dps monk in 10 man, go for it od no?

[Totaltotemic]

What WW needs is just DPS CDs, their DPS is just way too stale(and a bit too low). Their "utility" for what you can count includes the best AoE stun in the game, can soak magic debuffs twice/often(Malkorok HC for example) and of course the fantastic mobility through FSK and Roll.

There's literally nothing there that any tank class or a Rogue doesn't already bring. It's hard to justify that what makes up for not having any kind of raid CD whatsoever (seriously, DKs got one patched in, Enhance got one on top of the one they already had, and Rogues had one patched in) is something that you generally only need one of (stun) or something a ton of people can do (Shadow Priest, Boomkin, and Rogue all have huge damage reductions on fairly short CDs).

Now maybe if Ring of Peace or Zen Meditation could actually be used for anything outside of extremely specific mechanics there might be a use for WW, but as it stands WW's only value is pure DPS numbers, which is a pretty awful place while Rogues exist and melee spots are limited.

[Deleted]

I dont understand this huuuuuuge focus on raid cooldowns.
Beeing able to immune nearly everything on short cooldowns is worth far more then usually given credit for.
Most healing througput spells heal the 6 most injured targets in 10man, so ahving one TPS take no damage DOES help the whole raid.

It's just that most players suck at surviving on their own even if they do have the tools for it that calls for RAID COOLDOWNS.

[Geodew]

I dont understand this huuuuuuge focus on raid cooldowns.
Beeing able to immune nearly everything on short cooldowns is worth far more then usually given credit for.
Most healing througput spells heal the 6 most injured targets in 10man, so ahving one TPS take no damage DOES help the whole raid.

It's just that most players suck at surviving on their own even if they do have the tools for it that calls for RAID COOLDOWNS.

Pretty much any DPS has personals, and I'd think Tranq, Vampiric Embrace, Healthstones, Healing Tide, etc. are more valuable

[NeverStop]

I dont understand this huuuuuuge focus on raid cooldowns.
Beeing able to immune nearly everything on short cooldowns is worth far more then usually given credit for.
Most healing througput spells heal the 6 most injured targets in 10man, so ahving one TPS take no damage DOES help the whole raid.

It's just that most players suck at surviving on their own even if they do have the tools for it that calls for RAID COOLDOWNS.

I hope you realize Thok, Siegecrafter, Garrosh on Heroic all require raid cooldown rotations right? And it's not because "most players suck at surviving on their own." It's because those fights have very high healing or DPS requirements that require raid CDs to heal through bursts of damage or to drop healers so you can meet DPS checks.

Many top guilds run 4+ warlocks. Show me one top guild that runs 4+ WW.

[Geodew]

Many top guilds run 4+ warlocks. Show me one top guild that runs 4+ WW.

Well, be fair, Warlocks' utility is overpowered and devs know it

[TheWindWalker]

Beating a dead horse here, but can you imagine how much more likely it would be that Windwalkers would be picked up as PuGs for a guild run if they actually had a cooldown that significantly increased the chance of surviving while a healer is being battle rez'd? Like Ancestral Guidance (40% damage converted to healing for three nearby party members) or something more thematic like a cooldown that temporarily gives you 100% eminence (could be on both WW and MW) and lasts for a whole 30 seconds but it cannot heal yourself. Something specifically with a "Selfless" name to it.

[Tehterokkar]

Many top guilds run 4+ warlocks. Show me one top guild that runs 4+ WW.

Warlocks are one of the best DPS Classes DPS-wise also they bring Gateways which are HIGHLY useful on many encounters(Lei Shen Heroic being best example), they can have equal HP to a Tank pretty much(can soak things and take more beating) and good defensive CDs("bubble" for example). And most of all, all 3 specs are viable to use in raid and each fill a niche(Destro single-target/sustained AoE, Affli multi-target, Demo burst AoE/burst single-target).

[Golforth]

Monks are still the new class of the expansion, so no one can except them to be already perfect or in their "role". There will probably a few big changes with the next expansion to improve the situation. But WW Monks are by no means a bad class..like every other class we've got strong points and weak points. WW Monks are ridiculously strong on fights with much cleave, movement or both. We've got a pretty good survivability on short CD's and do at least decent dmg.

[Deleted]

Meh I dunno. Monks are okay, but a 10 man raid could really just bring a rogue and a warrior, and they got a perfect melee setup. They got really solid dps, and they provide raid cooldowns, while also having really good self cooldowns.

I dont understand this huuuuuuge focus on raid cooldowns.
Beeing able to immune nearly everything on short cooldowns is worth far more then usually given credit for.
Most healing througput spells heal the 6 most injured targets in 10man, so ahving one TPS take no damage DOES help the whole raid.

It's just that most players suck at surviving on their own even if they do have the tools for it that calls for RAID COOLDOWNS.

