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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    This rudely put point is what annoys me. I want to be able to play the game that I love to play, that I have played since 2005 when I am ABLE to play.
    But it's a valid point. You can play the game still and do stuff. Can you do everything and have everything without investing time into a raiding schedule? No. It's how mmos work. 8 years later and you still haven't realized that. It's common sense. It sucks, but it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balazzar View Post
    I know its anecdotal, but the people who try to champion "casual friendly content" the most are seemingly online 5-7 hours per day, every day.. There are normal raiders who, after dinging 90 and doing initial gearing, play 5-7 hours a week progressing on normals...

    I think for the most part its people who really love playing WoW, but just do not love the content that WoW is based on: PvP with other players, PvE with other players. That is fine and all, but these peeps should realize that there are many alternative games that would make them happy, many of which do not have monthly sub fees.
    Exactly. This game isn't for their preferred play-style. There are other games they can play. If they make it so u can get everything easy and when you want. Then what would be the point in raiding and the game would fall apart. Yeah it sucks that this game relies on playing with others (cause hell I even wish I could do my shit by myself and get awesome stuff) but it's an mmo. It's how it works and like bal said. If u don't understand that. Then play a single player game or something that isn't an mmo
    Last edited by Ishamaelronin; 2013-11-02 at 03:18 PM.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    So, care to give any examples of those games? I'll just give you one condition: The game must not rely on any form of matchmaking algorithm, because any of those does one thing: It matches schedules of different people, who do not know eachother.
    Well, there's the entire FPS genre, the fighting game genre, MOBAs, the RTS genre, Diablo-likes, and WoW's PvP game.

    However, that kind of makes MMORPG PvE content the unique snowflake among most multiplayer games. I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with that, and people whining about it comes off like people complaining about something like the Demon's Souls or Dark Souls games being too hard.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    play it the same way you did in 2005 or be content with only playing a small part of it, there's no point in "Redefining a genre" just because you have more responsibilities now but your time management skills haven't caught up.
    This. I really think the aging fanbase needs to realize that Blizz is doing all it can to accomodate the fact its demographic is nearing their late-twenties/early-thirties. What the hell can Blizz do to make someone who raided like mad in 2005 feel at home when, in 2013, they now have two kids or a fulltime job and kids? They cannot. People have to see this. You change a LOT in eight years.

  4. #384
    the problem is following: the game went from "few, very motivated people play it all day as a fulltime job" to "many people want to play it as a hobby, just play around"

    i think raids and difficult group content have a place in that game still. there are still many folks around investing much time into the game. (classical target locations are raids, heroic raids, heroic scenario maybe, challenge mode dungeons)

    the second group is the casuals, which make most players now, but with far less "time played per day". they want solo/pair content, which is somehow fun, amusing, not tooo hard, and storylike. something to get your time round with. (classical target locations are: daily quests, things like the timeless isle, maybe heroic dungeons (but not more than a few per day) and scenarios and heroic scenarios.)

    the problem is the iteration within these groups, but i dont see why there HAS to be and iteration from one group into the other. let raiders raid and get their ultrarare gear and let other people run things like timeless isle. the only important thing is: the casual content has to be fun without endgame raid gear, which automatically leads to "its boring for raiders"

    so blizzard decided to not make a to large canyon in gearing between those two contents, thats why raiders dont get that better gear anymore like back in times.


    one thing i observed at myself was, that i kind of like "startrek online" very much, because you can do things alone OR in a group, you can raid, or not but youll never loose to much connection with other players, cause while equip is still important, its really about skill more and "when to use your buffs" then to use them asap.

    i think "gear" has become TOOOOOOOOO important in wow, skill isnt needed as soon as you somehow got to some decent 500ilvl. in sto you can be geared max with much investment, but you can still really suck at the game, when you donno what you do within yout tacship.


