Item squish is reducing stats by 96%

[Queen of Hamsters]

Was initially against the squish, but as a reasonable person they won me over with one simple line..."Relative damage won't change.".

Numbers flying being 100k or 100 doesn't bother me one bit, as long as you can feel strong relative to beings in the world.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Was initially against the squish, but as a reasonable person they won me over with one simple line..."Relative damage won't change.".

Numbers flying being 100k or 100 doesn't bother me one bit, as long as you can feel strong relative to beings in the world.

Bingo.

All the squish does is ratio things down to the floor again so they can grow without getting out of control. Likely just a side effect of not really expecting to be having a game 10 years later and still having tier by tier growth combined with expansions. I mean let us all be honest with our selves in a couple of expansion we would likely have numbers stretching from one side of the screen to the other. Sometimes scrolling endlessly. Seems silly. While it might not have been a problem in MoP, and maybe not the next expansion, it was going to eventually. Why not work it out now instead of having 2, 3, or 4 more expansions of stuff to dig though to make it work.

If you lose 20%, 50%, or 90% the world does as well. For some reason people only think of what they are losing and not the bigger picture. Oh, and of course not everything works in line of raw base line percentages. Somethings will take thought but that is part of the process. I don't have doubts some things will be missed along the way. Hell it is a lot of stuff. But it will get worked out.

[Delekii]

Ratios get taught in approximately grade 5 or 6, which means that people know what a ratio is from about 11 years old at worst, assuming they went to school.

Anyone complaining about seeing "lower" numbers is either less than 11 years old, or really, really stupid. There is no option C.


There will be a very short adjustment phase when the item squish drops, that will last minutes for most people, and then it will be like it never happened in the first place.

[THEORACLE64]

It's *good*.

They're doing that magical thing called "planning ahead", so it gives them plenty of space for future expansions so they wont run into the same problem again of having to do *another* item squish.

[khalltusk]

So do we have a rough idea what our HP levels will be in WoD? I thought we were getting a huge super reduction but then another thread stated TANK hp is still going to be rather high (Cata like in level).

[Flaim]

Ratios get taught in approximately grade 5 or 6, which means that people know what a ratio is from about 11 years old at worst, assuming they went to school.

Anyone complaining about seeing "lower" numbers is either less than 11 years old, or really, really stupid. There is no option C.


There will be a very short adjustment phase when the item squish drops, that will last minutes for most people, and then it will be like it never happened in the first place.

this!
the only difference is in pvp, which would have taken place anyways. but then we would have ended with the same relative change with about quadrillions of health while dealing billions of damage. must be fun watching the numbers of the healthbar exceeding the unitframes...

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So do we have a rough idea what our HP levels will be in WoD? I thought we were getting a huge super reduction but then another thread stated TANK hp is still going to be rather high (Cata like in level).

yeah, but that's just player health which is caused by the changes for pvp so there's no more resillience/pvppower.
other than that the squish is noticable.

[Hyve]

If you think that after 10 years of "band aid fixing" the game you can just change the variable from "INT" to LONG" you are pretty much delusional how complex WoW has become.

Holy Necro Batman!

With the release of the Alpha, and with plenty of videos now showcasing the impact the Squish has had, we can finally put to rest any of the concerns. The squish was needed, and was a very good idea. Those who still oppose it can simply go elsewhere, as they've no understanding of programming and don't understand this was more of a technical change because of need, rather than design by choice.

From what we've seen on the Alpha, it looks like they've done a very good job of it all.

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So I divided new Fireball vs old, and multiplied the result by 16 which is the cap multiplier when soloing old Raids and it is 0.75!

So you are 25% weakes when soloing, and only if you are 16 or more levels above the content you solo, i.e. LV99 or higher for Wrath Raids for Example.

If you try soloing on Wrath Raids on LV90 you get only an x7 multiplier to your damage which is a joke compared to the squish.

It's Alpha for Christ sake, they've already said they're going to ensure solo content is not disrupted. If that means putting in Zone Wide buffs to raids, they'll do it. They've said this multiple times ...

[Mamut]

So do we have a rough idea what our HP levels will be in WoD? I thought we were getting a huge super reduction but then another thread stated TANK hp is still going to be rather high (Cata like in level).

I saw video where 92 level blood DK had 87000 HP in Bloodmaul Slag dungeon. So Im sure it will be much higher at max lvl. I think its still too much. Around 90-100k hp at max level for tanks would be good.

