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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I tried Flex, but I gave up when I saw the "achievements and 540-gear!"

    The question is: To what audience do you want to cater and how 'low' do you want to go with that?
    Some people would only be happy when they enter the instance, every boss drops dead and they get the loot.
    But is that the audience that they should cater to? And what will that do to the LFR-crowd who actually enjoy the fights?

    By lowering their standards all the time, players also lower their own standards.
    It's a downward spiral!
    "The dps-requirement is harsh".
    -"We balanced it around people in greenies! But we'll change it!"
    "Yeah, I really don't like to get out of fire."
    -"Uhm.. Okay, we'll lower the damage."
    "I also don't like to stack on the tank."
    What do you expect them to say? "Please wait, we'll remove the mechanic?"

    At what point does the game stop being a game because you removed everything that made it a game?
    this was about lfr, right? and not the game!
    The game also has flex, normal and heroic.

    lfr is meant for a certain kind of player, not for those who enjoy flex, n or hc more... they can come, zerg through it, get their drops and proceed to their content.
    I really see no reason to complain about it.. it is there for a reason and for a certain playerbase......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Personally I could care less. I finally got into a Flex and Normal guild so they can nerf LFR to the ground. Doesn't affect my game experience one iota. Good thing I don't worry about what the remaining millions of other players are doing.
    This is exactly what i mean!

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Lixo View Post
    I for one am happy it's easier to just run through the SoO LFRs on my numerous alts instead of wiping 10 times on Garrosh because nobody seems to know what to do.
    that's exactly what the OP is criticizing. "nobody seems to know what to do" should mean "nobody gets to see loot until they KNOW what to do". instead it becomes more and more "even if nobody knows what to do, they should be presented with loot". that's bad for the game, and it's bad for the players - even if they don't know this themselves.

    it should be possible to NOT get loot if your group is just too bad. but i guess that concept doesn't fit into today's carebear games anymore.

  3. #203
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Heheh... people screamed that they wanted PUGs back. I guess most had forgotten about these ridiculous entry requirements.
    I will have another try tomorrow evening :P Hopefully things will be better.
    It really sucks, after five years of hardcore raiding I cannot get a pug because I don't have the achievement and don't overgear the instance.
    From the perspective of a raider, LFR is already like beating a training dummy for 10 minutes to get a chance at loot.
    If they nerf it even further makes absolutely 0 difference at all.
    As an ex-raider, I have to disagree. You still have to follow tactics, you still have to get out of bad stuff.
    I understand that some things are too complicated for people, but I draw the line at the 'big three'.

    The big three are tactics anyone should be able to do: Attack a target, stop dps and 'stand on that marked spot'.
    I can order my pet to do it, so a player shouldn't be a problem.
    If doing one of these every 30 seconds or so is a problem, then they should fix the player and not the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    It depends on which group pays you the most. Wanting otherwise is kind of silly. It's not like Blizzard has artistic integrity or anything.
    Ofcourse, that's how the industry works.
    But that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my concerns, I am not attacking anyone or asking them to "FIRE GC!"
    If people are silent about it, they won't know that people oppose it.

  4. #204
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    I really see no reason to complain about it..
    I have only one reason, and that would be the replacing of 5mans.
    I had far more fun with all my various alts in previous xpacs while doing 5mans. Esp. Cata & TBC where they were a little challenging.
    Now I level some of my alts and then they do almost nothing because LFR is so extremely unfun.

    So basically, I log on to raid or prep my Priestess and after that I X wow again, because there is noting fun to do.

    It really sucks, after five years of hardcore raiding I cannot get a pug because I don't have the achievement and don't overgear the instance.
    I feel you, man. That does suck.

    but I draw the line at the 'big three'.
    To be fair: 90% of the LFR guys can do those, if you ask nicely.
    Blizzard just has to see to it that 2-3 trolls can't fuck up the entire encounter because they refuse to group up.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-11-05 at 01:32 PM.

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  5. #205
    I'm wondering how many LFR players are getting close to, or have reached, the conclusion that this isn't fun and that their expansion is now done.

