Another update from Bashiok about WoD flying.

[Deleted]

What is with this nonsensical argument? At least try and make some sense.

The notion that all but the whiniest of players will quit if they can't fly from 91-100 is nonsensical. Or else they would have quit when going from having flight in TBC at 70, to not flying in Northrend till 77. Or from flying in Cataclysm in 85 and then not flying again till 90.

Furthermore, many games make a point of granting you a convenience ability in certain areas, then removing it in later areas to add an additional challenge.

[Pyromelter]

You can say whatever you want, clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, not just this game but any other.

This is a prime example of ad hominem in the discourse of a debate/discussion.

Therefore, because grounding the mounts does none of that, I believe it will be a great change that adopts the mentality of the 5 player hard heroics (more mechanics/more skill) without forcing you to base your game around others in order to progress.

On this, I agree. My assertion is that the loss of convenience will drive more people to unsubscribe, as time for most people on this planet is limited, and they can't be f'ed to fight through every little mob pack just to get to a daily quest or a world boss, or they can't be f'ed to waste the extra 5 minutes to ground mount out to wherever they are going. 5 minutes might not seem a lot, but 5 minutes here, 5 minutes there, all the sudden you've spent an hour riding around just to pick some flowers or mine some ore or do a daily quest for a needed reputation, it makes the grind of doing daily stuff that much worse.

The notion that all but the whiniest of players will quit if they can't fly from 91-100 is nonsensical. Or else they would have quit when going from having flight in TBC at 70, to not flying in Northrend till 77. Or from flying in Cataclysm in 85 and then not flying again till 90.

Furthermore, many games make a point of granting you a convenience ability in certain areas, then removing it in later areas to add an additional challenge.

Wow has lost, what, 1.5 million subs during mop? By all measures, the dungeons, scenarios, and raids are pretty damn good. I've had a lot of fun in them. A lot of subs probably dropped because of the ridiculous dailies grind at the launch of MoP (by the way - hardcore elitists were saying similar things then, that you should work for your rewards, why does everything have to be so ezmode, etc). That said, not flying after flying for 25 levels though is a much bigger headache than I think most people realize, especially at this point in the expac which is prime time for alt leveling. Instead of alt leveling, people are quite literally dropping subs from the game. I know quite a few people unsubbing and sitting out til at least 6.0, and probably 6.1, unless flying is reinstated.

The easiest thing for me to ever predict in an MMO was that Cata would be a massive failure at launch because of the change to 5man heroics. My prediction for flying is the same thing. It's so easy to see what will happen. People will get to cap, realize they can't fly, and many of them will be like "f this" and unsub. Or, they will be like many of my friends (and other posters here), and just not bother until 6.1 itself.

I will be very surprised if sub numbers are above 7m come 6.0. Seems like the easiest prediction to make, ever.

[Pann]

You do realize that I'd like to "expand" my "area"? :P

Logical. You wan't you fly everywhere, I wan't to keep everyone grounded to experience the content.

Two different opinions, both of them are being processed with a delay.

Yes? And? You can expand your area using ground mount just at a slower pace than using a flying mount seeing as you apparently enjoy using a ground mount more than a flying one I do not see how spending longer on an activity you enjoy is a bad point.

- - - Updated - - -

I should type with specific parts of my post bolded so you can't cherry pick things out of context for yourself.

"If GTA had cheats built into the game into their newest iteration, and they realize it's taking away from their game as a whole and decide to remove it, then its for the better of their game."

It's a hypothetical situation. So we don't need to argue how removing cheats would make GTA better, when that has nothing to do with anything I said. And, you're right, cheats are the same as flying. Players make a conscious decision to trivialize the game through cheats, as does making the choice to fly. In a single player game, it has worked out for Rockstar, but it seems Blizzard doesn't like you doing it in their mmo.

And no sir, better with regard to design is not an opinion. There's shitty design, and then there is good design. There's well designed raids, and poorly designed raids. Sure, you may ENJOY Trial of the Crusader more than Ulduar, but there's no question that the latter had better design in terms of art, layout, mechanics, etc.

