What is up with GC response to LFR?

[Deleted]

Obviously, this guy is way out of tune from what PG is. PG by no means ensures you know what you are doing. It also by no means ensures that you can do LFR. PG is easy for some classes, hard for others, and just not possible for a few. MW monks for healing I still cant pass, while Hpal was easy. Point is, PG is not balanced nearly well enough for him to make such a claim and it be effective. Now, this is worrysome because he is considering having the PG medals be your requirement to enter LFR.

He also doesnt understand that tanks have been quitting LFR since before 5.4. SoO just highlighted all of the problems lfr had, making it less appealing to tanks.

I don't really run LFR, but it seems like GC really doesn't know why tanks dont run lfr or why PG medals being able to lower the ilevel required for entry is a bad thing.

Personally people that cannot pass silver PG on their characters are the reason I don't run LFR.

Don't even argue with gear. If you cannot do silver PG (again this isn't gold or endless) you are bad and should try to improve by reading a guide. Afterwards watch some shot boss guides before going into the instance too.

Only then will LFR not suck for everyone involved and I might give it a try again.

[Bullettime]

Personally people that cannot pass silver PG on their characters are the reason I don't run LFR.

Don't even argue with gear. If you cannot do silver PG (again this isn't gold or endless) you are bad and should try to improve by reading a guide. Afterwards watch some videos before going into the instance too.

Only then will LFR not suck for everyone involved and I might give it a try again.

Sad thing is that somewhere along the line, LFR went from being an easy mode raid to teach the basics of the raid mechanics to it being a "I should be able to queue for this with any gear and it teach me how to play the game!"

That's why LFR is such a pile of crap right now. Very few raiders still queuing for it to carry runs while players are hitting 90, equipping Timeless Isle gear, then jumping into Siege within an hour of hitting 90 and not knowing what to do. Decent players, if doing that, would have researched their classes ahead of time to know the basics and use the raid for fine tuning. But unfortunately, most players aren't decent and it results in people insta queuing after 90 and putting up 30k DPS and thinking it's acceptable because "it's just LFR and I'm learning." Nevermind that the content is still tuned for about 70k per person which is not unreasonable at all given the 496 ilvl gating.

[Deleted]

He is also saying that with the 1/n change to vengeance it has made low vengeance tanking (some areas of LFR) even more annoying/hard than it has to be and that affects bad tanks, a lot, but NOT AS MUCH AS 5 MANS, which is how 5 mans were brought up.
Now, does that mean he struggles as a tank in LFR? No, it does not, though he MIGHT if he's running with his guild group, I don't know.

This what you say here is so important. While the 1/n change does not affect your tanking a lot in LFR, other than maybe some of the trash. I guess you also get lower on the damage meters and some tanks like being competetive on the DPS.

The point is that the 1/n change is causing a lot of issue for the content that leads up to LFR. Vengeance in scenarios was already kinda non-existant except for a few scenarios. But the 1/n change has caused leveling as a tank to be a lot more annoying, questing as a tank has gone from being a bad experience to a terrible experience. Even pulling 10 mobs at the time while questing used to be slow before, you would get say 50-70k vengeance depending on what mobs it was, but even so you would kill those mobs far slower than any dps would. It was slow, but not completely frustrating. Now you get 5k vengeance and killing any world mobs takes an eternity as a tank compared to any dps. This applies to daily questing as well, say isle of thunder dailies, I used to try to pull as many mobs as possible, which meant 5-15 mobs depeding on which quest I was doing to make it go faster. I cant imagine myself doing anymore as a tank. Doing dailies as a dps would just be 10x faster. I am so glad I farmed my 9999 dinosaur bones in 5.3, I went back and helped a friend get it now in 5.4, and my damage was just horrendous as compared to before. If it was not for my friend being dps carrying the damage on the isle, it would have been terrible.

Add on this that doing a dungeon, while not hard, you feel utterly useless as a tank, just like a meatshield that do not do anything useful. Due to it being just, that easy. Survival is not an issue and your dps is irrelevant. The same can be applied to LFR to a smaller degree. Even in LFR you feel like a meatshield on some bosses, with very little to do and your damage output being almost irrelevant to the raid.

