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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    They need to slow everything down. A piece or 2 from running 5 mans over a few days should be a lot. People act like they can't live without LFR even though the game has been without it for the majority of its lifetime.
    Well in Wrath that was possible because Heroic Dungeons gave two levels of gear: blue and starter purples. So you would run dungeons and rapidly get your blues, but then you could keep running them and gradually acquire a set of starter purples over weeks or even months. Even in BC you had blue heroic dungeon gear with multiple gem slots and even set bonuses. That ended in Cataclysm when Blizzard decided that Heroic Dungeon meant crap blues and the end bosses began dropping the same old crap as all the other bosses, except you also got valor for killing them. They supposedly were rolling back to BC-style gearing, but they forgot to roll back the tier discrepancies from double digits to single digits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Due to your replies of shouldn't need to research how to maximize your performance and for more content outside of heroics that cater to very few...
    I'll re-post what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The suggestion that we need to "study" to "learn to play" has far larger implications than the examples you gave. Each raid boss is an entirely new game in and of itself. It requires a unique set of skills to be executed in a particular manner, and it requires a minimum of 10 people to do it. I personally do "study" and "learn to play" before raiding, but I'm not silly enough to expect every other WoW player to go that far. Blizzard needs to draw in far more than the number of players who are as enthusiastic about the game as I am to maintain their revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    it seems pretty obvious that you stand with the people who desire easier normal/heroic raids and with that crowd comes the lack of ability or time to accomplish the harder raids. I'm not bashing at all, I just think it is unfair for others to want more at the expense of ANY player base. If that is not the case then I apologize but that is what I get out of your posts.
    So actually I am one of those players who runs Flex because my guild transferred servers, and I think it's tuned just fine. The guild that I run Flex with is 9/14, so they seem to be progressing OK even though I seem to be out-healing my replacement in my Flex/LFR gear. Then again maybe she's just slacking because it's Flex. I don't care about how hard heroic raids are, but I do think that it's a good business decision on Blizzard's part to start toning down their difficulty after the content has been out for over six months and is about to be made obsolete in six more. That's just because the people who were going to do it pre-nerf have already done so and the remainder have probably hit an insurmountable wall. Rather than have them quit and risk them not coming back it's better to just nerf. They'll be able to faceroll it in a matter of months anyway. Hopefully I've clarified my stance on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
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  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Not having something for the majority of its lifetime does not mean that people don't like it or that they can not do without it. It's just something you like to say because in your head it sounds really good but ultimately it means nothing.
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
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  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Well in Wrath that was possible because Heroic Dungeons gave two levels of gear: blue and starter purples. So you would run dungeons and rapidly get your blues, but then you could keep running them and gradually acquire a set of starter purples over weeks or even months. Even in BC you had blue heroic dungeon gear with multiple gem slots and even set bonuses. That ended in Cataclysm when Blizzard decided that Heroic Dungeon meant crap blues and the end bosses began dropping the same old crap as all the other bosses, except you also got valor for killing them. They supposedly were rolling back to BC-style gearing, but they forgot to roll back the tier discrepancies from double digits to single digits.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'll re-post what I said:



    So actually I am one of those players who runs Flex because my guild transferred servers, and I think it's tuned just fine. The guild that I run Flex with is 9/14, so they seem to be progressing OK even though I seem to be out-healing my replacement in my Flex/LFR gear. Then again maybe she's just slacking because it's Flex. I don't care about how hard heroic raids are, but I do think that it's a good business decision on Blizzard's part to start toning down their difficulty after the content has been out for over six months and is about to be made obsolete in six more. That's just because the people who were going to do it pre-nerf have already done so and the remainder have probably hit an insurmountable wall. Rather than have them quit and risk them not coming back it's better to just nerf. They'll be able to faceroll it in a matter of months anyway. Hopefully I've clarified my stance on that.
    Well thank you for taking your time to clarify and I apologize for misreading what you were saying. I don't mind nerfed raids after 6 months time at all or when a new tier rolls out. I just don't want the difficulty nerfed at the start or for a bit after....so that those guilds that like challenges can bash at it and feel accomplished after hard work.
    Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-10-31 at 08:49 PM.

  4. #564
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone - most wings are easier and quicker on Flex than in LFR - and it would be better for the game overall if in order to raid players got together with friends and guildmates and did a real raid rather than trudge through an LFR with 25 Internet strangers, many of whom are AFK and few of whom care to actually put any effort into it and instead just rely on stacks of Determination to beat bosses.

    LFR was a mistake. Everything that was changed about raids in Cataclysm was a mistake. I was a big supporter of LFR until 5.4, but Flex has been a reminder of what was lost when the Wrath 10 model was taken out of the game. The game would be better off today if the Wrath 10 model had survived into Cataclysm and LFR had never been added.