Thus, ground mounts lead to a better quest/world/pvp design than does flying mounts. You have said absolutely nothing about how flying mounts are better than ground mounts in terms of that, other than it increases your enjoyment value. And if your "enjoyment value" drops too much, you'll go to a different game. Congratulations. Go ahead. I gave reasons and examples of how grounding the mounts will increase the depth of the world and add strategy to basic questing, but you have yet to provide any counter argument how flying does that or how it will make for a better or worse game because you're too busy citing to me how basic consumerism works that you learned from an intro to economics course.

Cheats are something players obviously use and enjoy or they would have been in all GTA games how are they taking away from the game?

But lets just run with your hypothetical situation and ignore that your post doesn't make much sense. I have used cheats in GTA games although I haven not felt the need to in GTA V because Rockstar have devised a system where if I fail a mission near the end I do not have to play through the whole of mission again to get to the part I failed on and if I continue to have difficulty with the mission I am given the option to skip to the next part. Rockstar have recognised that players will use cheats when frustrated and devised a system to minimises the need to use them if they had taken Blizzard's approach I would be stuck on a mission until I either complete it or quit the game altogether.

Rockstar also seem to acknowledge even though they have developed a system where I do not feel the need to use cheats that taking my option to use them would be a bad thing and have included them in GTA V. And although I have not used them yet I will at some point because having the best weapons and going on an unstoppable rampage is... well you know... fun! No, players make a conscious decision to use cheats because they enjoy using the cheat and Rockstar seem to realise that players enjoying their game no matter how they do it is more important.

What one person regards as shitty design maybe regarded as the best thing ever by another person you seem to believe that wasting time travelling to areas of enjoyment is great I do not.

Ground mounts do not lead to a better quest, world or pvp design they just make the rate at which players travel slower. You have not given reasons or examples of how ground mounts will increase the depth of the world and I am not sure how they will add strategy to basic questing, when they are pretty much devoid of any need to form a strategy more complex than run to mob, kill mob, collect loot, repeat.

I have given plenty of reasons as to why I think flying mounts are better than ground mounts but ultimately it all comes down to I enjoying flying more.

[yogzula]

Flying mounts ruined world PvP and I'm glad to see them restricted. Most people playing WoW today don't even know what the game is like without flying mounts. I understand people who like flying mounts and I understand why they like them, but a game needs to be designed with a certain direction and flying mounts detract from the experience blizzard intends for players to have in WoW. Maybe you want to get everywhere instantly and do exactly and only what you want to do without any delay, but games can't always be about instant gratification. There needs to be a journey that leads to and ties your experiences together. If you could just fly through the entirety of super mario brothers it wouldn't be a fun game. You'd get to the end of each level, get your reward, then go get peach and be done. Then you'd say "this game is boring there needs to be more end game content" when you have a shitload of content right in front of you that you choose to skip.

It's obviously not a completely fair comparison, but it's valid anyway. In an mmo you need people to be out and about the world doing things for the world to feel lively and interesting. If everyone is flying above the world then a lively interactive world will never be accomplished. There are plenty of other factors that go into creating a lively world other than grounding players and forcing them to actually be in it, but that's the first and most important thing that would need to be addressed. Actually having players in the world. One argument I hear often which is completely valid is that there isn't enough to do in the world to make players want to actually ride around doing things. I completely agree with that. I think blizzard needs to give people a reason to be out and about at all times and have interesting things that players care about scattered around in the world. Rare spawns are one thing, ore and herbs another, dailies another, but most of these things lead to people traveling in a formulated robotic pattern in particular areas.

