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That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-10-31 at 08:49 PM.
FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone - most wings are easier and quicker on Flex than in LFR - and it would be better for the game overall if in order to raid players got together with friends and guildmates and did a real raid rather than trudge through an LFR with 25 Internet strangers, many of whom are AFK and few of whom care to actually put any effort into it and instead just rely on stacks of Determination to beat bosses.
LFR was a mistake. Everything that was changed about raids in Cataclysm was a mistake. I was a big supporter of LFR until 5.4, but Flex has been a reminder of what was lost when the Wrath 10 model was taken out of the game. The game would be better off today if the Wrath 10 model had survived into Cataclysm and LFR had never been added.
EDIT: Reading some other comments has reminded me of another important point about the Wrath raiding model. Running heroics actually geared you up for at least 10-man raids. In Mists, the only way to gear up for Flex is to run LFR. This needs to be addressed in the next expansion.
Last edited by hablix; 2013-10-31 at 09:06 PM.
I had a 530ish iLevel and a legendary cloak within a few hours of the patch going live as did most the people I did Flex runs with that week and since. But I have alts that are still working on their cloaks and started 5.4 with stuff from Heroics and Scenarios beefed up with timeless isle 496 gear that *I* wouldn't have taken on a flex run. They're both now at 540-ish iLevel without the cloak and have no problem getting Flex invites only because I was able to do LFR runs with them to gear them up. Being able to practice the fights in LFR with my alts before moving up was also quite helpful.
Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 09:32 PM.
What's bullshit are people who on the one hand say it's not raiding and then turn around and say it's not this or that or you can ignore X or Y as if it suddenly is raiding. It's a separate thing entirely. I agree: it's not raiding. That doesn't mean it should be out of the game.
If you don't like LFR then don't do it but don't bring this cockamamie hack logic here.
You could do flex... or normal. Not sure where this perception comes that you can't do real raiding without spending all day online. I do just fine.
But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.
I'm amazed that more people don't see the difference. Or more likely they do and just pretend as if it's the same thing. It's not.
LFR, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.
LFD, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.
I understand some people prefer smaller groups the same way as some people prefer larger groups. What I don't get is why some people claim raids are unwanted and dungeons are better. Dungeons are essentially like "5man raids" and raids are essentially like "10/25man dungeons" to me. The 2 are pretty much the same thing inherently.
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People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.
It's better than being screamed at by a nerdraging guild leader or some RL friend of his.But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.
I've been in numerous guilds that just fall apart. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than someone who may or may not have been a chick that the GL was trying to get to cyber with him or something. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than the GL's best RL friend. 've been raged at, insulted, kicked, berated, etc. for having the gall to put my family over what the guild wants (Sorry, but when my kid has a bad dream and calls for daddy, I don't tell her to wait until we finish this boss).
I'm not some high school or college kid who knows or can easily find lots of people IRL who play games online. I know a total of 2 other people IRL who play WoW. I also don't have a regular schedule like a student would either and can't schedule a block of several hours, several times a week for raiding. So finding people to raid with isn't easy.
Someone throwing a fit in LFR everyday is far less annoying than having to find a new guild and establishing myself within it every few months because I have a life outside of WoW.
Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 10:02 PM.
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If you hate raiding then I can understand trying to take out LFR. If you like casuals getting dungeons all the time I can understand taking out LFR. If you love Raiding you should be saluting LFR'ers for keeping you neck deep in Raid content.
None of this crap about not needing them in the past and it was still good, you didn't get as good of raids as often as you are getting them now because LFR exists to justify spending every bit of post-leveling resources on Raid content. 46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing.
So yes please go back to farming mats for the 40 hours a week you put into the game that you're claiming you can't raid. That is what most of the people who are dedicated to LFR play.
LFR is not about casual vs hardcore it's about decent/good vs awful players. If you can't pull more than 60-80k dps in SoO with the required ilvl, you're not casual you're bad.
Churning out isn't the same thing as quality though.46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing
I would suggest very long dungeons that appeal to the eyes. BRD and Stratholme are good examples. If someone doesn't have the time, motivation to research proper rotations, or a mix of both, they should accept that they cannot do everything the game has to offer. When I played BC I didn't even do endgame, and in wrath I didn't even get to raid ICC beyond the first few bosses. However, I accepted that and wasn't even the slightest bit bitter. The game should be about options and the type of content you CHOOSE to focus on to strengthen your character. You should only "need" to focus on what your schedule and motivation allows.
