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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Removing dot snapshotting is not a good idea.... seriously.
    Nah, it is a good idea, because dot snapshotting is an awkward mechanic.

  2. #282
    with Item squish is reducing stats by 96% i don't see a point to the snapshot nerf, there will take some expansions before affli scaling will be an issue again.
    if anything affli will need some big buffs to compensate for this items squish.

  3. #283
    The Patient
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    If they remove dot snapshotting, they reeeaaally need to make affliction harder to play in some other way. As it is now, dot snapshotting is all that makes a good warlock outperform a bad one.

  4. #284
    Why no one like the new cataclysm talent? you know that with the item squich 10k damage will be great? and it's aoe, so i understand the 1min cooldown, it will be a considerable burst aoe for all specs.

  5. #285
    So, is it just a given that removing snapshotting that dots will update dynamically per tick ? Or is there another way for them to not snapshot ?
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Toy Train Set has been temporarily disabled.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    So, is it just a given that removing snapshotting that dots will update dynamically per tick ? Or is there another way for them to not snapshot ?
    well one thing they could do is to allow the bonus dot dmg from MG to also scale from your spellpower but i assume that dots will scale dynamically.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    So, is it just a given that removing snapshotting that dots will update dynamically per tick ? Or is there another way for them to not snapshot ?
    Well the only possibility i can come up with is that every time one of your dots deals damage to an enemy, the game will check your spellpower, crit chance, crit damage and mastery to calculate the damage of the dot tick. But than how is your current haste considered? Will the time intervals of all ticks over the remaining dot duration be constantly updated?

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Well the only possibility i can come up with is that every time one of your dots deals damage to an enemy, the game will check your spellpower, crit chance, crit damage and mastery to calculate the damage of the dot tick. But than how is your current haste considered? Will the time intervals of all ticks over the remaining dot duration be constantly updated?
    I think the haste at a dot tick will determine the time interval of the next one.

  9. #289
    I think it is too early for anyone to debate on the future of the class. Given that we've got that statement saying that WoD will try to break apart the class once again, anything is a subject of change. As for DoT snapshoting, I know that some people think of it as "challenge", but I think it is simply inconvenient. Why not channel the challenging aspect somewhere else? A new mechanic? That would be brighter in my opinion.

  10. #290
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    My idea on how the Chaotic Energies talent should be for demo: it is a 3 min CD that instantly gives us 500 demonic fury for 30 seconds. This allows us to enter meta form more often and the ability to align our meta with our procs and cds. I would also love to give this spell some conditional feature where if we are in meta form and for some reason we couldn't spend all the fury within the 30 seconds time frame our demon within will control us (MC) and target/attack our party memebrs for the remainder of the fury gained.

    I also think destro needs more procs or more spells to manage, while i would like demo to be a burst centered spec with good sustained damage. I dont like perma meta honestly because I feel that the metaform should be a temporary god mode for us and not a permanent shapeshift form, but this is my own taste since I believe that this transformation is exhaustive ( anime reference: I wouldn't like luffy to stay in gear 2nd all the time or naruto in kyubi form all the time)

  11. #291
    The key thing with the snapshot vs. no-snapshot thing with trinkets/procs, is that without snapshotting DoT-based classes will benefit less from trinkets/procs than non-DoT-based classes.

    DoTs are good because they do their damage over their full duration. With snapshotting, trinket procs are as good for DoTs as non-DoTs. That is to say that a +10k Int buff on a Chaos Bolt gets the same benefit as a +10k Int buff on UA. (Roughly, particular SP scaling has a say in this, but assume they're identical.)


    If snapshotting is removed, then a 10 second +10k Int buff only benefits (DoT Duration/Proc Duration)% of the DoTs damage, while it's 100% for the hard-cast. If they remove snapshotting, then all DoT classes will have to be brought up significantly higher than their direct damage competitors so that with trinkets taken into account, they do even damage.

    If you don't see the implied scaling problem in this, then here's an example: Say for Tier 1 a DoT class is balanced with a DD class. Now Tier 2 comes around with a 20% increase in relative trinket power compared to gear from the previous tier. (A general trend for MoP) The DD class which benefits more from the trinket procs is now doing more damage compared to the DoT class due to trinkets alone, which requires a rebalancing effort to keep them balanced again. In the meantime, that's assuming that they balance around the new trinkets. If they don't, then the DD class is ahead for the part of hardcore progression that matters (which is pre-Tier 2 Trinkets).


    I just see a whole heck of a lot of problems that comes out of removing DoT snapshotting; Even beyond skillcap concerns.

  12. #292
    Well put, Brusalk, but let me offer a counter stance.

    DoTs have a high Damage Per Cast Time because the damage is spread out over the DoT's duration. Right now DoT specs get a greater benefit from procs and temp buffs because they can squeeze a lot of boosted DoTs into that small window. UVLS boosted Doom casts are the most extreme example by stretching a 4s buff to last 90s, but the principle holds. The high DPCT of DoTs is multiplied by the trinket proc to have a more powerful effect that non-DoT specs get.