    EDIT: Reading some other comments has reminded me of another important point about the Wrath raiding model. Running heroics actually geared you up for at least 10-man raids. In Mists, the only way to gear up for Flex is to run LFR. This needs to be addressed in the next expansion.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-10-31 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Apologies if this has been adequately been answered previously.
    Why is repeatedly running LFR for gear better/more fun than repeatedly running 5 mans for gear?
    Raids are more fun than 5 man dungeons. With raids, they can do a lot more with the mechanics because they don't have to tune for the absence of multiple classes. That makes for more entertaining encounters in many people's opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone
    Try getting into a Flex group right now with a 496 iLevel. Most Flex groups advertised in chat or oQueue want at least 520, many want 535 or higher and that continues to creep up as the weeks go by. Without LFR, that wouldn't be doable by "anyone". There's a lot of "anyone"s out there who don't have a set schedule or friends who play WoW to carry them through Flex runs and the general population certainly isn't go to do it.
    I had a 530ish iLevel and a legendary cloak within a few hours of the patch going live as did most the people I did Flex runs with that week and since. But I have alts that are still working on their cloaks and started 5.4 with stuff from Heroics and Scenarios beefed up with timeless isle 496 gear that *I* wouldn't have taken on a flex run. They're both now at 540-ish iLevel without the cloak and have no problem getting Flex invites only because I was able to do LFR runs with them to gear them up. Being able to practice the fights in LFR with my alts before moving up was also quite helpful.
    Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 09:32 PM.

  6. #566
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    That's what LFR probably should be. And for anyone who has called it 'not raiding' that's really how they should think of it. And it doesn't need to be separated from 'real raids' either since it's 'not raiding'. Raids are rooms with things in it. So are dungeons.

    What's bullshit are people who on the one hand say it's not raiding and then turn around and say it's not this or that or you can ignore X or Y as if it suddenly is raiding. It's a separate thing entirely. I agree: it's not raiding. That doesn't mean it should be out of the game.
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  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    They didn't have raid bosses with this many mechanics either, maybe we should go back to the old 'Tank and spank after collecting fire resist gear from tank and spank bosses' mechanics. We didnt have transmog either, maybe we should go back to wearing what ever horrible piece of gear was the latest tier. We didn't have reforges, maybe we should go back to wearing a cloth belt on a paladin because its secondary stats were better for us. We didn't have server transfers, maybe we should go back to rerolling toons from scratch if our server dies. We should put dark portals every where because we had them when the game was successful, we should constantly only fight red skinned orcs because hey, it was big back then.

    If you don't like LFR then don't do it but don't bring this cockamamie hack logic here.

  8. #568
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    You could do flex... or normal. Not sure where this perception comes that you can't do real raiding without spending all day online. I do just fine.

    But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.

  9. #569
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone...
    Well, no. People that surpass the minimal requirements for LFR are not guaranteed a place in a flex raid. LFR gives everyone that has the patience a guaranteed opportunity at seeing whatever it is they're queued up for as long as they meet the requirements.

    I'm amazed that more people don't see the difference. Or more likely they do and just pretend as if it's the same thing. It's not.
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  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecwfrk View Post
    Raids are more fun than 5 man dungeons. With raids, they can do a lot more with the mechanics because they don't have to tune for the absence of multiple classes. That makes for more entertaining encounters in most people's opinion.
    Which is also why I am confused by people trashing on normal raids, say they are forced into LFR, and say how much superior 5man is.

    LFR, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.

    LFD, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.

    I understand some people prefer smaller groups the same way as some people prefer larger groups. What I don't get is why some people claim raids are unwanted and dungeons are better. Dungeons are essentially like "5man raids" and raids are essentially like "10/25man dungeons" to me. The 2 are pretty much the same thing inherently.
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  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

    People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    You could do flex... or normal. Not sure where this perception comes that you can't do real raiding without spending all day online. I do just fine.
    What's the /played time at level 90 for your main?

    But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.
    It's better than being screamed at by a nerdraging guild leader or some RL friend of his.

    I've been in numerous guilds that just fall apart. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than someone who may or may not have been a chick that the GL was trying to get to cyber with him or something. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than the GL's best RL friend. 've been raged at, insulted, kicked, berated, etc. for having the gall to put my family over what the guild wants (Sorry, but when my kid has a bad dream and calls for daddy, I don't tell her to wait until we finish this boss).

    I'm not some high school or college kid who knows or can easily find lots of people IRL who play games online. I know a total of 2 other people IRL who play WoW. I also don't have a regular schedule like a student would either and can't schedule a block of several hours, several times a week for raiding. So finding people to raid with isn't easy.

