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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.
    Who the hell said anything about 75 casuals? You like to take what I say and change the entire meaning to fit your narrative in your head. I said if 75 world first raiders went on strike Blizzard would not even notice it. If the casual players quit then Blizzard would about face and fix it. I didn’t say 75 casuals. 75 of any type of player regardless of raiding skills/time is not going to be noticed. Saying 75 world first raiders can make Blizzard sit up and change its ways is either the argument of a pre-teen or someone with an over inflated mentality as to the worth of a raider guild to a 7.5 million playerbase.
    Hardcore raiders represent 10-15% of the playerbase, loosing 750k to 1million players is a scarring wound, loosing 6.25 million casual players is a death blow. To the bean counter working at blizzard a world first raiding bean is still a bean.

  2. #442
    Stood in the Fire Ghoulthaz's Avatar
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    Just have flex replace LFR. Still a casual experience and really, flex takes the same amount of time if not less than LFR.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Blizzard determines who qualifies for joining a raid and not the playerbase? Yes in LFR only and it really is working out great is it?

    Ofcourse you can not make your own group? And ofcourse, like all the naive people on the forums think, there are no pugs with reasonable requirements?


    I've cleared Flex in a completely random pug without voice communication. I also don't understand how this matters when the difficulty remains the same? Does it suddenly require voice communication because the name changed?


    Yes, just like in every other form of group. This happens in LFR, Flex and guilds and also in 5 mans and scenarios. This will never change and the only ones who can do something about it are the players themselves by communicating to eachother what they expect, want and can offer. You are not able to do that in LFR.



    This will automatically remove all (edit: wait... not all but a lot. Before someone is going to nitpick about that.) the "toxic" behaviour from your groups because you decide who you play with instead of being put in a group with random players every single time.

    I think the whole current votekick system is flawed. Voting is a good thing but all the protection and limitations can go for all I care. Been over this in other threads (mostly on official forums) so I am not going into this again in this thread.
    I want Blizzard to decide who is worthy to do content, not You. Frankly I already call your judgement of who is worthy into question. If you allow the playerbase to decide who gets to do content then you will just get the raiding guild dilemma all over again, only the elite get invited in and those who have not proven themselves get stuck in go no where groups or get to do nothing. You're all just going to have to learn to get along and do LFR togeather or choose to not do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If LFR didn't work then people would not use it. It may have its flaws but its obviously a system that is working for the rest of us.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    How often do you play those? Every day? Once a week? Once a month? Would you continue to shell out $15 a month for each of those titles for the privilege of playing them again when you got the urge? I didn't think so.
    I don't play WoW every day either. Yet I still pay for it. Just like the various iterations of all the other games I mentioned. What is your point? Value for money? Because if that is it then it makes little sense since World of WarCraft is one of the most overpriced games in existence. Pay to acquire, pay monthly for access to servers, and pay for additional services where what costs the company next to nothing costs the customer 20 euros, in a period of economic crisis and game-bundles nonetheless.

    We are all on the losing side just by subscribing to the game. If you are looking for value for money then you are better off with Steam, or browser games. For 15 euros a month, on a 7 million subscriptions multiplier, we could actually have the immense in size game I am talking about. Not only instances to repeat each day/week. But the ways of the people that call the shots at Blizzard are such that that won't probably happen any time soon, if ever. The way things are, your, and mine, and everyone else's 15 euros a month go mostly into high-corporate accounts, while we end up with an excuse of an island to stand around and wait to kill a rare mob that spawns as if we have a date with it.

    So no, I don't play Street Fighter every day. Or Super Mario. Or Grand Theft Auto. But I don't play WoW either. First of all because I am just too busy for that and want to do other things as well. And secondly because even if I wanted to there is no content to sustain entertaining sessions on such a schedule in the game as it is for me. WoW would be just as boring if I played almost every day as Zelda would be. Only I pay for Zelda once every release.