    what i personally dislike most in wow now is, that sucess is 90% about gear, and 99% of that 90% about the weapon you are having. (beein a retpaladin player of course) you can play aas correct as you want, until you dont have a wepon over 463ilvl your char will defenitely suck at the isle, cause the dps is TOOOO low, thus bringing you into much more trouble (causem obs live long enough to do heavy dmg twince instead of once)

    wow is somehow getting to ... un-chilling. its somehow more like beeing at work, than "logging in just having a fun hours or two" cause you cant have FUN without proper gear anymore.


    that all went wrong with the balancing and the surroundings these balances keep happening. things like the timeless isle somehow hit very hard on "weaknesses of certain classes or even playstile concepts" (for example "melees" on the isle) then the outcry starts because in those very very "unforgiving" contents you really have more frustration than fun with your class, couse every minor fail leads into death. thats not how "challenging" should be defined. tI defined challenging as. make one mistake and die, play range or tank to reduce danger and fight minutes with mobs. - that is just not fun.


    i like the isle for the part of equip giveaway, but i really dont enjoy it playing it. it was do "demanding" (as i said, make one mistake and ultimately unevitable die)as solocontent for an evening after work. esp some rares i dont touch anymore because they raise more repaircosts that they are worth (alsways talking as a melee-only player. my holypaladin never dies on that isle btw, not because a healer, but because he is capable of RANGE ...)



    i think in the future expensions blizzard must re-thing the class-roles and playstiles, melee, meleetank, range, rangecaster, healer, in order to make content, that doesnt "fuck" certain playstiles much heavier than others.

    lets say that: for the fact that melees got fucked this hard on the isle, taking that much more damage, they must either have all -50% dmg inc (as for beeing melee and not ranged) or must have 30-50% more live than corresponding healers and ranged classes. since all classes now are somehow same in lifepool and armor and dmg reduce, noone should take more or less dmg. - i think idea is stupid, and that resulted solely from pvp complaints. (that all classes now have same lifepool at same ilvl)

    i think melees should generally a) take less damage than ranged as a modifier or b) have more live than ranged and casters. why? because they are in a constant damagezone while casters/ranged are not or posses pets to counter that. while tanks should have the possibility to acrtively reduce dmg further (so give all melees a 30% reduced dmg modifier, and tanks get more "active" mitigation as "beeing tank")


    i think that is most needed for the game. rethink classes within! the content. its worth nothing if a class is balanced in numbers, but then gets fucked by the content that heavily favors ranged and "i have a tank pet" classes.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Willias View Post
    Well, there's the entire FPS genre, the fighting game genre, MOBAs, the RTS genre, Diablo-likes, and WoW's PvP game.
    If at all, the only game which you can "leave at will" is of the diablo likes. Every other of those has a endpoint, which you cannot decide on [namely the length of the game, which is random]. So unless you want to ruin the game for others, you cannot leave at will. I'm quite confident that I required the game to be fun to more than one party involved.

    Also, all of the game types you listed rely heavily on matchmaking system.

  6. #386
    Mechagnome Saeran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishamaelronin View Post
    But it's a valid point. You can play the game. Can you do everything and have everything without investing time into a raiding schedule? No. 8 years later and you still haven't realized that. It's common sense.
    I think you miss my point here. I have no issue with not getting the latest progression. I can't put the time in because of having a young family. Even with the amount of limited time I still have managed to get the best equipped hunter in my guild. The point that annoys me is people stating that I should just stop playing the game that I have invested so much time into, that I love to play still after all this time, just because I can't play the hours that someone who has no real-life commitments that prevents me from playing the game how i would LIKE to be able to play if it was possible. But it is not. The asinine comment that someone made about my 'time-management' obviously doesn't live the same life as others. Try 'time-management' when you have young children. It really is not that possible.

    People who complain about 'casuals' need to also remember that a huge subscription base in WoW is formed by these type of players nowadays. Take these away by telling them they should 'go play another game' would influence the income and hence the future of WoW.