    Someone throwing a fit in LFR everyday is far less annoying than having to find a new guild and establishing myself within it every few months because I have a life outside of WoW.
    Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 10:02 PM.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    They didn't have raid bosses with this many mechanics either, maybe we should go back to the old 'Tank and spank after collecting fire resist gear from tank and spank bosses' mechanics. We didnt have transmog either, maybe we should go back to wearing what ever horrible piece of gear was the latest tier. We didn't have reforges, maybe we should go back to wearing a cloth belt on a paladin because its secondary stats were better for us. We didn't have server transfers, maybe we should go back to rerolling toons from scratch if our server dies. We should put dark portals every where because we had them when the game was successful, we should constantly only fight red skinned orcs because hey, it was big back then.

    If you don't like LFR then don't do it but don't bring this cockamamie hack logic here.
    It's not hack logic, you just don't seem to get it judging by your examples that don't compare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecwfrk View Post
    How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

    People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.
    Flex/normal/heroic raids. If you can't manage flex at the least, you don't have room to whine about not seeing content, it becomes a personal problem at that point. Noone is keeping you out of a raid. If the game were as important to you guys as you make it sound, you'd make time.
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  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecwfrk View Post
    How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

    People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.
    LFR was not created to give people access for $15 a month, LFR was created to give casuals something to consume so they could spend 100% of the end game resources on Raid content. $15 dollars a month means nothing as PVPers who don't do raid content still don't get raid rewards. By pushing all the post-leveling resources into raiding, spitting up an easy sloppy seconds LFR they can keep the resource focus entirely on raid content. To make any other content to give casuals something to consume would pull drastically from the Raid resources.

    If you hate raiding then I can understand trying to take out LFR. If you like casuals getting dungeons all the time I can understand taking out LFR. If you love Raiding you should be saluting LFR'ers for keeping you neck deep in Raid content.

    None of this crap about not needing them in the past and it was still good, you didn't get as good of raids as often as you are getting them now because LFR exists to justify spending every bit of post-leveling resources on Raid content. 46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
    They don't want us playing at all, just farming mats to give to them, and of course paying or subs so they get their new raids. A month strike by casuals would be frightening - a months strike by hardcore pains would be a yawn - who in game would even notice?
    Sorry what? The people who claim to be casual play more than the supposed hardcore players. So if the people who were truly "hardcore" players which to me indicates time played, stopped playing it would hurt the game more than the real casual players.

    So yes please go back to farming mats for the 40 hours a week you put into the game that you're claiming you can't raid. That is what most of the people who are dedicated to LFR play.

    LFR is not about casual vs hardcore it's about decent/good vs awful players. If you can't pull more than 60-80k dps in SoO with the required ilvl, you're not casual you're bad.

  15. #575
    46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing
    Churning out isn't the same thing as quality though.

  16. #576
    I would suggest very long dungeons that appeal to the eyes. BRD and Stratholme are good examples. If someone doesn't have the time, motivation to research proper rotations, or a mix of both, they should accept that they cannot do everything the game has to offer. When I played BC I didn't even do endgame, and in wrath I didn't even get to raid ICC beyond the first few bosses. However, I accepted that and wasn't even the slightest bit bitter. The game should be about options and the type of content you CHOOSE to focus on to strengthen your character. You should only "need" to focus on what your schedule and motivation allows.

    I would also add back in progression raiding, where every single raid has relevance for the course of the entire expansion. The item level jump between raids does *NOT* have to be that big. People would still crave "the best". They could also do something savvy like making the final boss drop gear that has a higher ilvl than the rest, making the entire raid relevant simply for that reason. This would make it significantly easier for people to get into raiding (Since weaker geared people could join in at any point in the expansion).

  17. #577
    Raiders can be casuals too and have been for years. So the question would be what long lasting endgame does one propose for non-raiders. There have already been options and it comes down to slowing the gearing pace down to that of raiding which some "casuals" dont want. The other factor is that there are players who spend as much or more time in the game than progression oriented raiders and as such do not fit well with the more casual oriented non-raid content. The casual umbrella and those who associate with it are such a wide variety that one non-raid solution might not fit them all just as one raid solution(LFR) did not fit them all. You got the casuals who spend a few hours a week in the game who are ether soloists or varied play and then you got the 40 hours a week non-raider who pigeon hole themselves in a select amount of content.