All of these quality of life changes that was affected for a tank in the early game process as leveling, daily questing, doing stuff in the world, dungeons etc causes less player to play tank overall, which causes less tanks in LFR. So while the direct effect in LFR is not huge, the indirect effect of less players playing tank is.
Playing a tank is simply not rewarding or that enjoyable. When you get told "go dps" in a dungeon, that is pretty obvious. DPS need to make up their mind. Either they stop complaining on the long queue times as DPS because there are no tanks, or they need to stop complaining about tanks getting to do meaningful damage which causes more people to play tanks. You cant have it both ways at the same time.

I honestly cant see myself playing tank in the next expansion. I just imagine the dread of leveling up, there will probably be something you need to grind in terms of mob at max level and probably some daily quests you need to do. I just cant picture myself wasting the time doing that as a tank when I can do it 10x faster on my hunter.

[cFortyfive]

Try to actually read what he is writing and think about it IN CONTEXT, fuck.

Well to get back to the context even after following this little bs argument here going back and forth I fail to see how the threat changes are supposedly one of the biggest reasons that there are no tanks in lfr. As if you would be constantly matched with 574 owls or whatever in lfr. Or in lfd.

Only then will LFR not suck for everyone involved and I might give it a try again.

Strongly doubt it would have that much of an impact compared to Blizzard actually creating incentive to not afk/suck.

[Deleted]

Well to get back to the context even after following this little bs argument here going back and forth I fail to see how the threat changes are supposedly one of the biggest reasons that there are no tanks in lfr. As if you would be constantly matched with 574 owls or whatever in lfr. Or in lfd.

You need to look at the bigger picture. The impact in LFR is not huge. The impact on leveling, doing every day stuff as dailies/killing some mobs is tremendous.
Being irrelevant in both dungeons and scenarios is not fun either. Causing more tanks not wanting to play tanks before they even get to LFR, naturally causes less tanks inside LFR.

[cFortyfive]

You need to look at the bigger picture. The impact in LFR is not huge. The impact on leveling, doing every day stuff as dailies/killing some mobs is tremendous.
Being irrelevant in both dungeons and scenarios is not fun either. Causing more tanks not wanting to play tanks before they even get to LFR, naturally causes less tanks inside LFR.

But that's the thing it isn't an issue in any of these except maybe for the specific scenario you described where you are running content as a way over geared tank and with way overgeared damage dealers. In easily 9/10 lfd groups I still can handle aggro without any problems. Daily content - I might recognize a little less dps but not that I had any vengeance prior to the changes. Same essentially goes for leveling.

[Deleted]

Now, is this a huge issue? Not really

Good, then stop complaining about it, its getting old.

the content is designed for 120 lower ilvl and at that point death is a complete non issue for anyone. The bigger factor here is Blizzards failure with 5 man content this expansion (which they have admitted to but don't quite know how to solve yet).

No, Blizzard did not admit that. Blizzard admitted they should've made more 5 man dungeons in 5.4. The 5.0 dungeons have served their purpose, and had 3 difficulties. CMs are a huge success beyond their expectations. Saying the 5 man content failed in MoP because of your tanking issue is way over the top.

However, none of that changes what he is saying.

Yes, it does. It puts what he says into perspective.

I tank 5 mans all the time just out of boredom and 95% of the time when I am doing so I have zero issues with threat (559 ilvl) even when running into somewhat geared players in the LFG system. This is due to them not being very skilled and competent with their class OR they are being extremely lazy in the 5 man (because it's a fucking 5 man lol). However when I get in there with guildies who are on my raid team who wanna blow through the instance as fast as possible there's no chance in the world I am holding AoE threat on them. Bursting a million AoE DPS while I'm sitting there struggling my ass of to hit even 100k (at a good time) those mobs are not staying on me. That is his major point. He's not talking single target raid bosses (or even instance bosses), he is not talking about trash in raids he is talking about low vengeance AoE threat when DPS are pushing insane numbers (skilled t16 heroic raider numbers). If you guys refuse to get that and wanna keep saying "lolubad" cool, but you're a fucking idiot.

