6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Kuni Zyrekai]

It'd also make us mandatory. They're trying to move away from that.

Observers have spellsteal, before anyone tries to point it out.

[mrgreenthump]

All this talent tier talk got me thinking though.. what happens to Tier 3 come WoD. We really never utilized it outside of a few add fights or wipe situations on certain trash in Raids.

[Mastamage]

It'd also make us mandatory. They're trying to move away from that.

Observers have spellsteal, before anyone tries to point it out.

I could go for some more mandatory CC in encounters a la polymorph or RoF maybe. I haven't had polymorph on my bars since ICC.

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All this talent tier talk got me thinking though.. what happens to Tier 3 come WoD. We really never utilized it outside of a few add fights or wipe situations on certain trash in Raids.

That's kind of the designated pvp tier. At least that's how I view it. Frostjaw is about all I ever used in a pve setting for interruptable targets.

[Rigwaltz]

They say they want to move away from that but aren't they making mystic raiding where all spell can be used? How this less mandatory then a warlocks health stone ? Health stones sometime mean a kill or a wipe. How about warriors and the addition of skull banners? Most top end guild can't turn away from a raid wide increase crit. Skull banner is important as a lust class.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

All this talent tier talk got me thinking though.. what happens to Tier 3 come WoD. We really never utilized it outside of a few add fights or wipe situations on certain trash in Raids.

Honestly? I think it'll be cut. I haven't the faintest clue what they'd put in there given the stated goals so far, but I don't think it'll stay.

Makes me sad, I like ice ward's sound.

[mrgreenthump]

That's kind of the designated pvp tier. At least that's how I view it. Frostjaw is about all I ever used in a pve setting for interruptable targets.

If you look the talents like that.. almost all our talent tiers were designed as PvP in mind rather than PvE.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

They say they want to move away from that but aren't they making mystic raiding where all spell can be used? How this less mandatory then a warlocks health stone ? Health stones sometime mean a kill or a wipe. How about warriors and the addition of skull banners? Most top end guild can't turn away from a raid wide increase crit. Skull banner is important as a lust class.

Mythic is different. You can make a raid for the top of the top and assume you'll have a somewhat balanced comp. You can make a mythic-only piece of the encounter require a unique class mechanic. You can't really assume that for 10m, no matter how hardcore, as there's now 11 classes.

There's also the matter of you don't really want to dump iconic class abilities, which healthstones have been. I personally don't see skull banner making the cut. It'll go personal or be removed. Also, MS is recruiting DPS warriors, we have no banners.

[Tojara]

Mandatory isn't bad going forward, especially for Mythic raiding. They explicitly said one of the reasons their design was limited when balancing 10/25 heroic is that they couldn't assume 10 man had a certain class 100% of the time.

Going forward they could probably sprinkle raid utility or mechanical things that flat out require certain classes in order to do some encounters with any efficiency. Because it would be assumed that a 20 man guild would have at least one of each class.

Not that it's a great example, but it's why you don't see a lot of spellstealable things in raids anymore.

[mrgreenthump]

They say they want to move away from that but aren't they making mystic raiding where all spell can be used? How this less mandatory then a warlocks health stone ? Health stones sometime mean a kill or a wipe. How about warriors and the addition of skull banners? Most top end guild can't turn away from a raid wide increase crit. Skull banner is important as a lust class.

It was more towards them being able to make encounters that needed class abilities like Spellsteal again. And to skull banner and health stone.. I would bet they are getting removed or slowly phased out, at least the stacking of skull banners and the Shammy thingy which I seem to have forgotten.

[Mastamage]

If you look the talents like that.. almost all our talent tiers were designed as PvP in mind rather than PvE.

If you think about that tier though, the only one we used to some degree this expansion was RoF on Will of the Emperor H for add control. Sure, every tier has some talents that look more like pvp but that tier doesn't see use inside pve.

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It'd also make us mandatory. They're trying to move away from that.

Observers have spellsteal, before anyone tries to point it out.

Do you think Observers will lose that ability to make us the only ones with it?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Do you think Observers will lose that ability to make us the only ones with it?

Doubt it. It's enough of a niche spell, and really one of the few ways to upgrade a flat out dispel. It's better used on us as it stands anyway, the only use of it in a raid so far has been to tank something. Observers don't have the threat buff, I doubt it'd be that useful without baby steps on actually DPSing that target. And for a DPS increase, it's still better on us.

[Rigwaltz]

Mythic is different. You can make a raid for the top of the top and assume you'll have a somewhat balanced comp. You can make a mythic-only piece of the encounter require a unique class mechanic. You can't really assume that for 10m, no matter how hardcore, as there's now 11 classes.

