Honestly, Ahead of the Curve needed for Flex?

[cheero]

I got an idea. If it is sooo offensive that someone asks for an achieve in order to join then raid then do no join it. Obviously there are more than enough people that enjoy the fast easy runs to make such raids. How can anyone deem this as "bad" behavior? Is it because they are stuck in less than optimal groups or feel excluded? If you open up Oqueue on a tuesday afternoon there is literally dozens of flex groups to choose from. If one does not suit you....then make your own.

[Migraine]

This sort of attitude needs to stop being peddled around. Thinking like this only empowers this kind of behavior.

Firstly what behaviour are we empowering, the freedom to set group requirements as one sees fit? If you object to someone setting a run with requirements that are above what you feel is an appropriate level then you are free not to join that group. It is a basic supply and demand issue if there is not enough players with the right ilvl willing to join these runs then the raid leader will lower their requirements.

I understand that there are people out there with ilvls more in tune with what flex was intended for that are frustrated by being excluded from these runs, I also understand that there is the fear of being left behind as more and more people get a higher ilvl so more and more flex runs become 'LFM have 5xx ilvl'. The solution that I could say to a lot of people is create your own run and set your own requirements (many many people have suggested this) the problem with this is not everyone is cut out to form and lead a raid and this is where I return to the freedom of the raid leader to set their own requirements; it is their time investment and therefore should be their choice with whom they raid with.

I am in the fortunate position that I do not need to run flex and if I did I would be able to get into most groups, I often laugh to myself while reading trade at the requirements people set for all types of content but I really don't think that anyone has the right to dictate to a raid leader who they have to invite. I admire you for the fact that you are prepared to take undergeared people on your runs and let them prove themselves but you have to accept that some people don't see flex as progress they simply see it as another avenue to filling gear slots quickly and thus want to ensure that they spend the least amount of time in there. Please don't see my last sentence as an attack on flex or any other mode I am a casual heroic raider and I think that LFR/Flex are a good thing.

As a final question what other limits do you feel should be put on people choosing who they invite to their group.

[artem123]

all the gear is 540 so asking for anyone with ilvl higher than or equal to that is silly all the raid leader wants is for his alt to be carried for gear.

Flex is mostly about mechanics
ahead of the curve proves said player knows mechanics
who cares?

[Deleted]

It is dumb. Flex was meant for more casual groups or for groups that didn't/couldn't sit people. Like anything though, you get people that see Flex and go "Ah ha! Another chance at that tier/trinket/weapon that eludes me in Normal and Heroic!" and these are the people who expect 14/14 folks to join, or expect zero wipes, or demand that it be X many players only (I have actually seen this on OpenRaid; people saying in comments "Will only come if 15 or less people; more than 2 wipes and I drop.") because it doesn't share a lockout with Normal. Talk about entitlement!

The solution is to ignore these people; they aren't the kind of player you want to associate with.

It's not dumb. They just happen to play on a bigger server than yours with a much wider selection of raiders.

I can get a full group of 550+ geared people, probably even 560+ without any problem at all during peak hours.

It's simple really, if you can pick a 540 in front of a 520 if all you want is a trinket you won't get in normal/heroic, then why wouldn't you try to find people looking for the same thing as you? If you wanted Flex progression, you'd join a Flex guild or no guild at all.

People like you are the ones with the bad attitude. You shouldn't look down on people wanting others with similar experience. It's only natural and I think that you know that too if you think about it for at least a second.

[Glorious Leader]

Folks want to be carried. Not much to see here, really.

If you make your own group, you're sure to get responses.

In other words We want people with experience but aren't willing to give anyone experience. Pretty shitty trap.

Anyone remember the name of the mod to fake the achieve again? Underachiever? I wonder if it's still around.

[Deleted]

In other words We want people with experience but aren't willing to give anyone experience. Pretty shitty trap.

Anyone remember the name of the mod to fake the achieve again? Underachiever? I wonder if it's still around.

Thats the one. When we were PuGging, it was my job to check armory. We got sick of people who used that mod and happily wiped to every fucking mechanic there was.
So please people, you might want to check armory as well as it gives a good idea about who you're dealing with..

[clevin]

...There's also more groupthink going on. (ie: 14 man flex groups)

And THAT is really the issue. Asking for things not because the RL has thought it through but 'the heroic guilds on my server do this so I'll do it too.'

I don't mind people asking for whatever but they damn well better meet those criteria themselves.

[Nobleshield]

Thats the one. When we were PuGging, it was my job to check armory. We got sick of people who used that mod and happily wiped to every fucking mechanic there was.
So please people, you might want to check armory as well as it gives a good idea about who you're dealing with..

The irony here is that mod came about because people were asking for ridiculous requirements and defending it under the guise of "My raid, my rules".

[Glorious Leader]

The irony here is that mod came about because people were asking for ridiculous requirements and defending it under the guise of "My raid, my rules".

LOL. Round and round it goes. Where it stops NOBODY KNOWS.

[Deleted]

The irony here is that mod came about because people were asking for ridiculous requirements and defending it under the guise of "My raid, my rules".

It occurs to me that the reason for people, who still need the achievement/clear/whatevs (and complain about it), aren't creating their own groups for a reason.
No easy way out if the group is bad?
A slow clear due to the low requirements attracting terrible people?