I'd take a class with raid cooldowns any day over a class with only self cooldowns on most of the later heroic fights in SoO. Thok especially comes to mind.

[TheWindWalker]

WW Monks are ridiculously strong on fights with much cleave, movement or both. We've got a pretty good survivability on short CD's and do at least decent dmg.

Remember, when the expansion came out (after all those months of beta) Windwalkers didn't even have their +10% speed passive, yet. Also, our cleave was completely non-existent until 5.2 and was almost ignored until 5.4 when it was buffed. Things we're good at tend to be things we begged to be good at during this expansion cycle.

[Totaltotemic]

Monks are still the new class of the expansion, so no one can except them to be already perfect or in their "role".

Yeah I'd play the whole "no utility" thing off as this too if DKs, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans didn't all get patched-in raid cooldowns for no particular reason when they were already very desirable melee DPS.

[Deleted]

A lot of people here seems to say that WW are underpreforming and don't bring anything in terms of utility. Monks doesn't really bring much in terms of raid CDs, no, but they can soak pretty much anything with 2 90% reductions, a 100% hp absorb and a 20% health and damage reduction, all on short CDs. We aren't like warlocks and everyone wants to bring like 5 to a 25man raid, but having one is quite good, and that goes for 10 man aswell.

For example, a WW monk played right is in the top regarding few-target sustained cleave, (protectors and shamans for example), and sustained AoE is very strong too. I won't say WW is beasts on single target but atleast I get along just fine. If you feel that you can master playing WW it's definitely worth a shot. And if isn't heroic progression you are talking about then what class you play won't matter, as long as you know how to push buttons

[Pyromelter]

Does Zen Meditation not count as a raid CD? http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115176

...it's more than mages and hunters have anyway.

I'd probably agree that something like Ring of Peace is equivalent to a mage's Ring of Frost for PvE purposes.

Although I understand the point most people are making, that BrM and MW are in a much better spot than WW. Still, there is something beyond "zero" raid utility that monks have. It's not much, but it is still something.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I'd play the whole "no utility" thing off as this too if DKs, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans didn't all get patched-in raid cooldowns for no particular reason when they were already very desirable melee DPS.

Rogues and shaman have had CD's all expansion, DK's were the ones that got the patched buff utility, mostly because they were being huge babies about not having a decent raid cd.

[Geodew]

Monks are still the new class of the expansion, so no one can except them to be already perfect or in their "role". There will probably a few big changes with the next expansion to improve the situation.

Serious question: Are you aware that the last thing WW heard from the devs was Ghostcrawler saying they weren't planning on giving WW more utility?

[Pyromelter]

I hope you realize Thok, Siegecrafter, Garrosh on Heroic all require raid cooldown rotations right? .

Specifically Thok, does Zen Med not work on Thok?

[TheWindWalker]

Serious question: Are you aware that the last thing WW heard from the devs was Ghostcrawler saying they weren't planning on giving WW more utility?

I had actually forgotten about that. I guess they didn't really take 10m into account with their testing because Chi Wave would need at least double the healing bounces and glyph of Targeting Expulsion is just about as worthless as a glyph can be with that 50% reduction on it.

[Totaltotemic]

Rogues and shaman have had CD's all expansion, DK's were the ones that got the patched buff utility, mostly because they were being huge babies about not having a decent raid cd.

Smoke Bomb didn't get the 20% damage reduction until 5.2, and in 5.4 Shamans got HTT baseline on top of AG.

Also Zen Meditation does nothing, the spell redirect effect is essentially a grounding totem but to yourself instead of a meaningless totem. The extremely few effects it does redirect (like heroic Immerseus dot) will kill you anyways. Monks of every spec consider it as nothing more than a 90% channeled damage reduction, which works especially unwell on Thok because he interrupts it with his AoE.

[Necroticwolf]

Regardless of the WW's dps. I really enjoy the class and it's style of play. Sure there is better melee out there but I am one of the higher dps in my guild and always asked to go on a raid. Mind you it's flex and normal 10's but still. I don't have any complaints and proud of what I can do.

[unlightable]

Reason to bring WW into 10m? To pickup leather scraps those 5 warlocks don't want. At least that was the reason I have choosen a monk in 5.4 instead of warlock.
But for serious progression you have no reason to pick WW whatsoever.

[Inthislzon]

Specifically Thok, does Zen Med not work on Thok?

thok interrupts with his aoe and zenmed is a channel. You connect the dots

Hell i can't think of a single boss in the entire history of wow where zenmed does something outside reducing damage for the monk.

Reason to bring WW into 10m? To pickup leather scraps those 5 warlocks don't want. At least that was the reason I have choosen a monk in 5.4 instead of warlock.

Rogue/BrM/Guardian say hi.