    I agree that some balance tweaking will be needed, but I would argue that removing snapshotting is bringing DoT classes down to the level of everyone else, not pushing them lower than everyone else from a formerly equal footing.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    The key thing with the snapshot vs. no-snapshot thing with trinkets/procs, is that without snapshotting DoT-based classes will benefit less from trinkets/procs than non-DoT-based classes.

    DoTs are good because they do their damage over their full duration. With snapshotting, trinket procs are as good for DoTs as non-DoTs. That is to say that a +10k Int buff on a Chaos Bolt gets the same benefit as a +10k Int buff on UA. (Roughly, particular SP scaling has a say in this, but assume they're identical.)


    If snapshotting is removed, then a 10 second +10k Int buff only benefits (DoT Duration/Proc Duration)% of the DoTs damage, while it's 100% for the hard-cast. If they remove snapshotting, then all DoT classes will have to be brought up significantly higher than their direct damage competitors so that with trinkets taken into account, they do even damage.

    If you don't see the implied scaling problem in this, then here's an example: Say for Tier 1 a DoT class is balanced with a DD class. Now Tier 2 comes around with a 20% increase in relative trinket power compared to gear from the previous tier. (A general trend for MoP) The DD class which benefits more from the trinket procs is now doing more damage compared to the DoT class due to trinkets alone, which requires a rebalancing effort to keep them balanced again. In the meantime, that's assuming that they balance around the new trinkets. If they don't, then the DD class is ahead for the part of hardcore progression that matters (which is pre-Tier 2 Trinkets).


    I just see a whole heck of a lot of problems that comes out of removing DoT snapshotting; Even beyond skillcap concerns.
    affliction+UVLS+2set bonus was too strong imo because of snapshotting, this is the only situation I see where dot classes will benefit from something way more than a DD class. I am thinking that blizzard cant remake trinkets like UVLS because of snapshot classes because a 5 second buff will last 20+ secs

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Well put, Brusalk, but let me offer a counter stance.

    DoTs have a high Damage Per Cast Time because the damage is spread out over the DoT's duration. Right now DoT specs get a greater benefit from procs and temp buffs because they can squeeze a lot of boosted DoTs into that small window. UVLS boosted Doom casts are the most extreme example by stretching a 4s buff to last 90s, but the principle holds. The high DPCT of DoTs is multiplied by the trinket proc to have a more powerful effect that non-DoT specs get.

    I agree that some balance tweaking will be needed, but I would argue that removing snapshotting is bringing DoT classes down to the level of everyone else, not pushing them lower than everyone else from a formerly equal footing.
    Ahh sorry I didnt read your message, that is what I wanted to say

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Well put, Brusalk, but let me offer a counter stance.

    DoTs have a high Damage Per Cast Time because the damage is spread out over the DoT's duration. Right now DoT specs get a greater benefit from procs and temp buffs because they can squeeze a lot of boosted DoTs into that small window. UVLS boosted Doom casts are the most extreme example by stretching a 4s buff to last 90s, but the principle holds. The high DPCT of DoTs is multiplied by the trinket proc to have a more powerful effect that non-DoT specs get.

    I agree that some balance tweaking will be needed, but I would argue that removing snapshotting is bringing DoT classes down to the level of everyone else, not pushing them lower than everyone else from a formerly equal footing.
    The higher DPCT of DoTs is countered by a lower DPCT on the specs filler.


    The problem with UVLS + Doom wasn't that the 4 sec buff was getting stretched out to 90+ seconds, the problem was that it had incredible synergy with other aspects of the spec. (Read: Imps from Doom Crits).

    Any spec that has synergy with a trinket proc will do massive damage with it; Snapshotting doesn't change that.


    Also, Pandemic is partially the cause of how good Affliction is with trinkets in general. A ton of trinket procs that normally wouldn't be used, or previous ones that'd be overwritten early, without Pandemic doesn't happen.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    The higher DPCT of DoTs is countered by a lower DPCT on the specs filler.

    Also, Pandemic is partially the cause of how good Affliction is with trinkets in general. A ton of trinket procs that normally wouldn't be used, or previous ones that'd be overwritten early, without Pandemic doesn't happen.
    A low DPCT of the not-DoT spells is a easy thing to change. It's not like this isn't a new expansion when all the classes get rebalanced and their spells tweaked.

    Speaking of Pandemic, did you notice that they're making that the basic functionality of ALL DoTs instead of a Warlock-only mechanic? This isn't an issue confined only to our class. As you say, Pandemic magnifies the effect of procs, and with it applying to all DoT classes it becomes that much more important to kill snapshotting.

  16. #296
    I don't really see how lack of snapshots make it weaker than direct damage. If during fight you do constant damage, then 10 sec of increased damage will boost all dot ticks in same way as direct damage casts. DPCT doesn't really come in affect if the dps graph is flat. The only time direct classes get better is when they can dump resources for high damage spike, like Destro does. Affliction will still do it somewhat, with Haunt. I can't say that I like snapshotting out, but I'm more worried how they will balance it. Just like when they decreased MF damage and increased dot damage, they will need to buff dots again, unless they are ok with spec you spec only for multi-target fights and for single you respec.