[Deleted]

I don't mind people asking for whatever but they damn well better meet those criteria themselves.

i share this opinion really, i had cleared parts 1 2 and 3 the other day with a group and performed well throughout topping damage on some fights, i then had to step out as i haven't killed Garrosh on normal yet, only to find out the leader had less progress than me! :< just annoyed me a little

[Nobleshield]

It occurs to me that the reason for people, who still need the achievement/clear/whatevs (and complain about it), aren't creating their own groups for a reason.
No easy way out if the group is bad?
A slow clear due to the low requirements attracting terrible people?

I think it just boils down to it being more likely that a raider in a progression guild is going to know more about leadership and fights to be confident enough to form their own group (and also more likely to impose these crazy restrictions due to not wanting to bother with helping others learn). Starting a raid group when you aren't that confident in your leadership qualities is a pretty daunting task, especially with the general selfishness and impatience exhibited by a lot of the community. God forbid the leader make a mistake in a brief kill order list, or use a tactic that is unorthodox.

[Orcindauh]

Thats the one. When we were PuGging, it was my job to check armory. We got sick of people who used that mod and happily wiped to every fucking mechanic there was.
So please people, you might want to check armory as well as it gives a good idea about who you're dealing with..

Armoring for a flex pug? Nah, way too much work, they can have the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather invite a few extra dps so I can kick a few if I notice they have no clue what they're doing. One of the joys of flex.

In my experience, the only time where we might ask for some sort of achievement is flex 4 because lots of people still have trouble on Garrosh for some reason and we don't feel like explaining everything or anything for that matter. We just want a quick easy 1-shot kill at some boas.

Of course we try to give every pug a chance at all wings of flex but if they just don't get it, they have to go. This is an alt run/ battle pet run/ boa run, not a progression run. Don't really have the patience to explain fights to them.

[melodramocracy]

i share this opinion really, i had cleared parts 1 2 and 3 the other day with a group and performed well throughout topping damage on some fights, i then had to step out as i haven't killed Garrosh on normal yet, only to find out the leader had less progress than me! :< just annoyed me a little

Well, then the excuse is that he doesn't need to meet his own requirements because he went to the trouble of gathering the group.

Lulz.

[Deleted]

That mod came to be because people wanted to be carried, and lied to do so. We might as well justify fish, honor farm, AH, archeology, mining and herbalism bots, because the time to do that is too high. If you can fill a raid with 550 people in minutes, the requirement is not ridiculous at all. Why would people be expected to whiteknight a pug for 2-3 hours each week? There are guilds for a reason, good Lord... Socials and family are more than welcome to get into flex in them without any requirement. In other guilds people with similar expectations progress together in flex without begging the kindness of strangers. That's how a mmo does things. You group with strangers and have a nice time farming mobs, easy instances and scenarios, but if you want to do something that takes hours and can wipe you over and over... you learn with your guild.

[eschatological]

I'm in a regular flex group with a 536 ilvl (WITH the legendary cloak at 608, and a 554 weapon), and I regular am top DPS in a group with 545-555 people, and it's mainly because I'm a semi-retired heroic progression raider. But when I joined this flex, I had a 526 ilevel, and I had to convince them to let me in, and they were *right* to question me, because except in very specific circumstances (IE mine, got in a car accident, had to quit not only heroic raiding but WoW in general for a period of time), a dedicated raider would have been able to do better than that, gear-wise. Now that I've proven myself in the group, I'm a sure-fire invite, but getting into a regular group was tough to begin with.

Accentuate your good points, openraid lets you leave comments on your sign up, and on the raid page in general, use them. I did, and I got one raid leader to listen.

[The Kao]

This sort of attitude needs to stop being peddled around. Thinking like this only empowers this kind of behavior.

Takes me back to the times when this was the only way to build a successful group. Those happy days.

[Deleted]

I think it just boils down to it being more likely that a raider in a progression guild is going to know more about leadership and fights to be confident enough to form their own group (and also more likely to impose these crazy restrictions due to not wanting to bother with helping others learn). Starting a raid group when you aren't that confident in your leadership qualities is a pretty daunting task, especially with the general selfishness and impatience exhibited by a lot of the community. God forbid the leader make a mistake in a brief kill order list, or use a tactic that is unorthodox.

But I can't imagine this being the case for all of these "good raider, but casual" that you find complaining about this exact issue on these forums.

When I myself have refused to make a group it's because:
I don't really want to bother with it, I don't want it thaaat much either. Like homework in fact. I'll do flex/homework it if it fits with my day well (when someone is looking for people for a flex raid and I feel like joining) or when it is absolutely needed (for gearing up main / before homework needs to be delivered).

[Floopa]

I'm in a regular flex group with a 536 ilvl (WITH the legendary cloak at 608, and a 554 weapon), and I regular am top DPS in a group with 545-555 people, and it's mainly because I'm a semi-retired heroic progression raider.

Or because you play a warlock. If people care, there are plenty of folks in high end progression guilds who run 25 people flex raids every day of the week. Most stream them too. Add my battletag (Nymzee#2910) if you want a 14/14 flex run every wednesday. I don't really care who joins.

[Mirri]

550 is fair now. My druid alt that hasn't set foot in normals or heroics has 556 ilvl.

How do you get 556 without normal mode gear? Winning the world boss lottery ?