Perhaps make events, a few for every zone on every continent. For instance maybe in the barrens the quillboar will be raiding the crossroads and you need to go assist them. Kill a certain amount or complete certain objectives to stop them and earn a reward for it. These events could all last roughly an hour and every hour a new event occurs in a different zone. The quillboars have been defeated but now the furblogs in winterspring are acting up! Go check it out, help with whatever is going on, collect your reward, etc. This would keep players going back to different zones all around the world. When players have a reason to be somewhere, PvP naturally follows. As someone who loves PvP and world PvP especially, I'm fully in favor of no flying mounts. I'd rather them be gone forever. But I really do understand why people like them. The solution that would benefit everyone is to give players a reason to be out and about in different places and avoid doing things that clutters players all in one small area. Add more rare resources that can randomly spawn in different parts of the world, things like that.

As far as ground mounts are concerned I don't see any reason not to increase their speed to 200% or even 300%. Maybe give ground minds a sprint ability that makes them run x% faster for x seconds. One solution to make travel more fun and interesting is to make travel more interactive.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Pann;23837893
Ground mounts do not lead to a better quest, world or pvp design they just make the rate at which players travel slower. [/QUOTE]

this is where you're wrong. Blizzard has phrased this in a dozen different ways that people just don't seem to be getting. It's not about how fast or slow you travel places. It's about the fact that you can completely disengage the world at a whim. You fly next to your objective, land, do your objective, then fly away. There's nothing dynamic about that. There's nothing unexpected to experience and there's nothing you have to pay attention to. It's just not interesting especially for an MMO that wants to have you involved in the world.

The way WoW has become is that stormwind city or orgrimmar is the game lobby. You sit there with your cute avatars and can access everything via a central location. You can craft, buy things, sell things, respec, instantly teleport to dungeons and PvP or wherever else you want to be. There's no world anymore. There's no real sense of immersion or scale without having to travel. For everything you can't instantly teleport to you can fly to which is basically just a slow version of teleporting. There's nothing different about it other than the fact that you have to wait a few minutes before you get to where you want to be.

[Deleted]

I like the idea of removing flying mounts for all relevant content. It can come back once the content is out of date.

[Hughes]

Tbh i don't see why there's room for debate. Blizzard made their decision, one i agree with, and now a lot people are throwing a titanic fit hoping blizz will see and buckle....

[Al Gorefiend]

I'm passionate this is the best course of action to take moving forward. Imagine Timeless Isle with flying mounts. Censurs fly directly on top of your character, kill you, mount up 5 seconds later to stalk again. Damn vultures, I tell you.

Only question I have is how will they explain druids suddenly losing bird form? Do they just sit there and strain themselves, make caw'ing noises and flap their arms to no avail?

[Pann]

this is where you're wrong. Blizzard has phrased this in a dozen different ways that people just don't seem to be getting. It's not about how fast or slow you travel places. It's about the fact that you can completely disengage the world at a whim. You fly next to your objective, land, do your objective, then fly away. There's nothing dynamic about that. There's nothing unexpected to experience and there's nothing you have to pay attention to. It's just not interesting especially for an MMO that wants to have you involved in the world.

The way WoW has become is that stormwind city or orgrimmar is the game lobby. You sit there with your cute avatars and can access everything via a central location. You can craft, buy things, sell things, respec, instantly teleport to dungeons and PvP or wherever else you want to be. There's no world anymore. There's no real sense of immersion or scale without having to travel. For everything you can't instantly teleport to you can fly to which is basically just a slow version of teleporting. There's nothing different about it other than the fact that you have to wait a few minutes before you get to where you want to be.

I can stealth and completely disengage from the world at a whim just at a slower pace than flying. Why is that not an issue? If Blizzard are so worried about how players engage with the world then why are abilities that allow players to avoid or remove themselves from danger at whim remaining untouched?

There is nothing dynamic about flying from one mob to another because the world and the mobs are pretty much static. How is flying to an objective any different from riding to it? Apart from being slower unless the mobs have a daze attack I can run through mobs all day long on my ground mount and never be in danger of dying as they will never catch me. Lets face there is nothing immersive about seeing fifteen mobs run past, ignoring you completely as the player they were chasing has gone out of range and reset them. There is nothing unexpected to experience not because of flying but because funnily enough there is nothing unexpected happening.