The chance a 560 ilvl tank queues out of boredom for some silly reason and meets skilled 560 ilvl raiders who out of boredom (and stupidity / inefficiency since time to cap VP is better spend on HC scenario) is insignificant.

And to those saying "I don't tank but my guildies at 500 ilvl never even have to work to hold threat on our DPS in a 5 man", that means the DPS in your guild are fucking terrible or not trying (thus there's no major threat issues).

People with 500 ilvl should be playing HC scenario, 5.0 raid HC, ToT, and SoO LFR. Get it in your head. They have no place in 5.0 dungeons!

Some of you even responded to his "ToT ranks in the 98th percentile" remarks by saying "I'm not even in the 50th percentile and I don't have trouble". Doesn't that make you think, even for just a second, that a tank who can and does play at a vastly more efficient level (in terms of damage output) might be dealing with a different situation, and before you say "lolubad" you should maybe try and consider that different situation. You already admitted you don't play anywhere near the level he does, so why should anyone listen to your lulz it's ez comments? Try to actually read what he is writing and think about it IN CONTEXT, fuck.

I get his point very much. I accept the problem, its just, I think the problem is irrelevant while you find it incredibly important. I rather see Blizzard work in 6.0 than fix this...

- - - Updated - - -

This what you say here is so important. While the 1/n change does not affect your tanking a lot in LFR, other than maybe some of the trash. I guess you also get lower on the damage meters and some tanks like being competetive on the DPS.

Some healers also like to be competitive on the HPS. Except healing is about keeping people alive, not HPS. If you want to care about your damage, roll damage dealer. If you want to quest you can do that as healer or tank but it will take longer. It isn't very efficient. It was like that before vengeance, so tanks have been through worse. My experience with tanks going for meters isn't positive since all I can remember from it is, yes some rank 1 and 2 indeed, but also wipes because the tank is using sit macros which on progression means we gotta restart and on farm is plain annoying. I also know this "like being competitive on the DPS" was pretty ridiculous with tanks topping the meters which, again, isn't what tanking is about. Tanking is about control: controlling your personal survival (and that of the raid with certain CDs), positioning (where is it tanked, faced to where), and aggro (who tanks what and when).

The point is that the 1/n change is causing a lot of issue for the content that leads up to LFR.

Only old content which is designed for different ilvl. If you're questing, you can spec damage dealer. If you're playing old content with people having 120 more ilvl than designed you run into a scaling issue as you outlined, but the amount of people who are interested in this old content are statistically irrelevant.

Playing a tank is simply not rewarding or that enjoyable. When you get told "go dps" in a dungeon, that is pretty obvious. DPS need to make up their mind. Either they stop complaining on the long queue times as DPS because there are no tanks, or they need to stop complaining about tanks getting to do meaningful damage which causes more people to play tanks. You cant have it both ways at the same time.

If you have a 560 tank, a 560 healer, and 3x 560 damage then the most sensible thing to do is letting the healer go to his hybrid off spec and letting the tank go damage. It will quicken the run. If you're a protection paladin you can go retribution with RF on and absolutely rofl the entire instance.

I honestly cant see myself playing tank in the next expansion. I just imagine the dread of leveling up, there will probably be something you need to grind in terms of mob at max level and probably some daily quests you need to do. I just cant picture myself wasting the time doing that as a tank when I can do it 10x faster on my hunter.

You're overdramatizing it. Tanking has gone a little bit more back to the time before vengeance. If you played CMs (and I did, tanked full gold on 2 characters & did them on every class) you'd know tanks do ridiculous damage with the exception being warrior. Now, tanking will go back more to its core and I think its a good thing.

I'd like to see healing, for example, also getting back more to its core which was direct healing people and sometimes popping a CD instead of just chaining all these smart heals and lol all are healed.

[Deleted]

But that's the thing it isn't an issue in any of these except maybe for the specific scenario you described where you are running content as a way over geared tank and with way overgeared damage dealers. In easily 9/10 lfd groups I still can handle aggro without any problems. Daily content - I might recognize a little less dps but not that I had any vengeance prior to the changes. Same essentially goes for leveling.

