Mythical level - 20man

[Deleted]

Do you plan on being able to raid Mythic mode ? Read my signature. Unless your killing heroic Garrosh in the near future this change doesn't affect you.

Your reading skills fail badly. Mythic mode is the current heroic mode only with a fixed 20 setting. The current normal mode is renamed to hc mode and will be a flexibile setting. The current flex mode is renamed to normal mode and will also be a flex setting.

There is no added harder mode.

Regarding the issue at hand. Its a lot easier for 25 man guilds to drop 5 guys then for 10 man guilds to recruit, none denies that. While the compromise could of been at 15 instead, I don't think many realize the effect that would have on classes. Go ahead and count how many Ret Paladins/Windwalkers/Enhancement Shamans/Blood Dks killed Garrosh 10 heroic compared to Warlocks/Mages/Prot Paladins.

Lets say Blizz would add a new class in the next expansion, how insanely overpowered would it need to be to make a spot for itself?

Ultimately, nothing changes for now and guilds will only need to cross the bridge when they get there.

[Intrepid1]

I don't live on social media so unless it's on the front page of MMO or an official blizz post I don't see it.

[Dracodraco]

I don't live on social media so unless it's on the front page of MMO or an official blizz post I don't see it.

The picture's been thrown around in tons of posts. But let this be a lesson then - don't claim to know something and lecture people if you aren't willing to make sure your sources are correct. In this case, you had none, and made yourself look like an idiot for claiming (and signaturing) something that is widely known to not be true.

[Angrybathtub]

I think it's just a rename. Same difficulties but new names and different amount of people for "heroics" aka Mythical.

[Intrepid1]

The picture's been thrown around in tons of posts. But let this be a lesson then - don't claim to know something and lecture people if you aren't willing to make sure your sources are correct. In this case, you had none, and made yourself look like an idiot for claiming (and signaturing) something that is widely known to not be true.

So MMO champion was wrong and used the Blue official posting. If you care to look it appears official.

But enough of that, more tears please.

[Chimi]

I don't think this change affects 25 man raiding at all. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of 25 man guilds are going to lose 5 people from their current roster next expansion. There is always turnover in between expansions. This now makes it easier for 25 man guilds to adjust to that turnover. This is going to be fine. At least for 25 mans.

[Fermion]

Not really, no. I'm sure those that actually play 10H currently know the headache of the balancing that has to go on with group comp, and the headache Blizzard has had in tuning 10v25H and so on. 10H guilds will adapt or dissolve and join other 20M guilds that are recruiting, simple. Life will go on, new bonds will form, new drama will happen, no one will really get fucked over. Stop overhyping the issues this will cause.

Also, normal mode guilds won't be affected by this in the slightest.

wow, that's just ... wow Stop overhyping an issue that yesterday didn't exist but today has the potential to suddenly impact tens of thousands of wow players. If Blizzard had said "next legendary ... mythic mode only" I'm pretty sure we'd be reading endless posts about how the "casual majority will quit". Yet apparently those many thousands of us who expend decent time playing a game we really enjoy with people we've grown to know, respect and work well with are apparently overhyping things. I've played (and paid for) this game constantly since April 2005 - myself and those others who think the same (and it appears there are a great many) are just as entitled to make our voices heard on this as anyone else so, well, shadap and let us speak :P

As for "normal guilds won't be affected", oh yes they will. We're stuck in SoO for I imagine another five months assuming a spring release for WoD. How many of those normal mode (as in current normal mode) will be poking their toes into heroic raids soon? Lots ... that option will go away, completely with this change unless they too increase their raid sizes. As someone pointed out elsewhere that means a potential new raid recruitment total of in excess of 40,000 players to be able to maintain a 20+ roster. With a game that is bleeding hundreds of thousands of people a year, where exactly do we find all these new, capable recruits?

[Quilm]

considering there is one other horde guild on my server capable of clearing heroics this means we merge or clear 6.0 heroic(normal 5.4) and stop raiding, we had to have people server xfer just to put together our 10 man because recruitment has been awful, i suppose adapt but fuck this is going to be a headache.

And if your going to make Mythic 20 man u might as well make the heroic 20 aswell and leave the flex tech for lfr and normal.