    I don't give a shit about not always seeing the latest content, but please don't tell me what game I want to play.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Nonsense. The vast majority of multiplayer games you can pick up and play and then leave at will without any major hassle. Raiding is one of the rare ones that typically demands 2-4 hour sessions with minimal breaks.
    And that's why MMO's are different than most multiplayer games.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  8. #388
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    Challenging time investment game play cannot be successfully balanced against the "needs" of the casual player to have content handed to them with little or no effort.

    "Raiding is too HARD" = Blizzard offers LFR and content so easy the slowest click player in the universe can complete it.

    "LFR is not a challenge"= Blizzard includes SOME of the mechanics involved in real raiding yet balances it with including a reward for failure (determination buff).

    "I don't have time for an organized raid group" and "there is nobody that raids on my server and I am cheep" = Blizzard offers Flex and the ability to do CURRENT CONTENT cross server.

    At every turn casual players complain that the game does not cater to them yet when blizzard basically bends over backwards to feed their entitlement they just continue to make complaints based on how the game is not adapted to their individual whim.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  9. #389
    Well TBH... if you think that:
    -Raiding is boring
    -LFR isnt fun at all
    -PvP is frustrating
    -Questing is stupid
    -Leveling takes too long
    -Doing Proving Grounds or Brawler Guild sucks because it doesn't improve your character
    -AND Outdoor Content like Timeless isle is irrelevant content

    ... then you should just stop playing MMOs because i dont know what else a MMO should offer.

    I really hope blizzard will get it some day that it is better to drop 2-3mio subscribers and make the game more appealing to the people who actually do the content that is offered instead of just standing around, hoping that they get loot from doing nothing...
    Last edited by Liebchen; 2013-11-02 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #390
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    I can't play the hours that someone who has no real-life commitments that prevents me from playing the game how i would LIKE to be able to play if it was possible. But it is not
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    Try 'time-management' when you have young children. It really is not that possible.


    That's a weak argument, You just can't manage the time, I personally know a guy who works as an OR Tech, has a wife and 3 kids (All Toddlers), and took Courses in College, and yet still found the time to Raid Heroics, why? Because he knew how to manage his time. Obligatory "Inb4 Bad Worker/husband/dad/student" comment, just because you raid, doesn't automatically mean every other aspect of your life suffers. H Raiding =/= Putting in Method/Blood Legion Race for World First Hours.
    Last edited by Wildberry; 2013-11-02 at 03:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    Even bleeding subs at this rate they still have quite a few more quarters yet before they are down to the 1mil mark (which is still a success by mmo standards)
    You are not really looking at the big picture by saying that. If Wow does go to one million, it's a complete and utter disaster for them and they would be in trouble. Their infrastructure is far too big (as a result of the game being a huge success at one point and still to this day albeit less so) to be able to offer the same kind of game and support for 1 million subs and there were be people laid off, divisions closed etc and this would be very bad indeed for all concerned.

    Then again, they will not allow the game to drop to anywhere near 1 millions subs. It's blizzard we're talking about, high standards, quality products. They lost their way - in my humble - in the last 2 years with Wow and DIII being shockingly bad, but they will bounce back and have a buffer up their sleeves with Hearthstone.

    Oh and this Blizzcon will be something special and Exp V will be the magnet of all dead subscriptions to go back into Azeroth. Not all, but a lot. Perhaps.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by topcatti View Post
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    There are several reasons.

    First, let's establish that casual does not equate to 'bad', but a different intensity on how you approach gaming in general.

    Now, let us remember this isn't sold and marketed as a raiding only game.

    Some casuals do raid normal and/or heroic. Some don't care to do so. Some can't commit to a strict raiding schedule. You'll find there are nearly as many reasons as there are people.

    Let us also establish that raiding normal and/or heroic is more than a few hours commitment (on a tight schedule) a few times a week. If you are to raid in that environment, you are also expected to commit much more of your time in the preparation. So, let us say you have the 3 hours 3x a week schedule. Well, you need to be logged in 30+ minutes before a raid, and possibly have the run go 30+ minutes after. Now, for most people, on those 3 nights; they are going to spend all their free time just being on time and possibly staying late for the raid. 4 hours is a large commitment (think about work, showers, life's necessities, etc.) of that day's free time. Now, if they have any other time during the week to schedule in playing; they must now work on earning gold ... for repairs, for flasks, for gems, for enchants, for pots; or work on the equivalent professions. Either way, it will most likely take up that entire day's time commitment to be prepared for raiding.