The threat issue was just something that got blown out of proportion by people in this thread that got absolutely 0 clue what they are talking about, it should not have needed as much discussion as it got.

The change to daily questing and the damage output of tanks in low vengeance situations is a very real issue though. The damage you could do as a tank, especially at lower gear levels, got reduced by about 40-75% depending on what situation you are talking about. That is an extremely substantial difference. Obviously the lower gear you have and the more mobs you pull the more you are affected. These are not minor changes that affect only a few %. The threat issues is only really apparent to people playing at the top 1-5% or so that is negliable, but the changes to single player content is noticeable for every player. As said before, tanking was already in a bad state in terms of solo content such as questig and such, not it got even worse. People should not be surprised when there is less tanks playing, since to me it is fairly obvious why. A lot of people are saying that there are significantly less tanks in 5.4 than 5.3. The only two major differences to tanks has been the 1/n vengeance change and flex raiding being introduced. I still see people having a shortage of tank in flex, and there is a bigger shortage of tanks in 5 man content, so that to me rules out flex. Flex could be a reason why there are less tanks in LFR, but I dont see why flex would draw a larger % of tanks than any other spec. To me 1/n makes a lot more sense to explaining the drop in tanks than Flex.

Tanks doing extremely low damage does not help either. While it does not matter to the results of the group, lets face it, everyone likes to do numbers. If you are doing 60k dps in a dungeon while the rest of the group is doing 400k, that is not really fun or entertaining and you feel completely useless. When people got a slice of the cookie and then get it ripped away from them, they are gonna get bored.

I also really dont see the problem DPSers have with tanks doing competitive DPS as all (raid) encounters are balanced around it. Personally I would like to see tanks vengeance lowered further and tanks baseline damage increased. That would solve any issues with low vengeance situations and also not causing insane numbers at higher vengeance situations that pisses DPSers off.

Overall, the fun factor in tanks took a huge hit on all levels of playing and gearing up a tank became more time consuming with a bigger feeling of being useless.
Is it surprising there are less tanks playing?

[Aceshigh]

Good, then stop complaining about it, its getting old.

Show me where I complained about it to the point it got old....I'll wait.

Also, grats on taking 8 words out of a huge post and taking them out of context....again. It just proves what I was saying about the morons (you) in here.

INFRACTED: Don't insult other posters. -Nobleshield

[Deleted]

Show me where I complained about it to the point it got old....I'll wait.

Also, grats on taking 8 words out of a huge post and taking them out of context....again. It just proves what I was saying about the morons (you) in here.

Your level of debating is falling back to ad hominem attacks instead of using arguments which are comprised of logic.

- - - Updated - - -

I also really dont see the problem DPSers have with tanks doing competitive DPS as all (raid) encounters are balanced around it. Personally I would like to see tanks vengeance lowered further and tanks baseline damage increased. That would solve any issues with low vengeance situations and also not causing insane numbers at higher vengeance situations that pisses DPSers off.

Would have implications on PvP. Perhaps changes like these are in the making for the next expansion. Again, I rather see Blizzard focus on fixing next expansion than some silly regression. Our tanks are having fun in SoO, btw.

[Osmeric]

No he's not. Read again. He's said they're thinking of using PG medals to lower the ilevel you need to enter LFR.

Jesus people...

Or, they might be thinking of RAISING the ilvl requirement to get into LFR, unless you have PG medals.

[Mindark]

Would have implications on PvP.

Because we're already overrepresented in PVP as it is...this would just tip the scales!

Because of these things firefly mentioned, the only place for tanks is raiding. There is no place in scenarios, dungeons, questing, farming, pvp. Outside of raids, there is no place for a tank. If there are no places for tanks to exist in WoW outside of raiding, there will be less tanks.

Entry level content is the only place where tanks might be equal, where dps has a risk of pulling too much and dying. But content is designed around dps doing it, not tanks. So dps has godly survivability in the world, tanks have even more so, but it doesn't matter. DPS damage scales exponentially with gear, tanks scale insignificantly.

