled people still contribute, become something, independent, and they pay their dues, I'm one of those as I was disabled in the Afghanistan war. However I'm not a war person either. I always said the war in Iraq was a mistake. I joined the military because it was my duty to protect the ones I love and enjoy the freedoms that I enjoy without having to worry about some people ramming a plane threw a building killing thousands of innocent civilians, though I still work and I still have to have insurance on my family. So I'm not really exempt.

You cannot lay this on the back of the middle class. It's killing us. We're the start of the American dream. I want people to become independent, rely off of no one and become successful. I hate suffering unless it's truly for the greater good. What I mean is if that person is able, but is lazy, does not want to do work or anything, than if he starves well that's his choosing. Not anyone elses. However no one in America goes hungry. The poorest of people still have a place to live, food, a car, and a cellphone. This is not a cruel nation. We are a great nation. I want people to stop pissing on this country, and the meaning of it.

Where is the like button?

[Puremallace]

Right wing bullshit. I posted on that comments section because that guy is clueless 2 minutes into that rant. That old guy talking without Obamacare would get denied.

He then has the balls to demonize social programs and I guaran damn T you he paid like 20$ per paycheck into Medicare while working back in the 70's while I have to pay $80+ a paycheck to pay for his fucking healthcare.

How about this? He gets as much healthcare as he paid in? It would last about 6 months and then every dime he put in would be blown through. He would learn real fast how broken this system is.

[Rajadog20]

Right wing bullshit. I posted on that comments section because that guy is clueless 2 minutes into that rant. That old guy talking without Obamacare would get denied.

He then has the balls to demonize social programs and I guaran damn T you he paid like 20$ per paycheck into Medicare while working back in the 70's while I have to pay $80+ a paycheck to pay for his fucking healthcare.

How about this? He gets as much healthcare as he paid in? It would last about 6 months and then every dime he put in would be blown through. He would learn real fast how broken this system is.

Uhhh.. I'm pretty sure he pays for his own insurance...Im confused what he said that you don't agree with? What would he get denied without Obamacare?

[fengosa]

Look, I want to open people's minds. Stop being tunneled vision. Yes I'm a conservative. I can't stand Bush though, I can break away from relying on a politician to better my life, and I do not trust ANYONE with power, they're in it for themselves. I do believe it's our jobs to help out other Americans. I believe we are a noble nation. Don't think for a second I want someone to not have medical care. I truly do, but I want to do it the right way.

I believe that everybody can contribute some way or another. I've seen truly disabled people still contribute, become something, independent, and they pay their dues, I'm one of those as I was disabled in the Afghanistan war. However I'm not a war person either. I always said the war in Iraq was a mistake. I joined the military because it was my duty to protect the ones I love and enjoy the freedoms that I enjoy without having to worry about some people ramming a plane threw a building killing thousands of innocent civilians, though I still work and I still have to have insurance on my family. So I'm not really exempt.

You cannot lay this on the back of the middle class. It's killing us. We're the start of the American dream. I want people to become independent, rely off of no one and become successful. I hate suffering unless it's truly for the greater good. What I mean is if that person is able, but is lazy, does not want to do work or anything, than if he starves well that's his choosing. Not anyone elses. However no one in America goes hungry. The poorest of people still have a place to live, food, a car, and a cellphone. This is not a cruel nation. We are a great nation. I want people to stop pissing on this country, and the meaning of it.

You're either going to have to pay for it now or pay for it later in when you're older and health care costs are more significant. Even efficient single payer systems run annual costs of $4-5k per person so the insurance quotes you're getting are in line, if anything you're benefitting from the current system. This is what healthcare costs. It's not some rigid scheme to fleece the middle class.