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  1. #801
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I was a guild leader during TBC, and let me tell ya, Karazhan made the conversion from 40 to 25 very difficult. Servers completely transformed.

    Our guild struggled because no matter how I shuffled up players, there was an A-Team instantly. Was a lot of drama. We survived well, but so many other guilds didn't.

    I don't think this will be too tough. Healthy guilds with good leadership will survive. Cliques will die. That's going to be healthy for the game

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Damnitbobby View Post
    FLEX 10-25 HEROIC > MYTHIC
    No, no and NO over and over again.

    This would be a total and utter CLUSTER FUCK and would be impossible to tune.

    The ENTIRE reason they are doing this is that they can tune the hardest fights in the game better.

  3. #803
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?
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  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

    Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.
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  5. #805
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fneelis View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

    Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
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  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    If you care so little then why do you even have to make such a comment? Looking up to people is almost as laughable as being a moderator on a forum about games sup with that

    I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.

  7. #807
    Blademaster
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    bitching about it will change nothing, just accept the changes and move on.
    10man can still do normal raids, if they want to do hc content, they will have to merge or recruit
    25man guilds will have to rotate or downsize

  8. #808
    I am Murloc! goblinpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    They are bitching because this change makes 2/3 of all 10 mans die, horribly in a fire.
    Since the guilds are Dying IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma
    "There is no rule regarding moderators posting in a thread and then moderating said thread"
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    YOU HAVE PERHAPS HEARD THE PHRASE THAT HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE?
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  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyalo View Post
    No. Mythic is the current 'Heroic', but is limited to 20people.

    What is Paragon going to do? Disband?
    Paragon is going to put on their big boy pants, bring back some of their old raiders, recruit a few new ones, and then give Method a run for their money.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by -Tuigan View Post
    If you care so little then why do you even have to make such a comment? Looking up to people is almost as laughable as being a moderator on a forum about games sup with that

    I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.
    He cares so little that in the poll of what heroic raiders think about 20m mythic he voted pro even though he still hasn't completed normal SoO.

  11. #811
    Nice, i cant freaking wait

  12. #812
    I'm not sure if someone mentioned this before, but forcing 20 man raids on everyone is mostly going to be hurting non-English speaking guilds.

    Over half the 10 man raiding guilds on my server are non-English speaking guilds. We've got a Finnish guild, a Polish guild, a Spanish guild, a Swedish guild, a Turkish guild and so on. I'm pretty sure this is the number one reason 10 man raiding is so exceptionally popular in Europe. Most people are just much more comfortable communicating in their own language.

    It's already pretty damn hard just to find 15 people speaking your language who can share your raiding schedule, are on your skill level, are playing the role you need and just happen to be looking for a guild. Needing to do this for the 25+ people required to run a successful 20 man raiding guild is going to be an absolute nightmare.

    In short, I think forcing 20 man raids on everyone will have significant changes for the worse for the European raiding scene. It will be forcing a lot (and I mean a whole fucking lot) of people out of the raiding game, simply due to language barriers.
    Last edited by Akylios; 2013-11-16 at 12:38 PM.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    It is the end of the world for them though in raiding terms. Recruitment will be a huge issue, especially in Europe where y'know, theres more than one language in play. Also, a lot of people enjoy the atmosphere of 10's and will just quit rather than lose that.
    If you think that's crazy then you're pretty blinkered.

    If you take the HC raiding population as the only people to be affected by this then 10's are by far the majority. What service provider in their right mind screws over the majority of a segment to make the experience more pleasurable for the minority? It beggars belief.

    I just can't see how the gains they expect from this outweigh the negatives. Perceived benefits:
    - It ends the 10/25 debate. The whole debate is just a smoke screen and excuse to hurl a few derogatory comments at the other size to stroke your own ego.
    - It makes tuning easier. Granted. Everyone appreciates someone who makes a product on the cheap "because its easier"
    - The much vaunted "unique mechanics". I'm sure that shit will get old quickly. They can do far more with an extra action button than they can with class mechanics. An extra action button lets the raid choose who they feel would be most suited for a task rather than "oh the priest has to do it"

    On top of this, whats the maximum gain they can get from this? Do they think people that have been away from the game for years will flock back to it in droves because 10 man heroics are no longer on the table? They're fucking nuts if they think that will happen.