    Although I do wonder if the change will make affliction the most braindead one in game. 3 dots that can be refreshed in ~10 sec window withough any damage loss, not worrying about clipping anymore, instant redot with soulburn and mass spread with no cd Soul Swap. And only one dot have ~1 sec cast time, MG can be KJCed if you wish to.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    If they like hybrids with healing cooldowns, and insist on hybrid damage being on par with pures, this might be problem.
    With the switch to Flex at all levels below Mythic, and Mythic being fixed 20; composition isn't going to be quite so tight. 10H is the reason for the "I was benched because of X" QQ. Flex it's just a non-issue and there's plenty of room in 20s to get every class in and double up a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    So snapshotting goes the way of the Dodo, as allready said in this thread. HATE seeing it go. Hope to hear what they have in mind to keep Affliction especially competetive and engaging to play.

    The details:



    Said by GC on twitter.

    Source: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...28461132152832
    I think he has a fair point to be honest. I have mixed feelings about it, it was something else to watch but with the new stats like cleave, multistrike etc there's definitely potential for other things to come up to think about.

    If you consider again the changes to raiding itself, with one raid size at Mythic level they have a lot more scope for more interesting to mechanics in the encounters themselves too to think about because they don't need to worry about 10s missing something.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Well put, Brusalk, but let me offer a counter stance.

    DoTs have a high Damage Per Cast Time because the damage is spread out over the DoT's duration. Right now DoT specs get a greater benefit from procs and temp buffs because they can squeeze a lot of boosted DoTs into that small window. UVLS boosted Doom casts are the most extreme example by stretching a 4s buff to last 90s, but the principle holds. The high DPCT of DoTs is multiplied by the trinket proc to have a more powerful effect that non-DoT specs get.

    I agree that some balance tweaking will be needed, but I would argue that removing snapshotting is bringing DoT classes down to the level of everyone else, not pushing them lower than everyone else from a formerly equal footing.

    Blizzard shouldn't be making trinkets like UVLS anyway.
    It was never a problem in previous expansions, there are only 2 trinkets that come to mind that were broken-ish or outright broken with snapshotting.

    Considering it's affliction that's the main utiliser of dot snapshotting to get damage, who's dots last upto what, 30ish seconds or something? Most trinkets tend to be between 10-20 second duration, the 4->90 thing seems a tad hyperbole.



    It wasn't a big problem in WOTLK or Cata, before trinkets and ilevels became completely out of control with things like UVLS, hopefully the next expansion with it's item squish will solve half of the problems that exist with dot snapshotting itself.
    I just see no decent reason to remove something in the name of either making affliction simpler (there are other classes and other specs for that), or fixing problems that have only existed during MOP (using an addon to track something, gasp. Or dot snapshots giving too much dps), by removing a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic rather than looking at WHY it became so out of control in MOP when the mechanic was a minor and enjoyable to utilise way of minmaxing in prior expansions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think he has a fair point to be honest. I have mixed feelings about it, it was something else to watch but with the new stats like cleave, multistrike etc there's definitely potential for other things to come up to think about.
    I can see where he's coming from, but the addon is far from mandatory, nor is it exclusive to that mechanic - how many other classes use addons to track things?
    Shall we remove boss mechanics because of DBM?
    Dots since most people use trackers?
    Ret Paladins since iirc they can get an addon that pops up what button to press?
    Hell, DOT snapshotting is one of the few things that DOES require the user to put in some thought as to if they want to cast something now or if they think a proc is coming up / fight specific mechanics dictate acting differently. If it was removed affliction might well end up being simple enough that you could use one of those addons that literally tells you what buttons to press and when, THAT would be an addon telling you how to play.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-11-11 at 02:58 AM.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    removing a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic
    I think, ultimately, this is why we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think snapshotting is fun, I don't think it's engaging, and I don't think it's good for game design or class balance. I've been agitating to end it since Wrath, and I'm quite pleased it's finally happening.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    I think, ultimately, this is why we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think snapshotting is fun, I don't think it's engaging, and I don't think it's good for game design or class balance. I've been agitating to end it since Wrath, and I'm quite pleased it's finally happening.
    Well, everyone has their opinions. I like more harder and challenging the game is, but sadly Blizzard's goal is to make as much money as possible and that is impossible if you don't satisfy the majority, casuals. There are currently lot of choices for affliction when to refresh dots, how do you refresh them, like do you want to override 15k int proc with X sec left with 30% meta gem proc for full pandemic duration etc... All these can be calculated, but most of the players won't and they do these kind of choices on the fly. I'm pretty sure most of the good players won't look at AffDots addons colors and blindly follow the color rules when to refresh dots, like ghostcrawler might be suggesting in his tweet.

    It's also Blizzard fault that dotting is so hard for "casuals". It's very hard to track your dots and procs in Default UI without addons. Blizzard will probably make every DoT like Rupture for Combat, doesn't benefit from haste, 1% dps decrease if you drop it out from rotation. But we will see what changes along with dot snapshot removal they will do to our class. But I won't be happy if there is no way for people who put extra effort to increase their performance to separate from the mass.
    Last edited by esatikkane; 2013-11-11 at 04:47 AM.

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