There's also the matter of you don't really want to dump iconic class abilities, which healthstones have been. I personally don't see skull banner making the cut. It'll go personal or be removed. Also, MS is recruiting DPS warriors, we have no banners.

I really don't think this will make that mandatory for lower tier raiding even 10 man. I have made many a kill without a health stone. However, in heroic I beg for health stones. It makes a kill much easy and prevent death. A resource gem wouldn't be more important then a health stone for a raid. It would general help the raid however. Increase use mana for healers and give dps classes more resources so that can use more abilities. These mana management doesn't seem to be as important as back in the day. Most classes can simply wait a second and there resource are full. But top end raiders push there skill to the max and May can use extra resources at times. My skill with Mage is not top notch as I have just switch to it. I really haven't push him hard enough to warrant the use of even my own mana gem.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

We're mages. We give no shits about mana in general. What about the rogue, hunter, DK, warrior? 10 of their resources is a fair amount. Healthstones can be made up with healing better or out-gearing the encounter. Free energy? That's free DPS, and we'd be secured a spot in any raid that gave a damn about DPS. It's just as bad as stormlash and skull banner.

[Akraen]

Why can't I like posts on MMO-C? I want to upvote Kuni's post so bad.

[Mastamage]

I always thought resto shamans were just a mana resource

[Kuni Zyrekai]

We don't let them know that overtly, though.

[mrgreenthump]

Why can't I like posts on MMO-C? I want to upvote Kuni's post so bad.

Cause everyone would be -500?

[Kapadons]

I really don't think this will make that mandatory for lower tier raiding even 10 man. I have made many a kill without a health stone. However, in heroic I beg for health stones. It makes a kill much easy and prevent death. A resource gem wouldn't be more important then a health stone for a raid. It would general help the raid however. Increase use mana for healers and give dps classes more resources so that can use more abilities. These mana management doesn't seem to be as important as back in the day. Most classes can simply wait a second and there resource are full. But top end raiders push there skill to the max and May can use extra resources at times. My skill with Mage is not top notch as I have just switch to it. I really haven't push him hard enough to warrant the use of even my own mana gem.

Arcane is the only spec that cares about a mana gem. And even then it usually gets saved for a burst phase.

I suggested a while back making Dragon's Breath a tier 3 talent to replace Ice Ward. The occasional PVP fire mage shit on it as it is part of their set-up for burst. But on any fight with adds ( Nazgrim in particular ) and for trash, it offers an AOE "stun" which to me could offer a bit of extra utility without making us mandatory.

For 10 man raiding I think Water Ele should have provided spell haste. But as the shift away from 10 mans happens, I don't think it is something that will happen.

Also, Hi Kuni.

[Deleted]

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Consistency and difficulty in this particular case aren't mutually exclusive. By making Alter Time "more consistent" in your words, you would be making the class easier. You can try and argue that point all you want, but that's the cold, hard truth right there.

Alter Time is far from being in a bad state, hell I would have honestly been fine with it if it had gone into 6.0 completely unchanged. Why? For the pure and simple reason that it brings complexity into otherwise stale and boring rotations. The reason why I've enjoyed Arcane the most expansion is because it gives a feeling of full control over your DPS, so basically you, and to a large extent only you control your DPS. If you over-burn you lose DPS for the mistake, you you mis-position, you are punished fairly heavily for the mistake. They then made Nether Tempest strong beyond belief to allow multi-dotting, but that was all something that (IMO, anyway) added to the complexity of the class just because it's still more difficult than spamming 3 buttons for half a year and watching the boss health go down.

Alter Time fits into this category; it rewards good play very handsomely, but also punishes sloppy/lacklustre play. There are plenty of ways to deal with Bloodlust being popped in the middle of Alter Time, or you having to reposition during Alter Time; but no one seems to think about the fact that cancelaura macros fix these issues with the (acceptable) loss of not having extended procs/cooldowns.

[Rigwaltz]

Who know maybe they will bring back management since our mana is capped.
Another note Mage table was designed has a group "buff" that started in BC. So that group could fill up there mana and health after a pool or wipe real quick. As stands now nobody use them or needs them. I'm simply trying use for them. What's point of having a raid table that is useless?


And who cares if like skull banner, storm lash or whatever. The point is that buffs the group and it's useful. Why do you hate having something that the raid wants and that is he general good for the group? I love skull banner, health stones, lock portals, storm lash and lust. It gives the classes utility and brings some to the raid. Do you hate all of these? Should we just remove them all? Or how about we jump on wagon and get something cool. Or just keep a useless spell in our spell book.