[Baphomette]

Ratios get taught in approximately grade 5 or 6, which means that people know what a ratio is from about 11 years old at worst, assuming they went to school.

Anyone complaining about seeing "lower" numbers is either less than 11 years old, or really, really stupid. There is no option C.

Significant digits get taught around that age too.

Anyone complaining about numbers being "too big" is equally uneducated.

It's *good*.

They're doing that magical thing called "planning ahead", so it gives them plenty of space for future expansions so they wont run into the same problem again of having to do *another* item squish.

Hahahaha, no. WoD numbers are going to range from Wrath-like to Cata-like. Big power jumps between tiers are an official design rather than the unintended side effect they were in Wrath. Quite the contrary to what you think, they're going to have to squish WoD content in 7.0 to make room for the next expansion. Now that they will have done it once, it will be easy for them to pull the same stunt every time.

[Nurvus]

Vortun, they're not glasses if the tint is opaque.
This thread is full of biased information.

The squish is not about reducing numbers by a % - Vanilla numbers will barely change.
The squish is about removing the jumps in power that occur - mostly - at new expansions.

Have you ever compared a level 58 vanilla with a level 58 TBC item?
What about 68 TBC with 68 WotLK?
What about 78 WotLK and 78 Cata?
The jumps in power are insane (the least insane jump is TBC->WotLK)

A level 60 in vanilla blues has around 2500 HP (not counting Heirlooms, because those change to TBC power level at 58)
A level 61 in TBC blues/heirlooms has over 5000 HP.
From Lv80 WotLK blues to Lv81 Cata blues, you notice your HP jump from 18k to 36k.

This kind of jump exists every expansion, and Blizzard is getting rid of that.

With the new changes, going from Vanilla to TBC to WotLK to Cata to MoP to WoD will have a smoother (closer to linear) progression.
So imagine that at level 61, you're around 2700 HP and only reach around 5000 at 70, etc.
This means you'd reach around 10000 HP at 90.
However, Blizzard is increasing HP relative to damage, thus the 30k+ pools.

[khalltusk]

this!
the only difference is in pvp, which would have taken place anyways. but then we would have ended with the same relative change with about quadrillions of health while dealing billions of damage. must be fun watching the numbers of the healthbar exceeding the unitframes...

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yeah, but that's just player health which is caused by the changes for pvp so there's no more resillience/pvppower.
other than that the squish is noticable.

A shame I was hoping we would see a real squish on that front =[

[rda]

A shame I was hoping we would see a real squish on that front =[

I also was surprised by how large the post-squish player health levels were.

The "it's only for PVP" argument is a non-starter, if a player has 300k health, boss abilities have to hit for something like 70-100k per second in order for them to be dangerous. (Yeah, I know that the healing model is being reworked - we've heard that before at least two times, that never happened, and for good reasons - if you can leave the tank unattended for 20 seconds, it's a different game, it's too slow for the current players, which means boring, which means broken.) That's post-mitigation. Of course, if the boss hits for 70-100k per second, healers have to heal that back. And if healers have to heal that back, given Blizzard's approach to PVP (which is to keep the ratios the same as PVE), damage dealers have to do about the same DPS, too.

So, it seems in the beginning of WoD we will be back to about where we were in the beginning MoP, in terms of numbers. It's a strange squish, honestly, things don't appear to be squished much. /shrug

[Nurvus]

Hahahaha, no. WoD numbers are going to range from Wrath-like to Cata-like. Big power jumps between tiers are an official design rather than the unintended side effect they were in Wrath. Quite the contrary to what you think, they're going to have to squish WoD content in 7.0 to make room for the next expansion. Now that they will have done it once, it will be easy for them to pull the same stunt every time.

Actually, the "ramp up" in power we will see in WoD, will always exist in past expansions - it's called gear Tiers.
What Blizzard is removing is the jumps in power between expansions.
If you manage to gear yourself in top Vanilla tier gear before hitting level 61, you'll notice you're way ahead of the gear offered by quests and dungeons in Outland.

What is being "smoothened" is the jump from vanilla greens to outland greens, vanilla blues to outland blues, etc.
Naturally, once the expansion "after" WoD comes out, its level 101 items should be balanced to follow up on the level 100 WoD blues - NOT the T20...

So your hyperbolic argument is just that.