[Marston]

Just like 40 became 25, and 25 became 10/25, and 10/25 became 10n/10hc/25n/25hc you'll get the fuck over it.

This is the only thing you can really say. It's like the transition from Vanilla to BC. Many will bitch and in the end all will adapt.

[Deleted]

I hope they will come to realize that doubling your raid size is a lot different from shedding 20% of your players. The people who will get thrown under the bus by their 25-man raid won't have an issue finding a place, since the most common 10-man guilds will have to be looking for new players anyway.

But 20-man size will lead to neverending implosions of guilds. Anyone who's ever tried to merge 10-mans should know this first-hand. Chances are high that, currently, if you merge a guild and put them into your 10-man or form a new 25-man, it will end in drama and the groups splitting again after a few months. And each time someone stops playing wow, because they can't stand all that drama.

I personally didn't raid 25-man enough to evaluate and compare it to 10-man, but the few times I've raided it, I couldn't stand it. But to each their own. To me, 10 man is (and 15 would still be) the perfect raid size, there's just enough people to manage and you instantly know who isn't pulling their weight. It's very personal, if someone causes drama he's getting the boot and gets replaced. 10-man is just small enough to not allow "elitist" douchebaggery groups to form inside a raid, but in larger raid sizes I can see that happen very much. I've seen it so much in other games, once the groups get too big, "superior leaderships" will arise and look down at the players not inside the friend circle, creating some passive-aggressive atmosphere that's just way too toxic to ensure that everyone in the group has fun with it.

[Cloudwolfe]

So when Warlords of Draenor is released Blizzard would have spent the last 2 expansions trying to balance 10 man raiding to then force the almost 5000 10 man guilds are currently raiding the highest level of difficulty who want to continue raiding at this level to:


Merge with another guild, making 2 tanks and up to 2 healers redundant.

Completely change their group dynamic to accommodate another 10 players. Were you happy with the 9 other people you potentially spent the last couple of years raiding with? Tough shit, get recruiting.

Leave their guild because they now cannot find the people to continue at the same level to then try get into a 20 man guild that have already mandatorily cut people off.

Upgrade their toaster to be able to raid comfortably with decreased FPS.

Completely up scale their internal management to lead double the amount of people.

Change how they progress through normal (now heroic), it's great that it's flexible but if you are going to be doing Mythic you will be doing Heroic with 20 people, no less. Or make 2 less effective groups of 10 with 2 tanks and 2 healers who will not be playing the same role when the guild gets to Mythic. This will not affect the best guilds but it will screw over the medium to low end guilds who will be doing Mythic.

Change loot distribution and raid times to accommodate twice the amount of players.


Some people wonder why there are so many less 25 man guilds than 10 currently. One of the reasons is because it's a pain in the ass to run and manage a 25 man guild. Not me personally, but some people LIKE (gasp) 10 man raiding over 25.



The only question I'm left with is Why? Was it really necessary to change everything? Do Blizzard believe themselves so incompetent that they cannot balance the game properly?




Oh wait, who am I kidding? Just take one look at PvP.

[lakhesis]

This is the only thing you can really say. It's like the transition from Vanilla to BC. Many will bitch and in the end all will adapt.

Not sure it's really that analogous. Eventually people will adapt, unquestionably.

But it's more like we had to go from 25->40, rather than 40->25.

Going from 40->25 or 25->20/15/10 is ugly, and creates bad feelings, but it's easier to get rid of people than it is to get new people. Dozens of guilds prove that one constantly =)

[willemh]

but it's easier to get rid of people than it is to get new people. Dozens of guilds prove that one constantly =)

But for blizzard and for the game its ofcourse better business to get MORE people involved in raiding instead of less.

[lakhesis]

But for blizzard and for the game its ofcourse better business to get MORE people involved in raiding instead of less.

Really not convinced that more people in total goes with the larger formats. Making raids 50 people wouldn't necessarily get more people involved than if we went back to 20 or 25.

I mean we've got more people raiding than ever before now that 10s is - by a ratio of more than 2:1 - the dominant format. How much is design & how much is size? Who knows. Bliz is certainly staking a distinct gamble on design tho.

