Rank Overall Tank Performance in SoO Heroic

[Veiled Shadow]

Monks don't have active mitigation at all. You're only active ability is guard, and you can use that what, once every 30 seconds? I guess PB and the EB is the only other things that can count. At high gear levels though EB is something that can have near 100% uptime though.

Blackout kick for Monks is something you pretty much use all of the time. Shuffle doesn't have a damage cap and endlessly extends its duration as long as you blackout kick every 6 seconds. In theory it's AM, but in practice it really isn't. DK AM is similar to shuffle, but there are caps and it's constantly getting eaten, even then it's a bad comparison. DKs only really get the shuffle effect from our AM on pathetically easy content where our blood shield never ends.

Honestly I think tank balance is still really awful. Riposte helped somewhat to alleviate damage differences, but they are still there.

They really need to evaluate or fix raid utility between the tanks as well. Some have essentially zero while others have millions of ways to help the raid. AP scaling for certain abilities is also absolutely fucking absurd when comparing tanks. During high vengeance all I do as a DK is do more damage to the boss. When a Monk gets higher vengeance guards on the raid get bigger, their self healing gets bigger. Meanwhile Paladin raid healing sky rockets and things like lights hammer become an AoE LoH on encounters like Thok for 10 seconds.

What I highlighted in my last point is essentially the biggest problems with tanks. Vengeance is a fixed mechanic that we know is always present when going into a boss. Why are some tanks left behind while others scale to ridiculous levels as they take more damage, both in damage done AND usefulness to the raid.

Why can't they just remove Vengeance and make tank damage comparable to that dealt by a damage spec?

[Tojara]

They don't want to have tanks be overpowered in PvP is the only reasoning. They could just make tank specializations do like 30-40% less damage in BGs/Arenas though.

[Ailylia]

Look, I don't want to go on any further. So I'll keep it simple ...

TOO LATE!

You're talking about reactive abilities. But if you want to define active mitigation as a reactive ability, then fine. But the root breakdown of the word and common sense disagrees.

[Deleted]

TOO LATE!

You're talking about reactive abilities. But if you want to define active mitigation as a reactive ability, then fine. But the root breakdown of the word and common sense disagrees.

BoK is passive mitigation, not active, as any toddler can keep more than 100% shuffle uptime.

[Frozendekay]

what i was reffering to is that no matter what you do, no tank is surviving 21M hits.

Fort Brew + Shuffle + Base Stagger + Mastery = 75%+ Stagger. Lets say they're geared and are at 80%. This already turns the 21mil into 4.2mil. Now the 25% reduction from stance, 3.15mil. Now tack on Pain Supp, Ironbark and the AoE reduction trinket, you get down to 876k. You've got shields from priests/paladins and other sources, Hand of Sacrifices, Chi Cocoons, vigilances, Power Word: Barrier and probably a few more externals going around. Totally doable, although the 5 seconds where AoE reduction is down will be pretty scary.

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In regards to the thread itself, I agree with Warrior = Monk >= Paladin > Druid > DK overall for 25H. I think the gap between druid and paladin is extremely small though - people don't see druids often and tend to underrate them when they're really very good this tier.

[kaiadam]

Fort Brew + Shuffle + Base Stagger + Mastery = 75%+ Stagger.

68.125% actually, but being "geared" could imply a further 25% mastery or more, so fort brew by itself in a full mastery build would be almost enough to cut that 21 mil down to acceptable size. You can also zen med the 5 seconds where the aoe reduction trinket isn't up, assuming you use one.

BoK is passive mitigation, not active, as any toddler can keep more than 100% shuffle uptime.