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(Yeah, I know that the healing model is being reworked - we've heard that before at least two times, that never happened, and for good reasons - if you can leave the tank unattended for 20 seconds, it's a different game, it's too slow for the current players, which means boring, which means broken.)

This is utter nonsense.
Any group with a brain will quickly wake up after they realize that leaving a tank unattended for 20 seconds means wipe after 1 minute.

[rda]

Actually, the "ramp up" in power we will see in WoD, will always exist in past expansions - it's called gear Tiers.
What Blizzard is removing is the jumps in power between expansions.

No, no, no. They are removing those vertical lines at the end of each expansion (on the power graph). These lines are exactly the jumps between different tiers. Roughly speaking, tier 8 (LK) is going to be not, say, 20% better than tier 7 (LK), but just 3% better or so.

Doing the squish that way automatically removes jumps in power between expansions as well.

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This is utter nonsense.
Any group with a brain will quickly wake up after they realize that leaving a tank unattended for 20 seconds means wipe after 1 minute.

How do you suppose this will work? If a tank stays unattended for 20 seconds, and not just dies like now, what would it be that will wipe everyone after 1 minute?

[Nurvus]

No, no, no. They are removing those vertical lines at the end of each expansion (on the power graph). These lines are exactly the jumps between different tiers. Roughly speaking, tier 8 (LK) is going to be not, say, 20% better than tier 7 (LK), but just 3% better or so.

Doing the squish that way automatically removes jumps in power between expansions as well.

I didn't see any of that, and it doesn't make sense.
If they make T8 3% better than T7, does that mean T18 will be 3% better than T17?
If it is, people will complain.
If it's not, it's a stupid double standard.

I don't know where you got that info, but I think the smooth line you see in the graph doesn't account for the tiers of previous expansions.
If it did, we'd have to see vertical lines at the end of each expansion, because item level grows within the same level when we're advancing in tiers.

[rda]

I didn't see any of that, and it doesn't make sense.
If they make T8 3% better than T7, does that mean T18 will be 3% better than T17? It better be, otherwise they're being retarded.

T8 will be 3% better than T7, because the ilvl of T8 falls under the squish, but T18 will still be 20% better than T17, because presumably T17 is WoD and the ilvl of T17 is over the squish. That's the model.

When they run into the 32-bit limit again, they will up the ilvl boundary for the squish higher.

[Daerio]

It's Alpha for Christ sake, they've already said they're going to ensure solo content is not disrupted. If that means putting in Zone Wide buffs to raids, they'll do it. They've said this multiple times ...

They can keep saying that until they're blue in the face, (lolpun) but until they actually implement it correctly, words don't mean shit. I expect it'll take the entirety of WoD for them to iron out all the little issues with old content, if they bother to do it at all.

[Delekii]

Significant digits get taught around that age too.

Anyone complaining about numbers being "too big" is equally uneducated.

Knowing what 10000000 is doesn't make it as simple to discern as 1000. If Blizzard didn't have a reason why they thought the item squish was necessary, they wouldn't have done it. Business don't spend money unnecessarily. Ergo; there are reasons for the numbers to change, and there are no reasons for the numbers not to change.

Hahahaha, no. WoD numbers are going to range from Wrath-like to Cata-like. Big power jumps between tiers are an official design rather than the unintended side effect they were in Wrath. Quite the contrary to what you think, they're going to have to squish WoD content in 7.0 to make room for the next expansion. Now that they will have done it once, it will be easy for them to pull the same stunt every time.

And.... so what?

[rda]

They can keep saying that until they're blue in the face, (lolpun) but until they actually implement it correctly, words don't mean shit. I expect it'll take the entirety of WoD for them to iron out all the little issues with old content, if they bother to do it at all.

To be fair, they specified recently what exactly they are going to do (increase damage done / decrease damage taken by a player to / from a creature based on level difference), and that should generally work:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ces-Blue-Posts

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And.... so what?

Doing a squish every expansion is wasteful in terms of development and unpleasant in terms of gameplay (continuity). One squish per 3-4 expansions is one thing. A squish every expansion is something completely different. Numbers are important.

[Temp name]

Anyone complaining about seeing "lower" numbers is either less than 11 years old, or really, really stupid. There is no option C.

Or.. Like seeing big numbers. There's your option C.

Honestly, I don't really care if I do 1 million to the enemies 400k, or 1000 to the enemies 400.