[Fire] Which bonus is better 4pT15 vs 4pT16?

[Deleted]

I have 4pT15 HC and now I also have 4pT16 Flex so there is no much difference of stats (543 vs 548), I think the 5% crit on pyroblast (which is the most important damage source) is better than the bonus of T16, so I'm not sure if I should change the tier.

In general I think the bonuses of this tier are the worst of this expansion so far, really disappointed . As arcane there are no doubts that T15 is much, much better, frost well... is not suitable for pve if you want to maximize your dps and as fire... what do you think?

[Zatetic]

It is my understanding that for fire, the 4p is quite decent and should be rushed. I'm going to say flex 4p t16 > hm 4p t15 for fire.

[Deleted]

Fire T16 4P is well good, and should be used asap if you have it. It is by far better than the T15 4p.

[Deleted]

Glad to be wrong then

[mugutu]

Because of how little crit we actually gain moving up to T16 gear (I'm actually down about 2k rating since ToT HC gear) the 4 piece bonus is extremely helpful. I was thoroughly convinced it would be a terrible bonus but because of how much haste Blizz decided to shove down our throats this tier the set bonus is a boon.

[Nezek]

Both are strong, as a preference on which is "better", I would go with the 5% extra crit on pyro from the T15, however, as a straight upgrade, the secondary stats and intellect gains along with set bonuses all together from T16 is going to outweigh the T15, even more so Heroic T16.

[Abraxis]

T16 4p Flex > T15 4p Hc

[Smigel]

Because of how little crit we actually gain moving up to T16 gear (I'm actually down about 2k rating since ToT HC gear) the 4 piece bonus is extremely helpful. I was thoroughly convinced it would be a terrible bonus but because of how much haste Blizz decided to shove down our throats this tier the set bonus is a boon.

If there is crit on every T16 tier piece, how are you losing that much crit rating from T15?

[Methusula]

If there is crit on every T16 tier piece, how are you losing that much crit rating from T15?

No crit trinkets and nearly every gem slot is red. Makes a huge difference.

[deadman1]

No crit trinkets and nearly every gem slot is red. Makes a huge difference.

you are losing TWO yellow sockets and the trinkets have nothing to do with tier pieces, and only 3 of the t15 pieces had crit on them whereas all of the t16 have crit on them.

So not including the trinkets you should have a net gain of crit.

EDIT - Forgot a word so this (condescending) guy below me thought I was stupid when in fact I was correct (edit in red)

[fearist]

you are losing yellow sockets and the trinkets have nothing to do with tier pieces, and only 3 of the t15 pieces had crit on them whereas all of the t16 have crit on them.

So not including the trinkets you should have a net gain of crit.

Losing yellow sockets do have something to do with the tier peices lol, idk why you even made this post to try to counter argue his point, and you would only use 4 out of the 5 t16 piece, so thats only 1 extra piece that has crit on it which is ~300-500 extra crit ( around the same amount lost by the yellow sockets). so yeah i dont get y u made this post when in reality, you really don't gain a lot of crit no matter how the new tier is itemized.

[Pyromelter]

I think what many people forget is that Intellect is still an extremely strong stat for mages - yes, crit is way better when you multiply by 2, but 5 ilvls of Int (flex>t15 hc by 5) alone along with all the crit on the tier pieces is a significant upgrade over T15.

One thing that makes this kind of a wonky thing is that it still seems simming for mages is completely messed up. Last time I ran SimC on both myself and a couple of other mages for comparison, it was putting Mastery >>> haste > crit, which we know is very wrong.

The reason I mention that is that I can't say (for myself) whether INT/Crit or Expertise/Crit gems should be the ones in the red sockets - I see all the high level mages with exp/crit, but I'm not completely convinced. This would also cause the issue of this thread to be questionable, because all those red sockets with +80int would again be a substantial boost to spellpower while another mild gain in crit, ameliorating any loss from the T15 4pc bonus.

I miss the days when it was more obvious how gems worked. The fact that you need a simulator - for virtually every class - really messes things up. It just feels wrong that we would have to gem expertise for max dps. Very wrong.

[deadman1]

Losing yellow sockets do have something to do with the tier peices lol, idk why you even made this post to try to counter argue his point, and you would only use 4 out of the 5 t16 piece, so thats only 1 extra piece that has crit on it which is ~300-500 extra crit ( around the same amount lost by the yellow sockets). so yeah i dont get y u made this post when in reality, you really don't gain a lot of crit no matter how the new tier is itemized.

I meant to say you are only losing TWO yellow sockets. But actually I was wrong the first time you are actually only losing ONE yellow socket

And I know you only use 4 so that is a gain of 998 crit on the one extra tier piece and a net loss of 320 crit on the two yellow sockets which comes to a net gain of 678 crit just on normal mode tier pieces with only gems and crit on the 4th item being taken into account.

That doesn't include the gain of crit from the item level or the crit you get from the hybrid gems.