I would also add back in progression raiding, where every single raid has relevance for the course of the entire expansion. The item level jump between raids does *NOT* have to be that big. People would still crave "the best". They could also do something savvy like making the final boss drop gear that has a higher ilvl than the rest, making the entire raid relevant simply for that reason. This would make it significantly easier for people to get into raiding (Since weaker geared people could join in at any point in the expansion).
Raiders can be casuals too and have been for years. So the question would be what long lasting endgame does one propose for non-raiders. There have already been options and it comes down to slowing the gearing pace down to that of raiding which some "casuals" dont want. The other factor is that there are players who spend as much or more time in the game than progression oriented raiders and as such do not fit well with the more casual oriented non-raid content. The casual umbrella and those who associate with it are such a wide variety that one non-raid solution might not fit them all just as one raid solution(LFR) did not fit them all. You got the casuals who spend a few hours a week in the game who are ether soloists or varied play and then you got the 40 hours a week non-raider who pigeon hole themselves in a select amount of content.
Personal the no-lifer claiming casual status can go suck a fuck.
As it stands as long as "casuals" or those who falsely believe they represent all of them tell Blizzard to keep it up with LFR then the developers will do such. If players really put up a shit fest and asked for more dungeons and refused to run LFR then there would have been a possibility for resources to shift back to dungeons and even the LFR level rewards being brought back down to the non-raid content which LFR gobbled up in order to maintain its popularity over non-raid content. If you have a problem with LFR changing resource development spread then you need to stop backing LFR and start backing for alternatives that rival it.
Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-10-31 at 10:17 PM.
LFR needs to go away, and Flex needs to take its place IMO.
LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play. It doesn't help people become better players at the game or their class. It doesn't prepare players for any content of a difficulty beyond LFR (heavy hand holding) because it doesn't punish players for doing things badly. It doesn't promote any sense of community or pride in what you are doing or accomplishing. Their is no longer any sense of a JOURNEY to the game. LFR is only good as a psuedo pre-raid gearing mechanism, but that can be done in healthier ways (5-mans, scenarios, valor/justice vendors).
Flex raiding is what LFR should have been, it helps promote all the things LFR doesn't and works to improve communication, teamwork, and trust between players, even if they are all people you have never seen before. If "casual" players can't be bothered to put forth enough effort to join and positively participate in a pug flex mode raid to kill content and get gear then id say they shouldn't really expect to be handed or experience much of any "end game".
Warlock | Monk | Warrior"Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is."--Littlefinger
LFR is wonderful. What is there to hate about it? It does not ever effect raid groups' progress or gameplay. You don't lose your super-duper achievements because now i am able to enter dungeons and raids, too with people who want quick action instead of waiting hours. Was spamming the chat channels for that last guy to fill the spot any better? Why is there so much hatred for it by some people?
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?
Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like "Hey, I don't care if you have to defend some guy in court, do heart surgery, or be with your wife because she's in labor. Blow them off and farm mats so we have enough pots for this weeks runs or we're giving your spot to someone else."
The lack of LFR breeds elitism. It promotes players enacting whatever barriers they can to prevent players from achieving what they have to preserve their feeling of superiority.LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play.
Worse, seeing "LFM SoO Flex. 535 iLevel Minimum or don't waste our time" without LFR breeds lots of "Dear sir/madam for thankness of all our customer susanexpress offer lowest price soo run get gears now only $12.43 loowest price congratulations!" spam. When all most players can get is a few pieces of 496 from Timeless Isle without a lot of gold farming or paying someone to carry them through raids there's no reason for them to ever think critically about the boss fight or their own play because they'll never have the gear for it to become relevant.
But many, many people do like it despite, or even because of, the things other people hate about it.
However, I've yet to see even one valid reason for it to be removed despite thousands of posts from people saying it should be. I see lots of lame theories about how it prevent people from wanting to be better and other complete BS. That argument always boils down to "WoW is my only source of self esteem and being one of the few to see the most iconic content in the game is all that has kept me from conducting a ballistic taste test over the past 9 years"
Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 10:50 PM.