6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Jarion]

Now i am getting excited. That whole twitter conversation is really interesting.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

But that's basically the key point, the fact that it is a threat drop on top of removing DoTs AND a 90% reduction means it's trying to do too much. I also don't feel that 3 seconds of doing nothing is the proper way to do a threat dump, it should just instantly drop you from everything, ala vanish and feign death. There might be some argument if it actually faded you out over time, but that's never worked correctly.

The actual DR and DoT removal? That's totally fine being a talent in my eyes, considering we have ice block. The cooldown reduction could go either baseline or talented, as honestly it doesn't really matter which way it goes. We're still going to change to it when needed, even if the options are better on other fights. If it remains a talent perk, a 3-5m threat dump doesn't seem too bad, given we'll likely only ever have issues on the pull. Remember that tank damage isn't increased by vengeance anymore, and they just do ~75% of a DPS spec by default, with a 500% threat mod, 700% while the taunt effect is up. As long as the tank is pushing buttons, you won't pull after a lead is established.

I do feel that it won't remain 5m baseline, though. It seems a relic from TBC, something to prevent mages from doing stealth runs, as that was the domain of rogues and cats.

[Akraen]

If MI goes on a talent tree, then it better always be viable.

I don't want to do a single raid w/o Mirror Images.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

If MI goes on a talent tree, then it better always be viable.

I don't want to do a single raid w/o Mirror Images.

Depending on the third option, and how much movement is in any given fight, it could very well be optimal if it goes that route. They're also getting pretty good at balancing DPS options from a numeric standpoint, so I wouldn't worry too much.

[Obelisk Kai]

Regarding our Level 75 talent tier...someone on the official US forum mentioned something.

What if it is like this...

Mage Bombs: Nether Tempest, Living Bomb, Frost Bomb. All retooled as dots, short cooldowns. Can't be multi-dotted. Massive damage on single target.

Would you like a dot in your main rotation?

Falling Stars: Comet, Meteor and for want of a better phrase, Arcane Nova. A cast time nuke that deals cleave damage. Medium cooldown.

Do you want a nuke in your rotation you'll have to cast?

Mage Orb: Frost Orb, Flame Orb and Arcane Orb. Instant cast cleaving nuke, deals massive burst damage. On a minute long cooldown.

Long term insta-cast burst spell.

All three would be balanced around potential cleave damage and (depending on how fire works out in it's rebuild) generating resources/procs.

The choice would come from a fire and forget burst spell, a cast time on a longish cooldown (20-30 seconds) and a dot you'd have to maintain.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I personally hope not. Frozen orb + comet storm, man.

Either way, I'm off to bed.

[Polarthief]

Ok then. Guess there is more than anyone expected.

That means 2 talens are the same as they are currently.. oh my

Ice Barrier and Greater Invisibility pleeeeeeease. Good find though; gonna add to OP

In before the 2 things that survived unchanged are IW and RoP

THERE'S _NO_ FUCKING WAY. If they massively changed our talents like that...



Anyways, here's my speculation (and predictions) on new talent changes. Take it for what you will.

- Mage Bombs were consolidated to one talent, currently leaving us with 16 talents+2 slots (Unconfirmed, but exceedingly likely!).
- A new tier of L100 talents makes the total at 19+2 slots = 21 total talents.
- 12 new talents brings the total unchanged to 9. (7 New talents if you exclude the obvious L100 tier and the new L75 talents)
- 3 old/existing spells are now talents (Blast Wave? :3). 6 Talents unchanged.
- 4 talents got major changes. 2 Talents unchanged.
- I think it's safe to assume at least 2, if not, all 3 of the L90 talents got removed and replaced, leaving 4-5 brand new talents elsewhere.
- I'd almost like to assume Flameglow and PoM were removed, bringing the new talents to 2-3.
- The L45 tier is nigh useless to PvE and only good for PvP, but most people pick RoF anyways. I'd think RoF becomes baseline and this whole tier gets replaced. -1-0 new talents left (Because of this, maybe we can assume all 3 L90 talents were removed?)
- Cauterize, Ice Floes, Temporal Shield, and Mage Bombs are probably the "Majorly Changed" list. I don't know anything else that would require heavy changes without being outright removed.
- Blazing Speed was probably one of the removed talents as well(?)
- Cold Snap would either get major changes or be outright removed for something new. My vote's on something new.
- Celestalon never said none of the removed talents would (or wouldn't) become baseline/spec spells. Don't assume all of them are gone for good because there's a good chance some may become spells.