    PS:To be clear, I don't dislike raiding. I actually like it a lot, although I would prefer if it was more connected to the world of the game. But I like exploring and questing more, and there is a severe lack of such content in the game right now, and has been for years.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-10-31 at 03:47 PM.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithien View Post
    So no, I don't play Street Fighter every day. Or Super Mario. Or Grand Theft Auto. But I don't play WoW either. First of all because I am just too busy for that and want to do other things as well. And secondly because even if I wanted to there is no content to sustain an entertaining sessions on such a schedule in the game as it is for me. WoW would be just as boring if I played almost every day as Zelda would be. Only I pay for Zelda once every release.
    My point was that if those other games worked like WoW you would be shelling out $75 per month instead of $15 per month to play them. That would add up over time and you would eventually drop one or more of those subs. That's why those games aren't comparable to WoW. As the cost of a game increases the demand for it decreases. It's simple economics. WoW has an ongoing price so its demand will decrease over time in the absence of new content. That's why it's completely different from those other games. That was the point I was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithien View Post
    PS:To be clear, I don't dislike raiding. I actually like it a lot, although I would prefer if it was more connected to the world of the game. But I like exploring and questing more, and there is a severe lack of such content in the game right now, and has been for years.
    I am completely in agreement with you there, but that was a conscious choice on Blizzard's part because they wanted to focus more on raiding and less on other stuff. The irony in Cataclysm was how they went through all that trouble to revamp all the starter areas and then completely undermined those efforts by introducing mechanisms in the game to guarantee that players would lose interest in each of those areas before they were even half way through them. It's a pity.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #446
    Since you're not raiding, take the time to study your class during your offline time and learn to play.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'm not convinced I like that attitude, but I've no doubt that you're absolutely right; it's casual players who provide the vast, vast majority of the playerbase in this game and it's high-time they stopped being fed reconstituted and watered down "content", just so that Blizzard can justify making rock hard raids from normal up.

    But to the OP's question:

    1) Fix the actual raiding platform; four modes is too much. Downtune normal mode and make it flexible, with heroic only being available on 25-man. The next step is putting up with the almighty din that'd come from 10-man heroic raiders, then three months down the line the raiding game ends up in far healthier shape again because 25-man guilds were salvaged. Leave LFR where it is. Lastly, remove the Thunder/Warforged items, they're not achieving anything.

    2) Drop the size of raids to 9 to 12 bosses per tier, and then ensure that there is at least one dungeon per patch. Scrap challenge modes, make heroic modes truly heroic, and give them rewards equal to LFR (meta-achievements can be used for mounts/mogging gear). Stop, however, with the rail-roaded, twenty minute, 3-boss pieces of shit we've been served up for years and start thinking back to the original Stratholme and Blackrock Spire. THAT is what a dungeon should be, and it forms endgame for casual players. Then, reinstate the dungeon sets of The Burning Crusade such as the Oblivion Raiment and the like so that players can still progress in them.

    3) Overhaul the profession system entirely so that it, too, can be a part of endgame. Alternative Chat recently spoke about this, but professions have been entirely stripped of their depth since mid-Wrath. It sucks. Systems could be put in place for skilled crafters so that they can make a plan, but see it get a bonus if they're particularly skilled (via skill-based profession quests, number of patterns known, etc/etc). Bonuses could include them being already 2/2 upgraded, or simply a higher item level or with more secondary stats. The absolute gold here would be a cool proc. For the love of Jeebus, bring back crafting specializations and make mastery time consuming.

    4) Major lore events need to stop happening in raids. Domination Point was a great example of how to do this, and the new tech for random events on the Timeless Isle make more possibilities land squarely on the table. Reward exploration outside of quest objectives with cool visual content rather than items destined to become vendor materials (but make them repeatable, similar to the fall of the Lich King).

    5) Develop scenarios so that they can be placed earlier in the game and act as proving grounds on the way up. I'd be particularly keen on solo-scenarios that revealed major lore points such as the death of Illidan or the destruction of Yogg-Saron. Players in a "raid" of NPC's can then be taught boss-related mechanics that increase their skill level while helping them to enjoy the rich lore of the game, rather than the dull proving grounds which don't really do much of anything.