How will making travelling more time consuming change that players spend their time in cities waiting in queues? I am willing to bet that no-one has thought "if only it took longer to get places I wouldn't be sitting on this mailbox."

[yogzula]

I can stealth and completely disengage from the world at a whim just at a slower pace than flying. Why is that not an issue? If Blizzard are so worried about how players engage with the world then why are abilities that allow players to avoid or remove themselves from danger at whim remaining untouched?

There is nothing dynamic about flying from one mob to another because the world and the mobs are pretty much static. How is flying to an objective any different from riding to it? Apart from being slower unless the mobs have a daze attack I can run through mobs all day long on my ground mount and never be in danger of dying as they will never catch me. Lets face there is nothing immersive about seeing fifteen mobs run past, ignoring you completely as the player they were chasing has gone out of range and reset them. There is nothing unexpected to experience not because of flying but because funnily enough there is nothing unexpected happening.

How will making travelling more time consuming change that players spend their time in cities waiting in queues? I am willing to bet that no-one has thought "if only it took longer to get places I wouldn't be sitting on this mailbox."

The point is that if blizzard wants to get people to interact with the world they need to make it so that everyone is not just flying above it. I don't disagree that riding a land mount right now isn't fun or interesting. There's nothing all that interactive or exciting about it. Hopefully blizzard has a few ideas to make the environment more fun and interactive while traveling on the ground. Hopefully there is more to see and do. We don't know that yet. If not, then they should make riding on the ground fun. Not add flying mounts just because it isn't.

Again, if you are a PvE player i completely understand your disappointment. All I know is that without flying mounts world PvP will be so much better and I'm so excited for it.

[Pann]

The point is that if blizzard wants to get people to interact with the world they need to make it so that everyone is not just flying above it. I don't disagree that riding a land mount right now isn't fun or interesting. There's nothing all that interactive or exciting about it. Hopefully blizzard has a few ideas to make the environment more fun and interactive while traveling on the ground. Hopefully there is more to see and do. We don't know that yet. If not, then they should make riding on the ground fun. Not add flying mounts just because it isn't.

Again, if you are a PvE player i completely understand your disappointment. All I know is that without flying mounts world PvP will be so much better and I'm so excited for it.

If they want people to interact with the world they need to make the world more interesting limiting player's choices is not going make them go out into the world if all that greets them is the same boring stuff as before.

It will not make PVP better. If players want to avoid PVP by flying away from their foe it stands to reason that they will still want to avoid it when they cannot fly. If players have no means to escape they are not going to hang around whilst being repeatedly killed they will just log off I fail to see how forcing a player to not play the game is in anyway a benefit to the game and if this becomes a common occurrence there will be one day they will not log back on.

[yogzula]

If they want people to interact with the world they need to make the world more interesting limiting player's choices is not going make them go out into the world if all that greets them is the same boring stuff as before.

It will not make PVP better. If players want to avoid PVP by flying away from their foe it stands to reason that they will still want to avoid it when they cannot fly. If players have no means to escape they are not going to hang around whilst being repeatedly killed they will just log off I fail to see how forcing a player to not play the game is in anyway a benefit to the game and if this becomes a common occurrence there will be one day they will not log back on.

welcome to a PvP server that you chose to roll on. I really don't understand how anyone can complain about ganking after making a character on a PvP server. None the less, it WILL help world pvp. Flying mounts make it extremely easy to avoid combat. Land mounts don't. You can avoid it or at least try to, but you can get caught and killed. With a flying mount there is no chance at all that anything can happen to you as long as you stay in the air. There's a huge huge difference between both of those things.

PvP aside, the restriction of flying mounts benefits everyone and the game IF the world is interesting to travel through on a ground mount. We don't know if it will be yet. Considering blizzard intentionally made a choice to restrict players from flying while fully knowing it would enrage a lot of people, I think it's safe to assume they have plans to make the land mount experience fun in a way it may have been lacking in vanilla. Which, mind you, I didn't think was bad at all. Ground mounts in vanilla didn't feel boring or tedious to travel with. I feel like most of the people complaining just doesn't remember vanilla or didn't play back then.