Being a tank outside of raiding is not fun. It hasn't been for most of MoP. I'm very much considering not being a tank in 6.0 for these reasons as well and just rolling DPS, because that's the simplest role to play in all aspects of the game.

[Deja Thoris]

Or, they might be thinking of RAISING the ilvl requirement to get into LFR, unless you have PG medals.

Reading is so hard. The damn quote from GC is there, that's not what he said.

[Osmeric]

Reading is so hard. The damn quote from GC is there, that's not what he said.

GC's quote doesn't contradict the possibility I offered. But I guess reading is hard, yes?

[Deja Thoris]

GC's quote doesn't contradict the possibility I offered. But I guess reading is hard, yes?

It's a one line tweet talking about one thing they considered. Of course it doesn't contradict every retarded possibility that exists.

I've changed my mind, its comprehension and context that's the challenge for you.

[Deleted]

The change to daily questing and the damage output of tanks in low vengeance situations is a very real issue though. The damage you could do as a tank, especially at lower gear levels, got reduced by about 40-75% depending on what situation you are talking about. That is an extremely substantial difference.

And it was already pretty bad in MoP at launch. I remember on the farm, how long it used to take as a tank to kill pathetic vermin in tank spec. I've typically kept tank spec ever since Burning Crusade, but on getting to 90, I realised I was just shooting myself in the foot not being mostly in ret for dailies and just going round the world (e.g. killing elites seemed much easier as ret than prot - the shorter killing time meant less risk of failing some mechanic). Blizzard improved tanking in many ways with active mitigation etc., but I don't know why they had to nerf zero-vengeance tank damage so much. I remember one of the most liberating experiences was the pre-Wotlk patch, when as a tank on the Isle of Quel'danas I went from being a sad liability (who really wanted to partner with dps) to being wholly viable soloing the dailies. MoP came close to taking us back to the BC era when tank dps was an oxymoron. And even then at least we had an AOE niche, which 5.4 has closed.

[Osmeric]

It's a one line tweet talking about one thing they considered. Of course it doesn't contradict every retarded possibility that exists.

I've changed my mind, its comprehension and context that's the challenge for you.

My goodness. Do you imagine your bile is any substitute for having an argument showing some sign of intelligence?

I was responding to this statement from Clevin:

He's said they're thinking of using PG medals to lower the ilevel you need to enter LFR.

And I was pointing out that, no, that's not necessarily what he's saying. The possibility also exists that they would RAISE the ilvl to get into LFR, unless you use PG.

What exactly is Clevin's possiblity ok to talk about, but this alternative possibility isn't?

[Deja Thoris]

My goodness. Do you imagine your bile is any substitute for having an argument showing some sign of intelligence?

I was responding to this statement from Clevin:



And I was pointing out that, no, that's not necessarily what he's saying. The possibility also exists that they would RAISE the ilvl to get into LFR, unless you use PG.

What exactly is Clevin's possiblity ok to talk about, but this alternative possibility isn't?

No, its exactly what hes saying. Just because you choose to take the opportunity to speculate alternate realities doesn't mean they exist. Once again, I'll point out that he can't do a disclaimer discounting all possible outcomes in a one line post. The possibility also exists that they may allow level ones into LFR, he didn't specifically discount that did he? therefore it must be a possibility according to your err *logic*

[Aceshigh]

Your level of debating is falling back to ad hominem attacks instead of using arguments which are comprised of logic.

haha ok. Ignore a post full of information, cherrypick shit to take out of context and when called an idiot for doing so you tell the other person to comprise an argument out of logic. Done here.

[Osmeric]

No, its exactly what hes saying. Just because you choose to take the opportunity to speculate alternate realities doesn't mean they exist.

Why exactly is the possibility "retarded"? I mean, your sterling logical exposition there didn't quite explain that part.

Frankly, raising the ilvl requirement for your typical LFR player would be an excellent idea, unless they could prove that they weren't really bad. So why do you think this isn't what the devs are actually planning? Please give a logical argument, not just bleat "retarded! retarded!" and hurl random invective.