It's generally the norm for high end brewmasters to keep shuffle up 100% of the time but it's not completely trivial either You try keeping it up full time when you're stunned for 7 seconds out of every 16 from Korven's shield bash *grumble* (not that I don't, but still ... )

[Deleted]

It's generally the norm for high end brewmasters to keep shuffle up 100% of the time but it's not completely trivial either You try keeping it up full time when you're stunned for 7 seconds out of every 16 from Korven's shield bash *grumble* (not that I don't, but still ... )

Well, guess it is kinda cheat with my monk that I am human on it so can cleanse stuns fairly often together with nimblebrew. Still, plenty enough time to build up stagger during the encounter. You get bashed what, 6-8 times? Something like that, you can easily build enough stagger time to cover that.

Or just put the other tank on korven



At the OP: Monk=Warrior>Paladin>Druid>DK. Paladins do have some nice niche uses though. Paladins are extremely good on Thok and Siegecrafter in 10 man for example. But overall they fall short. Druids are imo = paladins on most fights, but paladins niche uses makes them better in my book.

[Frozendekay]

68.125% actually, but being "geared" could imply a further 25% mastery or more, so fort brew by itself in a full mastery build would be almost enough to cut that 21 mil down to acceptable size. You can also zen med the 5 seconds where the aoe reduction trinket isn't up, assuming you use one.

Ah, thanks. Haven't looked at actual monk numbers in a while. Regardless, that's still 73%, use 1 extra external and you're right back to my numbers.

[Tojara]

Druids are really good tanks. Stampeding roar is completely underrated and there are some key times where HoTW rejuv spam or tranquility can be used. Is their utility as good as the other tanks? No, but as a well rounded tank they are up there. I wouldn't say Druids are the best in any category, but they aren't the worse in any category.

Yay for 3 second AMZ (at the cost of purgatory) and bloodworms for raid utility. Compare that to smart heals, AoE LoH, devotion aura, BoP, sacrifice and EF blanketing during low points of damage or when you're offtanking and you start to see problems with tank balance.

[Deleted]

paladin=brewmaster > warrior=dk> druid

That is what I feel like when raiding, however dks if played properly might be bit better then warrior.

[Tojara]

If Warriors had the utility of a DK I would say they are equal. However two defensive raid CDs and one offensive raid CD say otherwise.

[Radio]

Second, it does take quite a bit of work to manage shuffle properly if you are playing properly. If you are getting multiple minutes remaining on your shuffle timer, you either have too much haste, or you're not using guard/purfying brew. Either way, you're not doing it right.

Even with tiny haste levels there's pretty much no excuse for dropping shuffle, even on fights like Galakras when you're sitting on your thumbs between add waves, BoK is a huge source of our damage and almost always the smartest thing to spend your chi on. Additionally, many monks use purify and guard WAY more than they need to.

[Kiea]

In my expirence in 10man, I've done with druid, paladin and death knight in all combinations, and double paladin

Paladins are king here, their damage is nice, but besides that it's really their raid utility, Hand of Protection, Freedom and Sacrifice are all amazing abilities, no other tank have a cooldown they can put on other tanks aside from Warriors, then they have Aura Mastery, not the greatest CD since it is only magical, but it has the bonus on Thok with allowing healers to cast so.

Last but not least is paladins controlled raidhealing, from Holy Prism and Light's Hammer to Eternal Flame, on some fights you can hot the entire raid with EF by using Holy Avenger, and then on other fights where its more constant damage, you can do it with Divine Purpose, on say Dark Shamans, it's amazing for the Haromm group. Also on Spoils of Pandaria, in the mantid room the combination of HA and EF makes healing it so much easier, I was doing the same or more healing than the healer during the boss, the mogu room Holy Prism is amazing to top people after their AoE. Paladins are also gods on Thok, don't think anyone but maybe monk with chi torpedo can compete at all.

As far as druids and DK's are concerned, these I don't play persoanlly but I prefer a death knight in most cases, the grip is so amazing for several fights, then they have some nice raid utility from slows to stuns at range, they don't have too much in terms of raid cd's or healing though, blood worms only do shitloads on Malkorok.

Druids are okay, but unless you have a death knight DPS, I would take a death knight tank, however druids are pretty good still.