The main reason behind my original and this post is ... The only reason people are losing crit is because of the trinkets, and like I said before those have nothing to do with the tier pieces.


T15 Had - 3 yellow sockets 2 reds and 1 blue
T16 Has - 2 yellow and 5 red sockets.

So i really don't know why you made your post. In the future, tone down the condescension in your posts.

[fearist]

na na na, i don't think u understand who I am, I am blugatti and I do what I do. and if u would look at my post i said that we don't GAIN A LOT, not that WE LOSE A LOT of crit. so you are actually proving my point, and i think you forgot to add that the crit gain is even smaller because on the tier 15 piece that came without crit, we reforged crit onto it. thanks blugatti 1, the people -0.

[Deleted]

I think what many people forget is that Intellect is still an extremely strong stat for mages - yes, crit is way better when you multiply by 2, but 5 ilvls of Int (flex>t15 hc by 5) alone along with all the crit on the tier pieces is a significant upgrade over T15.

One thing that makes this kind of a wonky thing is that it still seems simming for mages is completely messed up. Last time I ran SimC on both myself and a couple of other mages for comparison, it was putting Mastery >>> haste > crit, which we know is very wrong.

The reason I mention that is that I can't say (for myself) whether INT/Crit or Expertise/Crit gems should be the ones in the red sockets - I see all the high level mages with exp/crit, but I'm not completely convinced. This would also cause the issue of this thread to be questionable, because all those red sockets with +80int would again be a substantial boost to spellpower while another mild gain in crit, ameliorating any loss from the T15 4pc bonus.

I miss the days when it was more obvious how gems worked. The fact that you need a simulator - for virtually every class - really messes things up. It just feels wrong that we would have to gem expertise for max dps. Very wrong.

The idea of gemming for hit/expertise is to maximise your valuable secondary stats (crit, haste). If the gain in crit and haste outweighs your loss in intellect, it's a dps gain to gem exp + crit. I don't think this is a complicated idea at all - it's very much the same as deciding whether or not a socket bonus is worthwhile, or whether or not to put a 320 crit gem in a yellow socket.

The only uncertain aspect of this would be the worth of haste relative to intellect, but I think you can just pick a stance (1 haste = 1 crit? 1 haste = 1 int?) and run with it. Not sure on the maths of it, but stacking haste will improve your uptime on the 2set bonus, and your bomb damage (the more your haste increases, the lower stacks you need to get an extra tick on Living Bomb).

And just to come back to the original point quickly, and second what you said, obviously the T16 is an improvement on T15 if you gain enough int to offset a loss of crit, or if you gain more int AND more crit (because the T16 4set bonus is just as good as T15, if not moreso).

[deadman1]

na na na, i don't think u understand who I am, I am blugatti and I do what I do. and if u would look at my post i said that we don't GAIN A LOT, not that WE LOSE A LOT of crit. so you are actually proving my point, and i think you forgot to add that the crit gain is even smaller because on the tier 15 piece that came without crit, we reforged crit onto it. thanks blugatti 1, the people -0.

I wasn't talking to you in the first place, I was talking to the other guy, you butted in just so you could be condescending and correct me. I never said we lost crit in any of my posts ever. I was telling the other guy that we were gaining crit in the first place.

Clearly you think highly of yourself, and that's great, but I haven't a clue who you are.


You get 0 points for reading comprehension and another 0 for trying to correct me when you agreed with my original sentiment.

[Deleted]

the t16 4p is more than 5% crit on pyro.. just fyi.

[Polarthief]

the t16 4p is more than 5% crit on pyro.. just fyi.

6.5% Crit*. Critical Mass gets applied to it.

Regardless, it's still significantly better, especially on Alter Times because the initial ones (both of them) will be guaranteed crits. Definitely rush 4P T16 (though I'd try to steer clear of LFR if you have Heroic T15. Too much stat loss)

[Deleted]

T16 4p was a really nice upgrade for me when doing bosses like heroic Fallen Protectors where I went crit > mastery > haste instead for the spread Combustions. That guaranteed crit is not something to underestimate.

And if you think it's horrible that T16 will barely give you any more crit than you had in BiS T15, then think again. All our secondary stats are awesome and there is very little hit on the pieces in SoO, which means you can often go fully exp/crit in red sockets = more secondary stats. At the moment, crit is only slightly better than haste/mastery for me at ~51% buffed and if I got a few crit pieces without haste, haste would probably surpass as a stat.

So don't worry about little crit, we don't really need more. That guaranteed crit is extremely nice for Combustions though.

Heck, even when I do my crit > mastery > haste build, haste is about 10% more powerful for single target dps than my crit according to sims, but I think that's because my gear is very haste lacking, but crit high. (4k haste, 18k crit, 11k mastery if I remember right, after reforge)

[Syrathia]

Megamisama mind linking your armory or giving a character name so i can take a look at this for my own builds