Even those who don't do heroics are going to be indirectly affected by this. There's an aspirational element to the way people watch the races to world first, or realm first, or that sorta thing. Even those who're so terrible it makes no difference follow the trends set by heroic raiding - it's like Meryl Streep's fashion quote from the Devil Wears Prada (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458352/...item=qt0483799).

[Deleted]

Well only 5k 10-man heroic's guild for a game with near 8 mil sub's. It's below low..
The 25=10 have failed in keeping the subs.
This is a move showing that raiding is about beeing with many people.
This aswell show's that the company is putting a lot of effort in heroic's for every patch and patch for less people..
Just look from the start of Mop how much the 10-man is failing in number's...

[Narshe]

Not sure why people are so upset. Normal and Heroic will scale from 10 to 25, its not going to be hard for a 10 man guild to recruit another 10 if theyre a heroic raiding group right now. You can easily find those players in WoD, because you can have your core 10, then invite more to "recruit" upwards of 20. 10 man is dead, but its really not hard to go up to 20 or 25 right now.

[Acidbaron]

Not sure why people are so upset. Normal and Heroic will scale from 10 to 25, its not going to be hard for a 10 man guild to recruit another 10 if theyre a heroic raiding group right now. You can easily find those players in WoD, because you can have your core 10, then invite more to "recruit" upwards of 20. 10 man is dead, but its really not hard to go up to 20 or 25 right now.

I think you misread it a bit the current heroic difficulty will be the new mythic difficulty and their proposed heroic difficulty is the current normal one.

Personally it doesn't effect me all that much and all in favor of bigger guilds again.

[lakhesis]

Banning 10 man from any kind of competative raiding will have the opposite effect of what you're suggesting

My guild runs 2x 10 teams, so in theory we just merge the two together and boomshanka - we have a ready-to-go mythic raid.

In reality, we're going to have to recruit. This will cause a couple of my raiders to quit. I know their opinions on 25's style raiding & this is basically that format. I don't think recruit-or-die is a positive move to force on guilds.

[Deleted]

Quote Originally Posted by Narshe View Post
Not sure why people are so upset. Normal and Heroic will scale from 10 to 25, its not going to be hard for a 10 man guild to recruit another 10 if theyre a heroic raiding group right now. You can easily find those players in WoD, because you can have your core 10, then invite more to "recruit" upwards of 20. 10 man is dead, but its really not hard to go up to 20 or 25 right now.

Some people seem to think that that the recruitment part is what worries all the 10 man guilds. While it's part of the problem, it's not really the main thing. The biggest reason as to why this change is so dumb, is that it forces us 10 man heroic raiders to abandon the raid format that we like so much, in favor of 20 man (which is gonna be like raiding 25 man). It makes absolutely no sense at all to favor the, out of the two, least appreciated raid format.

[Dracodraco]

Some people seem to think that that the recruitment part is what worries all the 10 man guilds. While it's part of the problem, it's not really the main thing. The biggest reason as to why this change is so dumb, is that it forces us 10 man heroic raiders to abandon the raid format that we like so much, in favor of 20 man (which is gonna be like raiding 25 man). It makes absolutely no sense at all to favor the, out of the two, least appreciated raid format.

You're assuming that everyone raiding 10 mans are doing it because they like it, though - not because for example, as a tank, the amount of 25 man spots are extremely limited, or heck, due to the fact that you were unable to keep a decently sized 25 man roster, forcing you to either disband or downsize. The fact that 10 mans are a bigger part of the raiding community than 25 mans doesn't mean that it's the most popular - it means it's the easiest, and what you can fall back on if 25 mans fail. There's "only" double as many people in 10 man heroic guilds than 25 man ATM, considering the above (871*33, the avg number of people in a 25 heroic guild and the number of 25 heroic immerseus kills = 28.7K. 4690*12 (immerseus kills, avg players in 10 man guild)=56.3K.

Considering the fact that any person who doesn't like 25 man can easily go and join a 10 man guild, but the opposite does not hold true due to the limited amount of 25 mans comparable and the tight spots etc, and the possible computer hardware issues for some people in 25 mans, the fact that a third of the heroic playerbase still being 25 man speaks volumes, really.