    6) For fuck's sake, fix PvP. Stop treating it like a meaningless side game and give the community some respect. Balance it properly with PvP specs rather than trying to shoe-horn every spec into raiding, then make the content more interesting than merely random BG's or a bit of arena. Bring back world PvP zones, and make some more from the earlier game but scale players so that there's no pointless ganking. Then make a set of PvP campaigns so that PvP players can enjoy the sense of progression from the "new content" angle rather than merely farming gear.

    7) Beef up the difficulty of levelling quests and dungeons. For crying out loud it's too easy, too fast and laughably pointless. Failure isn't introduced until level 90 and that's all kinds of wrong. Levels can then be made more meaningful rather than largely forgettable, while also making casual players appreciate the content more. Stop treating new players as if they're droopy-eyed armless children who can't press buttons. They're not.

    8) Lastly, and by no means least, to Blizzard: Stop blaming one side of the community when the other side cries. It's putting people at each other's throat. Take responsibility for bad design decisions rather than blaming an intangible group of people, then hiding behind "we have all the data". Stop assuming everyone wants to raid just because you do, and think about how to provide meaningful content for casual players rather than useless, queued mini-games that have no real impact on a character.

    That's my starter for 10.
    I really just want to hug you right now, please why can't we have more people like you. That was the single greatest post I've ever seen.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by robotis View Post
    Assuming you realize most people won't ever step up to Flex/Normal/Heroic, and rarely, if ever do guilded/organized activities.

    2) The late wrath model:
    A highly puggable raid/part of a raid
    Dungeons
    let people do dungeons and get full epics, and make it possible to pug the old content. OR you could make LFR harder, but idk if that would help.. bad players would still queue and be carried i guess. In theory, though, it could make people actually try.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...

    But I would add a lot of hard dungeons. Like hour or two hour long ones. If thu can't do an hour then they can't do LFR now.

    Or put them in proving grounds till they can do average dps. Then flex.
    vanilla BRD, eh?

    ........me likie

  10. #450
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

    While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.
    i entirely concur with this statement.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by zykaz View Post
    let people do dungeons and get full epics, and make it possible to pug the old content. OR you could make LFR harder, but idk if that would help.. bad players would still queue and be carried i guess. In theory, though, it could make people actually try.
    If you put epics in non-raid content then the same guys screaming now about LFR would be screaming that you can get it in easier than lfr content and the rest would be screaming that their guild would require them to do that to get a purple. Look at how much bitching there was because a purple ring was at the end of a daily rep grind.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterpd85 View Post
    vanilla BRD, eh?

    ........me likie
    That place was huge, it could take hours if your group decided they were going to do a full clear and even then nobody ever went for full clear and it still took hours. If you didn't have the key in a group (unlikely) then it would take a good long while. That instance is legendary for me much like Scholomance is too.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    My point was that if those other games worked like WoW you would be shelling out $75 per month instead of $15 per month to play them. That would add up over time and you would eventually drop one or more of those subs. That's why those games aren't comparable to WoW. As the cost of a game increases the demand for it decreases. It's simple economics. WoW has an ongoing price so its demand will decrease over time in the absence of new content. That's why it's completely different from those other games. That was the point I was making.
    Oh ok, I get it now. I was mostly referring to genre identity and mechanics with my mention of those games, not prices. I see a lot of people present the reasoning that the game as a concept has become too tiring due to its age; which completely disregards the overall genre's age, and the fact that all genres and their iterations through new releases are old in essence, with just some mechanical and aesthetic improvements, yet still successful. And the fact that this game gets constantly refreshed alleviates quite a lot of the problems of its age. I mean, StarCraft 2 is practically StarCraft with better technological elements and some mechanical changes; it's not some brand new and different game, yet people bought it and played it just fine.

    So, in a close-to-ideal world, with all the money the game makes, there could be an effort to produce as much content as vanilla had, for each expansion, (but for all the activities of the game, not just raiding or arena or questing, everything) to keep players happily busy, until the next. Alas we don't live in such a world.

  14. #454
    High Overlord Chloral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.
    More like, hundreds of thousands of casuals leaving and the next thing you know the "hardcores" all crying on the forums that the game is dying because of Flexible (Because they removed LFR).