    So now, you have a person who wants to play 'casually' (non-intense commitment) dedicated 4 full days of the play time schedule outside work and responsibilities, to commit to work and responsibilities in game. They may not have an extra 3 days a week to play the game. So their whole play time is raid and raid prep.

    I know that is a somewhat strong example; but it is not out of the realm of possibility, nor do I think that stretches too much away from what one should expect.

    Think of casual as someone who wants to be able to jump in and play the game how they want, when they want. That is not unreasonable; especially in a sub based game. That also doesn't mean they should get everything handed to them; but it means they need a portion of the game designed for that type of engagement. We have systems designed for people who have extremely dedicated takes and commitments; there needs to be something to fill in for what is most likely the majority of the players (just compare total numbers in wowprogress vs sub numbers from quarterly reports and it will tell you how few are in the dedicated raider camp).

    You try to down play the actual time commitment. it is not 6-9 hours a week to raid; it is more like 16 hours for the example you presented; and it takes up 4 full days of someone's play time.

    You also ignore the fact that some people can only play an hour or two at a time, and may be able to play every day though. They still love the game. They are still adding to the profit margin of the company so they can continue to invest in it. Instead of being adversarial, you could be empathic and try to come up with solutions to the greater problem.

    Using their own system, based off of other games experiments of dynamic content; they could create something that could have more of a pick up and leave feeling that some require without pissing on the established paradigm.

    In another thread, I mentioned a way to do this in WoW. Say they decide they want to rebuild SMC and fix Exo. They set up dynamic events including gathering turn ins from cloth to herbs to leather, kill/collects, and then you also get invasions, escorts, supporting offensive strikes, etc that happen as world/zone events. Have people out in the world, working together. The reward system would be a combination of pets, mounts, vanity, and 'world' pve gear with set bonuses that would be specifically helpful to world pve (mount speed bonuses, run speed bonuses, cd resets, etc) that would not be active in instanced content (dungeons, raids, arenas, bgs). You could set the ilvl around lfr/flex for the easily gathered items, then make some stuff much harder to get both time and difficulty wise fit in the normal to somewhere under heroic raid ilvl. Put this behind intense group activities with tough mobs or an occasional zone boss that can be failed that either doesn't always spawn, or you have to complete a large set of objectives that makes it possible to not always finish unless people organize (and would have to scale to people actively partaking in the zone events).


    That is just an example of something that could be geared towards a casual player that cannot commit 16 hours a week to be a halfway decent raider, or that cannot commit 3-4 hours in one sitting (for health/personal/family reasons). It doesn't negate raiding or pvp progression, it is separate and just a little under equal to let the raiders keep their egos. It allows player to actively participate in a coming in game change, a way to implement world changes while still involving that change in content. It will give the world a more alive feeling, because things will not be stagnant for 7 years; this would provide the opportunity to put resources across the world in a metered fashion.

    This is similar to how Rift approaches rifts, but better. It is like FATEs in FFXIV, but better. I didn't participate/wasn't playing for barrens/timeless isle; but from what I read, it didn't have any longevity; part of this design would be intended longevity ... ie: an set of world events could last about a patch or a raid tier. To gain the best rewards, the cost vs acquisition of the currency would take about 3/4 the time of the intended length of the content. This would allow for some catch up, and for some to feel accomplished by getting done and having a small 'break' before the next implementation.