    Personal the no-lifer claiming casual status can go suck a fuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    LFR was not created to give people access for $15 a month, LFR was created to give casuals something to consume so they could spend 100% of the end game resources on Raid content. $15 dollars a month means nothing as PVPers who don't do raid content still don't get raid rewards. By pushing all the post-leveling resources into raiding, spitting up an easy sloppy seconds LFR they can keep the resource focus entirely on raid content. To make any other content to give casuals something to consume would pull drastically from the Raid resources.
    I think the only cross between the dungeons and raid team, and other end game content is largely the art team and otherwise for endgame there is the questing team which is also in charge of scenarios and then there is the dungeon and raid team. LFR allowed the developers to pull resources away from dungeons and throw it all into raids with the quests and scenarios largely untouched. The PVP team is also a separate team and they have been pushing out new stuff. PVPers shouldnt feel compelled to raid in order to enjoy PVP just as raiders should not feel the need to PVP to raid.

    As it stands as long as "casuals" or those who falsely believe they represent all of them tell Blizzard to keep it up with LFR then the developers will do such. If players really put up a shit fest and asked for more dungeons and refused to run LFR then there would have been a possibility for resources to shift back to dungeons and even the LFR level rewards being brought back down to the non-raid content which LFR gobbled up in order to maintain its popularity over non-raid content. If you have a problem with LFR changing resource development spread then you need to stop backing LFR and start backing for alternatives that rival it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Well, no. People that surpass the minimal requirements for LFR are not guaranteed a place in a flex raid. LFR gives everyone that has the patience a guaranteed opportunity at seeing whatever it is they're queued up for as long as they meet the requirements.
    And if your group dissolves, does that still make it guaranteed? As you described it is no more guaranteed of seeing the content than running into the instance yourself.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-10-31 at 10:17 PM.

  18. #578
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    LFR needs to go away, and Flex needs to take its place IMO.

    LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play. It doesn't help people become better players at the game or their class. It doesn't prepare players for any content of a difficulty beyond LFR (heavy hand holding) because it doesn't punish players for doing things badly. It doesn't promote any sense of community or pride in what you are doing or accomplishing. Their is no longer any sense of a JOURNEY to the game. LFR is only good as a psuedo pre-raid gearing mechanism, but that can be done in healthier ways (5-mans, scenarios, valor/justice vendors).

    Flex raiding is what LFR should have been, it helps promote all the things LFR doesn't and works to improve communication, teamwork, and trust between players, even if they are all people you have never seen before. If "casual" players can't be bothered to put forth enough effort to join and positively participate in a pug flex mode raid to kill content and get gear then id say they shouldn't really expect to be handed or experience much of any "end game".

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  19. #579
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    LFR is wonderful. What is there to hate about it? It does not ever effect raid groups' progress or gameplay. You don't lose your super-duper achievements because now i am able to enter dungeons and raids, too with people who want quick action instead of waiting hours. Was spamming the chat channels for that last guy to fill the spot any better? Why is there so much hatred for it by some people?

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post

    Flex/normal/heroic raids. If you can't manage flex at the least, you don't have room to whine about not seeing content, it becomes a personal problem at that point. Noone is keeping you out of a raid. If the game were as important to you guys as you make it sound, you'd make time.
    So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
    Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?

    Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
    You're the kind of person who says things like "Hey, I don't care if you have to defend some guy in court, do heart surgery, or be with your wife because she's in labor. Blow them off and farm mats so we have enough pots for this weeks runs or we're giving your spot to someone else."

    LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play.
    The lack of LFR breeds elitism. It promotes players enacting whatever barriers they can to prevent players from achieving what they have to preserve their feeling of superiority.
    Worse, seeing "LFM SoO Flex. 535 iLevel Minimum or don't waste our time" without LFR breeds lots of "Dear sir/madam for thankness of all our customer susanexpress offer lowest price soo run get gears now only $12.43 loowest price congratulations!" spam. When all most players can get is a few pieces of 496 from Timeless Isle without a lot of gold farming or paying someone to carry them through raids there's no reason for them to ever think critically about the boss fight or their own play because they'll never have the gear for it to become relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    LFR is wonderful. What is there to hate about it?
    There's plenty to hate about it. Not liking it is completely valid. If you have a good guild guild filled with good players, going into LFR can be absolutely maddening. For instance, you'll never see someone in a guild group pull 5 seconds after a mass rez and then hearth just to be a jerk. And that's just the very tip of the iceburg.
    But many, many people do like it despite, or even because of, the things other people hate about it.

    However, I've yet to see even one valid reason for it to be removed despite thousands of posts from people saying it should be. I see lots of lame theories about how it prevent people from wanting to be better and other complete BS. That argument always boils down to "WoW is my only source of self esteem and being one of the few to see the most iconic content in the game is all that has kept me from conducting a ballistic taste test over the past 9 years"
    Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 10:50 PM.

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