    Anyway, its a circular debate. I can't wait for all the intelligent "lol recruit iz eezy" and "10 man isn't raiding anyway" rebuttals.

  14. #814
    Can't wait for Mythic raids.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    They are bitching because this change makes 2/3 of all 10 mans die, horribly in a fire.
    Since the guilds are Dying IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
    Of course, doubling the raid size makes at least half of the 10 man guilds redundant; that is to be expected unless there is a huge increase in the amount of people raiding. In fact, it's going to be way more than half that will die.

    -I don't think there will be any significant influx in recruitment from 25 man raiders that got cut moving to 20 man. Almost all of the need to reduce roster size for 25 mans will be absorbed by natural roster churn. A LOT of people quit every expansion.
    -The number of raiding guilds drops significantly with each expansion. In the US in T13, there were 1282 25 man guilds with at least one heroic kill and 17,012 10 man guilds. In the first tier of Cata (as of today), there are only 603 25 man heroic guilds and 5669 heroic 10 man guilds. That means there was a 53% decrease in the amount of 25H raiding guilds and a staggering 67% decrease in the amount of 10H raiding guilds in the transition from Cata to MoP.
    -If we assume the numbers from T14 (which are lower than the numbers in T16 so far but more guilds will hit heroics by the end of the expansion) and the same rate of decay from MoP to WoD, we would be left with a baseline of 283 25 man guilds and 1871 10 man guilds. Assuming that the surviving 25 man guilds just go 20 man with their existing roster churn, we would be left with 936 20 man guilds that emerged from the removal of 10H raiding and 283 20 man guilds that were former 25 man guilds.

    The reality is that it's likely more like 85% of current 10H man guilds will cease to exist by the first tier in WoD.

  16. #816
    Grunt Scriblz's Avatar
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    Personally, I like the idea of 20 man raiding. Because seeing the amount of Heroic 10 Man Guilds right now, compared to myself in a 25 man guild having downed 5/14HM so far, the difficulty is definitely much harder to play. More communication than 10 man guilds. No wonder 10 mans dominate more heroics than 25 man guilds. On ya, Blizz.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Scriblz View Post
    Personally, I like the idea of 20 man raiding. Because seeing the amount of Heroic 10 Man Guilds right now, compared to myself in a 25 man guild having downed 5/14HM so far, the difficulty is definitely much harder to play. More communication than 10 man guilds. No wonder 10 mans dominate more heroics than 25 man guilds. On ya, Blizz.
    Not trying to be a dick or anything, but it could not be the raid size, but the group itself.
    Also, 25mans beat 10mans, and more kills than 10

  18. #818
    Good 10m HC guilds with solid leadership will last. The guilds that will fall apart are the ones made up of 10 friends who refuse to invite anyone else and only play with each other. Overall i think this will make HC raiding less exclusive. Im sure there are players who would love to raid heroics but cant because they cant get into an exclusive 10m. in the end it will make heroic raiding better and it will grow.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Scriblz View Post
    Personally, I like the idea of 20 man raiding. Because seeing the amount of Heroic 10 Man Guilds right now, compared to myself in a 25 man guild having downed 5/14HM so far, the difficulty is definitely much harder to play. More communication than 10 man guilds. No wonder 10 mans dominate more heroics than 25 man guilds. On ya, Blizz.
    actually more 25 mans have downed heroic garrosh, a significant more amount of 25 mans have killed heroic garrosh.

    now there are more guilds that have atleast a heroic boss killed because there are more 10 mans, but if theres more 10 man heroic raiding guilds why have more 25 mans guild garrosh? idk if what you said is true at all, now it's not always the same, like this tier i'd say 25 mans have it easier last tier 10 mans had it easier 100%.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Scriblz View Post
    Personally, I like the idea of 20 man raiding. Because seeing the amount of Heroic 10 Man Guilds right now, compared to myself in a 25 man guild having downed 5/14HM so far, the difficulty is definitely much harder to play. More communication than 10 man guilds. No wonder 10 mans dominate more heroics than 25 man guilds. On ya, Blizz.
    Shiet u must be blind or something. Have u seen this site BIG WEBSITE FOR RAIDERS?
    Das Hulk yes.

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