    Why can't we have both serious raiding and less committed forms of content that offer some form of progression as well? Why not design a game that has various systems that end up making most people happy and have something to do? Why does everything have to be either/or and exclusive? Why can't gamers support each other? Why not be nice to each other? I don't mean coddle the ones who can't be arsed to put in any effort in LFR (which some threads in the past showed it was not casuals, but lazy raiders who felt 'too good' to bother but went in anyway). I wish there was a way to punish leechers and not run into useless fucks as much as the next person; but being generally dismissive and not understanding the bigger picture or even attempting to see things outside one's narrow view helps nothing. Need real suggestions, not some trite bullshit

  13. #393
    Mechagnome Saeran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    That's a weak argument, You just can't manage the time, I personally know a guy who works as an OR Tech, has a wife and 3 kids (All Toddlers), and took Courses in College, and yet still found the time to Raid Heroics, why? Because he knew how to manage his time. Obligatory "Inb4 Bad Worker/husband/dad/student" comment, just because you raid, doesn't automatically mean every other aspect of your life suffers. H Raiding =/= Putting in Method/Blood Legion Race for World First Hours.
    I wasn't going to comment on here but you still don't live in a real world. Your 'friend' maybe able to raid as you say, but as someone whose husband works away for long periods of time, a daughter of two who has autism and a seven year old boy. On top of this I have a full-time job to hold down. You explain to me how I can ever commit to play a fixed-time raid schedule. Lack of 'time management' - your having a laugh.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    I wasn't going to comment on here but you still don't live in a real world. Your 'friend' maybe able to raid as you say, but as someone whose husband works away for long periods of time, a daughter of two who has autism and a seven year old boy. On top of this I have a full-time job to hold down. You explain to me how I can ever commit to play a fixed-time raid schedule. Lack of 'time management' - your having a laugh.
    But you accept you're in the minority there, right?
    >SIX A-BONG SIX A-BONG OLLY JOLLY IT'S SIX-A-BONG

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    I wasn't going to comment on here but you still don't live in a real world. Your 'friend' maybe able to raid as you say, but as someone whose husband works away for long periods of time, a daughter of two who has autism and a seven year old boy. On top of this I have a full-time job to hold down. You explain to me how I can ever commit to play a fixed-time raid schedule. Lack of 'time management' - your having a laugh.
    How did you ever had time to commit to WoW? Vanilla was way more time sucking than MoP will ever be.
    And as I understand. you have fixed schedule for job? - Than you will likely hav fixed schedule for sleeping and thus having few hours of free time to manage as you please. that may include hour or 3 to dedicate to wow.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeran View Post
    This rudely put point is what annoys me. I want to be able to play the game that I love to play, that I have played since 2005 when I am ABLE to play.
    And you can. Whats your point?

  17. #397
    Warchief sizzlinsauce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    holy fuck how casual can you get... and you want them to turn normal raiding into LFR? they gave you a tool and you decided to not use it. dont be a dick about it.

  18. #398
    Mechagnome Saeran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    But you accept you're in the minority there, right?
    My personal situation maybe in the 'minority' but the whole argument here is that a large part of the modern WoW player-base are unable to play fixed-time playing. And these are the type of players that are probably the majority of the subscription base of WoW and for Blizzard not to cater for these players as well would be financial suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    How did you ever had time to commit to WoW? Vanilla was way more time sucking than MoP will ever be.
    And as I understand. you have fixed schedule for job? - Than you will likely hav fixed schedule for sleeping and thus having few hours of free time to manage as you please. that may include hour or 3 to dedicate to wow.
    The issue is that people's lives have changed since they started playing WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by wookybear View Post
    And you can. Whats your point?
    My point is that is don't like others telling me that i should 'go play another game'.
    Last edited by Saeran; 2013-11-02 at 03:50 PM.

  19. #399
    Field Marshal Ejmis's Avatar
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    World of Warcraft: The return of Uther. Focused around the returned Uther with Sargeras inside of him, AND he got Frostmourne in one hand and Medivhs staff in the other hand. And he wears the skin of rexar as a cloak. + he got gnomes for feet.

    I've made a perfect example of how he should look like.

  20. #400
    Scarab Lord cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    So being able to do everything the game offers is "shit"? Really? Time to take a break and go outside.
    The less you know, the more you believe.


    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

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