    Blizzard better hope they're nerfing this fast enough to stay ahead of the death spiral.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Why?? They are not toxic players (not all maybe, there are more % of toxic players in high elite), they just play the game at minimum level required. The game itself give this options, If they took that option, it's not their fault.
    They are toxic if everyone else is putting in an effort to kill the boss and get rewarded for it, but the bad players cause them to wipe. That just lets to frustration on both sides. The bad players are better off doing content they're actually capable of, or watching a Youtube video.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Flex is awesome. It finally allows the lower end of the raid crowd to act like elitists. "LFR ? Pff real skilled people do flex. You know, REAL raiding".
    And yet its the LFR defenders who say LFR is literally designed for bad players who don't want to get better. Its not elitist to just recruit a team of players who are capable of beating Flex bosses, its just common sense. Like if you were picking players for a weekend bowling league you'd pick people who can get more hits than gutter balls.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Why?? They are not toxic players (not all maybe, there are more % of toxic players in high elite), they just play the game at minimum level required. The game itself give this options, If they took that option, it's not their fault.
    If someone goes into LFR and grossly underperforms, they are poisoning the experience of everyone else. So, yes, they are "toxic".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I have only one reason, and that would be the replacing of 5mans.
    I had far more fun with all my various alts in previous xpacs while doing 5mans. Esp. Cata & TBC where they were a little challenging.
    Now I level some of my alts and then they do almost nothing because LFR is so extremely unfun.

    So basically, I log on to raid or prep my Priestess and after that I X wow again, because there is noting fun to do.
    Well then you should complain about missing 5 mans, right?
    Now because those are missing, you think you need to do lfr, which is not intended for a player with your skills. This will not be fun for you, agreed.

    But then still, if blizz decided to take out 5 mans, you should not complain about some other content which is not intended to be 5 mans; sure, it is intended as catch up for gear.... and that is maybe the issue. So wow needs a different catch up mechanism?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Then LFR stops being used and all the lower skilled players quit which hits Blizzard's bottom line. That's effectively what Blizzard are scared of.

    Any metric is flawed. "Good play" is arbitrary.
    Doing lots of dps/hps and not dying as much as the rest of the raid is a pretty good metric to start with.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Indeed. So why is someone threatening to kick me when I am not putting in more effort?
    Some underperformance is so egregious it's just not excusable.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #211
    Honestly, what did we expect? Theyre data probably shows that the average LFR run takes to long and theres to many wipes. I mean seriously, I did LFR friday night. I spendt just about 4 hours. Endless wipes to easy mechanics, people arguing, people leaving and then wait. God forbid if one or BOTH tanks leave, then you maybe have to wait 1 hour.

    When both tanks left my LFR grp, I was able to go and make dinner, eat it, talk with my brother about random stuff and when it was all done it was closing in on 1 hour. During that time some tanks joined and instant left(cause they did not want to join a started grp). In the end, we got two tanks and could move on.

    Luckily for me, I got into a nice Flex raiding time a friend of mine was in. We cleared from start to thok(killed him to) in a few hours. Think it was between 2-3 hours. Just proves to be that I dont want to do LFR. Another player lost to the "oh so great" system.
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  12. #212
    Keep them coming. I fully embrace nerfing the crap out of LFR.

  13. #213
    They should just nerf the crap out of it from the get-go and save players the agony.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well... Whirl-gripping people as a shadowpriest on Tay'ak was fun.

    But once you know how normal / heroic raiding feels like, it's hard to not sense the absurdity of LFR.
    I think you'll have a lot of fun in Flex.
    Believe me going from Top 4 server guilds in vanilla tbc and wrath and then doing Heroic raiding on cata launch and doing this in mop I noticed a huge difference. But it did not stop my fun as when I saw the wipes on some bosses I laughed as I was like "WELCOME TO RAIDING >"

    Flex looks appealing and with improved loot im sure my little motley crew will be into it. So far the guys are looking forward to it, think they just want to get some more gear before transitioning into flex. ATM im around 525 Ilevel on DK and similar on shaman. Need to get rid of a few bad items (still have 1st tier shoulders for crying out loud!) Doing a daily dungeon and scenario every day for rep + extra valour seems to work well for me as i'm getting an upgraded item once per day as long as I have done enough LFR.

