"Core spot" "Core team"

[Tauftamir]

@alturic

The points you commented on were rhetorical questions. I simply wanted to illustrate why a 10 man raid would not prefer to have exactly 10 people.
The reasons may be obvious to you or I, but some of the responses in the thread suggest the reasons might not be obvious to other posters.

@Zandalis

You don't talk about expectations of attendance on wowprogress, or on the "about us" page, or the application form of your website.
The only reference is to timekeeping is:

"4) You will be on time for all raids."

If you value people for both social reasons and raiding reasons, and a core philosophy of the guild is that you are flexible enough that people can miss a raid if they want to go hiking in the mountains for the weekend, or if an emergency comes up, you should tell people that, it should be on your guild page.

The answer to your OP then simply becomes that you should not recruit anyone who wants a "core spot" or requests to be in every raid because what they want to get out of raiding is already different to the behaviour and attitude of your guild.

Do you think a person like this is likely to understand why they, as a 100% attender, have to sit for someone who will miss a raid to go hiking, simply because you've known them since TBC? You would effectively be creating a problem just by recruiting them.

If your guild is flexible about attendance, and you believe that to be a good thing, this should be a unique selling point as to why someone in the same position as your raiders would want to apply to your guild.
If this was clear at the outside, you probably wouldn't get the kind of people who want a "core spot" applying in the first place.

TLDR: You should be trying to attract people who have a similar attitude to the game as you and your existing raiders if you want them to be a good social fit for the team. Don't bother with people who want something different.

PS: some of your posts seem quite aggressive. Just because someone else is prepared to enforce 100% attendance, doesn't mean they are living in a "bubble" and can't appreciate how the "real world" works. It's a decision they've made for their Guild. That doesn't make it wrong, it just makes the circumstances different.

[Zandalis]

@alturic

The points you commented on were rhetorical questions. I simply wanted to illustrate why a 10 man raid would not prefer to have exactly 10 people.
The reasons may be obvious to you or I, but some of the responses in the thread suggest the reasons might not be obvious to other posters.

@Zandalis

You don't talk about expectations of attendance on wowprogress, or on the "about us" page, or the application form of your website.
The only reference is to timekeeping is:

"4) You will be on time for all raids."

If you value people for both social reasons and raiding reasons, and a core philosophy of the guild is that you are flexible enough that people can miss a raid if they want to go hiking in the mountains for the weekend, or if an emergency comes up, you should tell people that, it should be on your guild page.

The answer to your OP then simply becomes that you should not recruit anyone who wants a "core spot" or requests to be in every raid because what they want to get out of raiding is already different to the behaviour and attitude of your guild.

Do you think a person like this is likely to understand why they, as a 100% attender, have to sit for someone who will miss a raid to go hiking, simply because you've known them since TBC? You would effectively be creating a problem just by recruiting them.

If your guild is flexible about attendance, and you believe that to be a good thing, this should be a unique selling point as to why someone in the same position as your raiders would want to apply to your guild.
If this was clear at the outside, you probably wouldn't get the kind of people who want a "core spot" applying in the first place.

TLDR: You should be trying to attract people who have a similar attitude to the game as you and your existing raiders if you want them to be a good social fit for the team. Don't bother with people who want something different.

PS: some of your posts seem quite aggressive. Just because someone else is prepared to enforce 100% attendance, doesn't mean they are living in a "bubble" and can't appreciate how the "real world" works. It's a decision they've made for their Guild. That doesn't make it wrong, it just makes the circumstances different.

This is the best post of the thread, and I thank you for writing it.

As for me being aggressive in my responses, yes, it ends up at that when most of the thread is derailed into a discussion on wether or not we have a bench, I was discussing this thread with my raiders AND those who were on vent but not in the raid tonight, and they laughed it off as ridicolous.

You've spotted something that is missing from our website and everywhere else that I believed was clear as the day, and that has to be changed. If that information is lacking then we need to fix it. Also, we have to rework that about page, as we have evolved slightly from the original idea of what this was going to be.

As far as recruitment goes, my problem is not that I am going for unrealistic targets, we have always focused on bringing in people we know will fit us well, and that's why I try to inform every potential recruit in advance what we are and what we are not. I would not want anyone to transfer to our server to trial with us and fail, and I tell them this. The problem I do have is that recruits are so far between and that the only reponses we get are exactly this; give me my pre-entitled core raiding spot.

[Jaceo]

We have gone from working your way into a "core" raiding spot to people expecting a "core" raid spot just for joining the guild and being the class/role you are looking for. Core is just another term thrown around like "casual" and is interpreted differently from player to player.

When I was involved with recruitment and asked by an applicant will I get a trial my response was, you will get a raid spot if you show up consistently, prepared and perform! These are the basic traits you need from your raiders, if an applicant can’t agree to this then are they really going to be an asset to your team?