We know there are going to be large fel reaver like creatures like in hellfire peninsula, so that should be interesting. Those were fun to get chased by. The zone also won't be quite as big so it won't feel like such a chore to get across it. BC was designed with flying in mind, this xpac won't be.

[Deleted]

Only question I have is how will they explain druids suddenly losing bird form? Do they just sit there and strain themselves, make caw'ing noises and flap their arms to no avail?

Makes as much sense at not allowing me to use flight form in Silvermoon, all dungeons, all raids, all indoor areas, Timeless Isle, old Wintergrasp, Wintergrasp during battles, all battlegrounds...
Gameplay and story segregation.

- - - Updated - - -

I can stealth and completely disengage from the world at a whim just at a slower pace than flying. Why is that not an issue? [/I]

Even mobs that don't have stealth detection can agro the player if they get close enough. Even more so if its something like a Fel Reaver with a huge hitbox and level advantage over typical questing players in the zone. And stealth comes with the hefty disadvantage of reduced movement speed compared to a flying mount. Speed vs safety IS an interesting tradeoff.

[Pann]

welcome to a PvP server that you chose to roll on. I really don't understand how anyone can complain about ganking after making a character on a PvP server. None the less, it WILL help world pvp. Flying mounts make it extremely easy to avoid combat. Land mounts don't. You can avoid it or at least try to, but you can get caught and killed. With a flying mount there is no chance at all that anything can happen to you as long as you stay in the air. There's a huge huge difference between both of those things.

PvP aside, the restriction of flying mounts benefits everyone and the game IF the world is interesting to travel through on a ground mount. We don't know if it will be yet. Considering blizzard intentionally made a choice to restrict players from flying while fully knowing it would enrage a lot of people, I think it's safe to assume they have plans to make the land mount experience fun in a way it may have been lacking in vanilla. Which, mind you, I didn't think was bad at all. Ground mounts in vanilla didn't feel boring or tedious to travel with. I feel like most of the people complaining just doesn't remember vanilla or didn't play back then.

We know there are going to be large fel reaver like creatures like in hellfire peninsula, so that should be interesting. Those were fun to get chased by. The zone also won't be quite as big so it won't feel like such a chore to get across it. BC was designed with flying in mind, this xpac won't be.

World PVP has been pretty much dead since the introduction of Battlegrounds. Players roll on PVP servers for many different reasons and I am sure that the majority of players are fine with being ganked what they are not fine with is being repeated killed by the same enemy as he spams emotes. It is not fun to spend your time running back to your corpse only to find yourself back at the graveyard as soon as you click resurrect.

We have had no flying throughout most of the levelling process apart from Cata yet we all ever hear is that world PVP is dead if no flying is going to solve this then why has it not done so already? Until the huge faction imbalances are fixed on PVP servers there is no hope of addressing the world PVP issues and no flying is not even a band-aid fix.

If they have such wonderful plans why have they not mentioned them? This is a hot and divisive topic that has not only been raging here but on the official forums for days now why not end the discussion by showing us what they have planned?

Vanilla was seven years ago what was interesting then is not necessarily so now.

Fel Reavers might been interesting the first time you encountered them but they were easy to avoid on both foot and a ground mount.

I really do not think that creating smaller zones to play in because travelling across them is a chore is something that we as players should be supporting.

[Axxy]

Flying mounts ruined world PvP and I'm glad to see them restricted. Most people playing WoW today don't even know what the game is like without flying mounts. I understand people who like flying mounts and I understand why they like them, but a game needs to be designed with a certain direction and flying mounts detract from the experience blizzard intends for players to have in WoW. Maybe you want to get everywhere instantly and do exactly and only what you want to do without any delay, but games can't always be about instant gratification. There needs to be a journey that leads to and ties your experiences together. If you could just fly through the entirety of super mario brothers it wouldn't be a fun game. You'd get to the end of each level, get your reward, then go get peach and be done. Then you'd say "this game is boring there needs to be more end game content" when you have a shitload of content right in front of you that you choose to skip.