After all of the above, we currently have the following:
L15: <Empty>, <Empty> <Majorly Changed> Ice Floes
L30: <Majorly Changed> Temporal Shield, <Empty>, <Unchanged> Ice Barrier
L45: <Empty>, <Empty>, <Empty>
L60: <Unchanged> Greater Invisibility, <Majorly Changed> Cauterize, <Empty>
L75: <Majorly Changed> Mage Bombs, <Empty>, <Empty>
L90: <Empty>, <Empty>, <Empty>
L100: <Empty>, <Empty>, <Empty>

So there's 15 empties for the 12 new talents and the 3 old/existing spells turned into talents (one of them most likely being Blast Wave one would think), Ice Barrier and Greater Invisibility being the unchanged 2, and Ice Floes, Temporal Shield, Cauterize, and Mage Bombs being the Majorly Changed.


Remember: This is purely my hypothesis and I don't claim any of the above as fact, with the exception of Mage Bombs (as we know they're staying and they have to change), and the L90 talents being extremely likely to have all gotten the boot.

[Obelisk Kai]

THERE'S _NO_ FUCKING WAY. If they massively changed our talents like that...

Polarthief there is a really good chance RoP has survived in some form. Would you be irritated if it survived as a cooldown like some people have suggested?

[Polarthief]

Polarthief there is a really good chance RoP has survived in some form. Would you be irritated if it survived as a cooldown like some people have suggested?

If I have to use it as non-Arcane, yes. I would be sufficiently irritated. If it's only tied to Arcane and I'm never forced to play Arcane again, I wouldn't really give a shit.

Also, I went back and edited my previous post with my prediction on the talent changes. Take it for what you will.

[Imnick]

Your projected list looks pretty likely to me.
I mean... I'd be surprised if Cauterise sees a lot of changes but considering the numbers they gave us, there aren't a lot of other options? Maybe they'll just make it a Fire passive again.

[Obelisk Kai]

If I have to use it as non-Arcane, yes. I would be sufficiently irritated. If it's only tied to Arcane and I'm never forced to play Arcane again, I wouldn't really give a shit.

Also, I went back and edited my previous post with my prediction on the talent changes. Take it for what you will.

At this point your guesswork is as good as any others.

I wonder how this level of adjustment compares to other classes as we move towards 6.0?

I think we are on the heavy end of changes from that tweet. I might even say the extreme end of changes.

Yet as exciting as it is that our talent grid is getting looked at, and any improvement here (especially on the suggested level) is welcome it's still half the battle.

Arcane needs to be fun.
Fire needs rebuilt so it doesn't go continually on the nerf rollercoaster.
Frost needs changed so it stops being the red-headed pve stepchild.

And above all, the three of them need to be provided with distinct identities, which they can start with by trying more imaginitive rotations for the specs other than a carbon copy of fire.

P.S. Does this level of change imply that there WAS serious flaws with the Mage class over the course of the last expansion? (well, duh, we know there were. But I have to account for our innate bias as Mages). Or that the system changes and the dialling back of the number of certain abilities more of an impact? Or is it a combination of both. I don't know.

Regardless, when they used to comment on class changes following a major patch what was it they always said about Mages and our issues? That, more or less, we were fine.

Right now, Mages are not fine.

But this level change makes me want to hope that once they started really going through our talents it was like picking away at that one spot of dry rot on the wall, knocking through, finding out things were much worse than you'd planned and serious effort was going to have to be provided to put things right.

I believe this is the most transformative moment our class has ever seen.

Let's make the best of it now and in the upcoming beta.

[Polarthief]

Your projected list looks pretty likely to me.
I mean... I'd be surprised if Cauterise sees a lot of changes but considering the numbers they gave us, there aren't a lot of other options? Maybe they'll just make it a Fire passive again.

To be fair, I could easily swap any of my "Majorly Changed" talents with "Removed/Replaced" talents, with the likely exception of Mage Bombs and at least Invocation and IW (I could see RoP becoming a stupid cooldown, but I'd think it'd be a spec spell for Arcane), but it's my belief that Ice Barrier and Greater Invisibility will be the two talents that are unchanged (or tweaked in a very small way, such as a cooldown, duration, or power change... TBH I'd love to see GI get a small duration increase).