  15. #215
    Only thing I am really curious of his how bad they nerfed it.

    I hate when they release a hotfix and don't put a rough percentage of how bad something was nerfed/buffed.

    Would be hilarious if it's a ~25% nerf.

  16. #216
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
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    Now because those are missing, you think you need to do lfr, which is not intended for a player with your skills. This will not be fun for you, agreed.
    I don't "think" I have to do LFR. LFR is all there IS to do (PvE wise) for a character that does not raid, since Tanks and heals are useless in scenarios.
    I have 0 interest of raiding on my alts and to be perfectly honest: because I rarely play them, I have in not good enough, that I would even dare to enter a normal group.

    So wow needs a different catch up mechanism?
    It's not so much about the gear as it is about having alternatives.
    Plus I enjoy the 5man form factor from a healing / tanking PoV.

    Well then you should complain about missing 5 mans, right?
    Many did. Blizzard listened and promised. We will see if they keep it.

    But it did not stop my fun as when I saw the wipes on some bosses I laughed
    Well it can be hilarious at times. I heard lots of fun stories (and rage fests) from my Guild mates on TS that made me chuckle, since I very rarely do LFR.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-11-05 at 01:51 PM.

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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    It was easy before, is it blizzard caving in to people screaming nerfs on the forums? they should learn to ignore them and not cave in.
    Oh look, it's that nonsensical idea again that Blizzard makes changes due to noise on forums.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #218
    They are toxic if everyone else is putting in an effort to kill the boss and get rewarded for it, but the bad players cause them to wipe. That just lets to frustration on both sides. The bad players are better off doing content they're actually capable of, or watching a Youtube video.
    I don't agree with that. A toxic player will blame you for anything. From my experience point, most of them just are bad*. If you are in an MMO game, you should know that there are a lot of players, and all of them with different skills.

    I'm not defending them, but If the game allows them to play vs bosses and pass over them, with or without any skill, then they can continue with that. Other things are the bad behaviour and rage-quite kids, this are toxic players (and kick abusers in heroics Pugs in the old times too, I don't know how are the heroic raids this days).

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I don't "think" I have to do LFR. LFR is all there IS to do (PvE wise) for a character that does not raid, since Tanks and heals are useless in scenarios.
    I have 0 interest of raiding on my alts and to be perfectly honest: because I rarely play them, I have in not good enough, that I would even dare to enter a normal group.


    It's not so much about the gear as it is about having alternatives.
    Plus I enjoy the 5man form factor from a healing / tanking PoV.


    Many did. Blizzard listened and promised. We will see if they keep it.
    I am hoping 5mans make more of an impact in Draenor. As for Scenarios I go in on my DK quite a lot as tank. My damage is pretty damn good and isnt an issue. My shaman only has elemental spec but uses healing gear if I bother with scenarios on it. I only do scenarios for the rep and valour tbh. Heroic ones I do everynow and then with my brother and a friend for fun.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by redwitchy View Post
    I was in Downfall part 4 yesterday, took me almost 7 hours of being in different groups to finally down Garrosh. People are unwilling to learn or look anything up and when I asked if anyone doesn't know tactics please speak up, no-one did......
    No need for more nerfs, just a need for people to not walk blindly in.

    May be it was just my bad luck but ever since part 4 lfr was out I have downed Garrosh only once. Garrosh fight is all mechanics and determination stacks don't matter in that fight if no one is paying attention to the mechanics. What I have learned is if you cant down him on Tuesday or Wednesday dont bother queuing up for him in LFR because its not happening.

    The other day on paragon fight we announced after we kill the big bug DO NOT click the crystal as it will start the fight and we need to explain the fight for the group. And off course you can guess what happened. Same thing happened on on part 2 first fight. After announcing not to talk to the npc as it starts the fight someone started the fight. 3 times in a row!!!

    Either people deliberately want to wipe so that they can see their DPS numbers inflated or just to cause grief. I simply don't understand.

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