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Who the hell said anything about 75 casuals? You like to take what I say and change the entire meaning to fit your narrative in your head. I said if 75 world first raiders went on strike Blizzard would not even notice it. If the casual players quit then Blizzard would about face and fix it. I didn’t say 75 casuals. 75 of any type of player regardless of raiding skills/time is not going to be noticed. Saying 75 world first raiders can make Blizzard sit up and change its ways is either the argument of a pre-teen or someone with an over inflated mentality as to the worth of a raider guild to a 7.5 million playerbase.
    Hardcore raiders represent 10-15% of the playerbase, loosing 750k to 1million players is a scarring wound, loosing 6.25 million casual players is a death blow. To the bean counter working at blizzard a world first raiding bean is still a bean.
    More like, hundreds of thousands of casuals leaving and the next thing you know the "hardcores" all crying on the forums that the game is dying because of Flexible (Because they removed LFR).
    What I'm saying is, you two are making bad comparisons. You assume only the top 3 world first competitors would leave, yet you ALSO assume removing LFR would suddenly cause 6 of the 7 million players to up and leave.

    Make valid comparisons. 75 players, percentage wise vs. the 750k or so who do even a single heroic mode, is a very small number. IF 6 of the 7 million players do LFR, and less than 1% of that leave, it is a small number. Apples to Oranges.

    Would removing LFR be a deathblow? Yes. I'm not arguing against that. Just make good arguments that support your point instead of things that aren't even comparable.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2013-10-31 at 04:15 PM.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    What I'm saying is, you two are making bad comparisons. You assume only the top 3 world first competitors would leave, yet you ALSO assume removing LFR would suddenly cause 6 of the 7 million players to up and leave.

    Make valid comparisons. 75 players, percentage wise vs. the 750k or so who do even a single heroic mode, is a very small number. IF 6 of the 7 million players do LFR, and less than 1% of that leave, it is a small number. Apples to Oranges.

    Would removing LFR be a deathblow? Yes. I'm not arguing against that. Just make good arguments that support your point instead of things that aren't even comparable.
    I made no assumptions that world first competitors would leave, I merely called out someone who suggested that the top 3 raiding guilds leaving would make blizzard stop and pay attention. To which I said Blizzard would not even notice it as a bump in the road. 75 people no matter their skill won't make Blizzard take notice.

    Try to not re-imagine what I actually say and keep up.

  17. #457
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I made no assumptions that world first competitors would leave, I merely called out someone who suggested that the top 3 raiding guilds leaving would make blizzard stop and pay attention. To which I said Blizzard would not even notice it as a bump in the road. 75 people no matter their skill won't make Blizzard take notice.

    Try to not re-imagine what I actually say and keep up.
    i would expect the general interpretation of Blizzard and perhaps even a signifigant proportion of the fans, were the top three quilds to quit, is that their were simply a new set of top three guild, who ever they might be, and they would generally forget about to the current top three if they left.

    but this whole line of argument is rather spurious since it's all counter-factual.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  18. #458
    people that think heroic raids should only be 25 man are just being assinine imo.....why the hell would you strip content from players who do not raid 25 man. Yet you complain about not having access as lower skilled players to higher end raids......

    How much sense does that make....lets take someone else's access away so we can have ours? nice ideology in that....hypocrites

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Titheon View Post
    Since you're not raiding, take the time to study your class during your offline time and learn to play.
    Most people don't know they are doing something wrong and when the only experience they have of someone informing them of it is 'LOL, U SuX, L2PLY! BOOT!' They just assume your a jerk and pay you no heed. Find a way to get people informed without being insulting would go a long way towards people looking up how to play better.

  20. #460
    Mechagnome The Iron Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

    While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.
    You obviously are a wrath baby or later, because we (the casuals) never got sick of them because there were so many and they were challenging enough to sate our PvE endgame. Not to mention, alot of the gear back then was much closer power-wise (aka ilvl) than now. There wasnt a huge gap of a difference between Heroic Dungeon gear/epics/crafted than tier 5. Just because YOU don't want LFR gone doesn't mean it should stay. Endgame was just fine before LFR. Matter of fact, this community was much better/friendlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH816 View Post
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