Also wouldn't mind seeing Cauterize go back to being passive for Fire.

I wonder how this level of adjustment compares to other classes as we move towards 6.0?

I'd love to know if other classes get a nice talent overhaul, too. However, I really hope that this doesn't blindside us from the fact that the base spells/passives for our specs also need changing, Fire especially with Arcane needing some major tweaks.

I think we are on the heavy end of changes from that tweet. I might even say the extreme end of changes.

You could easily say this is definitely on the extreme end when only TWO of our current eighteen talents are unchanged (with Mage Bombs being confirmed to stay, but be changed).

Yet as exciting as it is that our talent grid is getting looked at, and any improvement here (especially on the suggested level) is welcome it's still half the battle.

Arcane needs to be fun.
Fire needs rebuilt so it doesn't go continually on the nerf rollercoaster.
Frost needs changed so it stops being the red-headed pve stepchild.

And above all, the three of them need to be provided with distinct identities, which they can start with by trying more imaginitive rotations for the specs other than a carbon copy of fire.

Glad to see I'm not the only one keeping this in mind with these heavy changes to our talents! Frost IMO needs the least changing (scaling is what really needs to be fixed), while Fire needs some devastating changes to make it work (for the better). Hopefully, we'll see more than just a talent overhaul.

[Styxz]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/02/26/ce...2-new-talents/

May make my way back to my mage if these are good changes/talents.

[Obelisk Kai]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/02/26/ce...2-new-talents/

May make my way back to my mage if these are good changes/talents.

And an update

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...46834484203520

"...more than half of them are entirely new..."
Not quite true. There are 28 Mage talents total; some are spec-specific.

This actually makes a little more sense as some of the talents we have are reasonable and getting rid of them would be almost like getting rid of the baby with bathwater.

Okies, extrapolation time. 28 talents total. 21 slots...so at least three mutating talents.

Mage bombs we can say is easily a mutating talent. 1 slot. 3 talents.
Falling Stars is also likely a mutating talent. 1 slot. 3 NEW talents.

You know, even factoring in the mutating talents as new thats still a heck of a lot of room for brand new talents. Not to mention the ones being heavily modified or cleared away for current or old spells to become talents.

Our tree is still gonna be unrecognisable.

[Nightfall]

I sure hope one of the old spells turned into talent is Blastwave.

Haven't seen anyone suggest shields tier made into one talent a-la Mage Bomb. I think we might see something like this. Ice Barrier for Frost, Temporal Shield for Arcane and (possibly updated or buffed) Flameglow for Fire. That mitigation talent might be accompanied with a survival cd talent like defensive Alter Time and an escape tool like double Blink or something.

[Mastamage]

If MI goes on a talent tree, then it better always be viable.

I don't want to do a single raid w/o Mirror Images.

Hell, I'll use it regardless of being optimal on every fight just because I like to see multiples of myself in sexy transmogs.

[voltaa]

Cauterize going baseline and replaced with alter time as a purely survival CD calling it now.

Also am I reading the tweet wrong or are we missing out on two talents 12 new and 4 changed is 16, 3 old ones is 19...where are the last two?

[Obelisk Kai]

Cauterize going baseline and replaced with alter time as a purely survival CD calling it now.

Also am I reading the tweet wrong or are we missing out on two talents 12 new and 4 changed is 16, 3 old ones is 19...where are the last two?

Actually I would argue greater invis would go baseline, maybe sans the dot removal (or not) and alter time takes it place. I have reasoning elsewhere, but another point in favour of this would be it would make baseline invisibility a lot more useable as a spell and less a button bloating key. For the majority of mages after all it is on a 5 minute cooldown and a lot of the time, especially in pvp, the fade means you never vanish properly.

In fact, invis now is a mediocre spell whereas ginvis is what it should be.

[LocNess]

Yeah Greater Invis should just be the new baseline honestly. I honestly haven't used regular invis since....5.1? 5.0?

[Deleted]

Yeah Greater Invis should just be the new baseline honestly. I honestly haven't used regular invis since....5.1? 5.0?

It's just so useful. 90% reduced damage is amazing.