It's obviously not a completely fair comparison, but it's valid anyway. In an mmo you need people to be out and about the world doing things for the world to feel lively and interesting. If everyone is flying above the world then a lively interactive world will never be accomplished. There are plenty of other factors that go into creating a lively world other than grounding players and forcing them to actually be in it, but that's the first and most important thing that would need to be addressed. Actually having players in the world. One argument I hear often which is completely valid is that there isn't enough to do in the world to make players want to actually ride around doing things. I completely agree with that. I think blizzard needs to give people a reason to be out and about at all times and have interesting things that players care about scattered around in the world. Rare spawns are one thing, ore and herbs another, dailies another, but most of these things lead to people traveling in a formulated robotic pattern in particular areas.

Perhaps make events, a few for every zone on every continent. For instance maybe in the barrens the quillboar will be raiding the crossroads and you need to go assist them. Kill a certain amount or complete certain objectives to stop them and earn a reward for it. These events could all last roughly an hour and every hour a new event occurs in a different zone. The quillboars have been defeated but now the furblogs in winterspring are acting up! Go check it out, help with whatever is going on, collect your reward, etc. This would keep players going back to different zones all around the world. When players have a reason to be somewhere, PvP naturally follows. As someone who loves PvP and world PvP especially, I'm fully in favor of no flying mounts. I'd rather them be gone forever. But I really do understand why people like them. The solution that would benefit everyone is to give players a reason to be out and about in different places and avoid doing things that clutters players all in one small area. Add more rare resources that can randomly spawn in different parts of the world, things like that.

As far as ground mounts are concerned I don't see any reason not to increase their speed to 200% or even 300%. Maybe give ground minds a sprint ability that makes them run x% faster for x seconds. One solution to make travel more fun and interesting is to make travel more interactive.

Flying mounts detract from the experience in your opinion, but not in others opinion. Flying doesn't get you anywhere instantly, maybe a few seconds quicker than ground mounts. You can literally drop on the mob avoiding aggro'ing loads of mobs nearby from flight, but some people prefer that than fighting no challenge mobs on the way in and on the way out, but that's their preference.

Questing is irrelevant to players out in the world, except on the few pvp servers left that actually still have some balance between horde/alliance factions as most servers seem to be one-sided either for horde or alliance. As there are no hard quests or group quests any more, questing is still a single player part of the game, unless WoD re-introduces some challenge back into quests

I still think most people who object are not against no-flying while levelling up, but once they hit level 100 and have done all the quests and explored all the areas if possible during the first week, that they see no reason why flying shouldn't be available at that point rather than whenever the first patch gets released.

[Deleted]

welcome to a PvP server that you chose to roll on.

I just want to inform you that half of us live on PvE servers.
And because of that , the "rebirth of world PvP" sound like a non issue to us .
And , according to your opinion, they remove our flying for a non issue .

How are you going to make me type /pvp enter ?
You are right , you can't.

[Pann]

Even mobs that don't have stealth detection can agro the player if they get close enough. Even more so if its something like a Fel Reaver with a huge hitbox and level advantage over typical questing players in the zone. And stealth comes with the hefty disadvantage of reduced movement speed compared to a flying mount. Speed vs safety IS an interesting tradeoff.

I can aggro mobs on my flying mount if I fly close enough to them and seeing as both stealth classes have a sprint they can if need be escape upon detection just like anyone on a flying mount.

So I can be allowed to have the ability to avoid and apparently trivialise the world but only if I do it slowly?

[Dooney]

I can aggro mobs on my flying mount if I fly close enough to them and seeing as both stealth classes have a sprint they can if need be escape upon detection just like anyone on a flying mount. So I can be allowed to have the ability to avoid and apparently trivialise the world but only if I do it slowly?

Warriors need stealth also. Why do we have to fight through EVERYTHING. Can't fly, let me sneak in like everyone else.

[Deleted]

I still think most people who object are not against no-flying while levelling up, but once they hit level 100 and have done all the quests and explored all the areas if possible during the first week, that they see no reason why flying shouldn't be available at that point rather than whenever the first patch gets released.

Given their comments about end game content being based around the Timeless Isle only with more story, I would hazard a guess that the zones don't become obsolete at max level, and will continue to have relevant content in them until 6.1.

[yogzula]

World PVP has been pretty much dead since the introduction of Battlegrounds. Players roll on PVP servers for many different reasons and I am sure that the majority of players are fine with being ganked what they are not fine with is being repeated killed by the same enemy as he spams emotes. It is not fun to spend your time running back to your corpse only to find yourself back at the graveyard as soon as you click resurrect.

We have had no flying throughout most of the levelling process apart from Cata yet we all ever hear is that world PVP is dead if no flying is going to solve this then why has it not done so already? Until the huge faction imbalances are fixed on PVP servers there is no hope of addressing the world PVP issues and no flying is not even a band-aid fix.

If they have such wonderful plans why have they not mentioned them? This is a hot and divisive topic that has not only been raging here but on the official forums for days now why not end the discussion by showing us what they have planned?

Vanilla was seven years ago what was interesting then is not necessarily so now.

Fel Reavers might been interesting the first time you encountered them but they were easy to avoid on both foot and a ground mount.

I really do not think that creating smaller zones to play in because travelling across them is a chore is something that we as players should be supporting.

World PvP has not been dead since the introduction of battlegrounds. I don't know why I hear people who insist that. Are you talking about Tarren Mill vs. South Shore battles? Those were garbage anyway. My friends and I could go anywhere on our medium population server and gank and get some PvP going just about anywhere. BRM was always popping, silithus when the event was around, EPL to gank farmers, felwood to catch people farming silk or essences or whipper roots / NDB. Un'goro often had people farming essences. World PvP is anywhere that people farm things. If you looked for it, it wasn't hard to find.

You can gank people now, but it doesn't create this sense of urgency like it did before. Before you could be corpse camped and when you rezzed you were in danger of getting caught again. The zones were smaller, so if you wanted to keep farming you had to handle the person killing you. Now people will just get on their flying mount and obnoxiously hover above you after you kill them knowing full well that you can't do anything to them. If I had a way to dismount flyers (that didn't have a cast time, 40yd range, 15 min cd) i wouldn't mind flying mounts as much with pvp in mind.

I remember when I leveled without flying mounts enabled I got into a lot of fights. The only reason you'd think world PvP is dead is if you aren't attacking anyone because you'd rather quest.

[healzforu]

First off alot of people do not seem to read on these forums, people complaining about flying are not complaining about not flying till 100 but after. We have had flying since forever and once you hit 100, you should have the option to fly not have to wait months for it. All it is on land is time consuming and people do not want that, if you people that "prefer" not flying and prefer ground mounts and like taking your time, then act like it's 1-19 and just walk everywhere. Many people do not have tons of time and can sit and play the game all day long, many people are not teenagers. Flying makes things much quicker, especially, herbing and mining.

As for pvp, seriously, who the hell cares about pvp anyhow, we all know there is a very low percent of players that do heroic raids correct? Well im pretty sure there are even lower players that give a crap about world pvp, it's been dead for years, get over it people, pvp is garbage, this game is highly based on pve. Stop using arguments that oh pvp will come to life again with no flying, please, just stop it! That is a garbage argument, When an expansion hits, u honestly think people want to deal with "world pvp"? Hell no!, They want to hurry and get to max level and start doing max level things.

I personally would not care if like always for the most part, you level to 100 and then get to fly, but to not be able to fly for months is gonna drive alot of players away, especially those that dont like to raid. This is a very bad move on blizz's part and i can honestly see a hell of alot of people unsubbing.