In regards to the derailed subject of bench sizes etc, sorry I can’t help myself because I find it funny. Like many similar subjects ie best raid comp, raid hours per week etc it depends on your guild. If you have 10 players who prioritise raiding in their lives and can play an alt just as good as their main your bench would be minimal or maybe non-existent. If you have raiders who put everything else first then you will need a bench to cover this. There is no correct bench size for 10/25m!

[Sinthetik]

I run a 25 man with a roster of 38. Yes...38. I use a chart to and epgp to ensure rotations happen on a fair basis. Yes we do have a "core" of roughly 15 or so that are generally in for 85% of all kills. The last 10 are rotated between recruits and our somewhat less progressed/geared raiders. I don't have many complaints about boss face time, but you have to be on top of things. Have conversations with your raiders, especially those who tend to ride the pine more often. Some people are surprisingly content with just being in for farm. Having a stable home is more important to them then being in for every boss every day. As players improve and natural attrition happens, raiders can easily move from the bench to the core quite fluidly. Know your raiders. Talk to them. This is the most important thing. This also gives alot of flexibility in regards to IRL situations and getting the optimal comps for kills.

[Mormolyce]

They're afraid of being benched. Not much you can do, some people will insist they never be benched, even ones who don't have perfect attendance.

[Sliippy]

After reading through this I have come to the conclusion that this guy doesn't understand the terms he's using. Bench and sit out are the same in WoW raiding culture. If you're not online and you were supposed to be that's not the bench that's absence and really shouldn't be tolerated. But if you specify before hand that you will sit someone all night and they say oh should I not log in. They're being benched.

And you can call your entire raid team your core if you like. Or just your raid team. If you have a secondary raid team or a secondary raid and you're recruiting for that you'd have to specify two raids and blah blah blah.

[gynshon]

If you're not a top tier guild, then this doesn't matter. Benches and rosters that exceed the raid size you compete in are arguably worthless for casual guilds.

I disagree. Benches are critical for casual guilds because those are the ones that are usually missing a person here and there on raid nights.

OP: Like you, we intend to keep a 12-13 roster for a 10m guild that raids 9 hours/week. We have literally had the worst start of a tier I have ever seen in my 14+ years of playing MMO's. Of a 10m guild, we have literally replaced 14 people total this tier alone. 8 have quit wow entirely, the other 6 were misc bads or dbags.

How we do it, is swap people in and out as needed for gear, class, fight mechanics etc and everyone sits from the GM on down. We don't have "core" spots except our 2 tanks since they are the only 2 on roster.

We finally moved off a low pop server that we couldn't recruit to, so hopefully it will improve for us.

[eschatological]

I don't think "bench" and being sat for a fight are the same terms at all.

In my first heroic 10 man, at the start of Cataclysm, I was the "bench" for a heroic 10 man. I only raided if there was only 9 players. A bench is a permanent "smash-glass-in-case-of-emergency" type player. Bench players have lower expectations of attendence on them, imo.

Being sat on a progress fight is something else entirely. I was sat on 10H Blackhorn in H-DS for progression (as a hunter) so our resto druid could go boomkin to DoT up the drakes on either side of the boat, as early kills of H-Blackhorn on 10 man involved pretty intense DoT cleaves (we used an spriest/fire mage/boomkin/warlock). I didn't consider myself "on the bench," I considered myself as not the best option for progression on the fight.

And on farm, you just rotate in who needs gear off the boss and is higher on DKP. That system got me in for more fights than I really wanted, seeing as I was the only agility mail user in the raid. And honestly, y'all seem like you've never done heroic modes at the point where they're on farm. When we were selling H-Ragnaros mounts, we would *FIGHT* to sit out. We would literally duel, and whoever *WON* the duel got to sit out. Same with every farm content whenever.

[Barnabas]

As a guild master the last 5 years of a largely successful guild for what our goals are, I find it harder and harder to recruit players these days. Obviously, there is the problem of less raiders and more players skipping normal/heroic entirely because of LFR/Flex, but this is not the topic of this thread, so leave that one.

I want to discuss what I meet in most players we end up talking to about joining: "Core spot".

What is the obsession players have with this? We don't have a core spot, nor do we have a bench. We have a raid roster of 14 players for a 10 man team. It goes without saying that if you have 14 players, not everyone will be raiding every raid. Why is this a problem for so many players? Do every other guild simply have 10 players and they show up every raid? I can't believe that. Do they all have 10 raiders, and then another 5 that they use only when some of the first 10 are missing?

I just don't understand why people are so afraid when I say that during farming we swap players in and out for bosses they need and that in progression we swap much less, but everyone has to expect to sit out now and then. Even myself, all officers, noone is excluded from this.

We raid 2 nights per week, 6 hours in total. We progress deep into heroic every tier, if not clearing it.

Why such a fear of not having a "core spot"?

Because a lot of people are selfish. If they need loot or not they still want to raid. The act of letting someone else come in for a boss turns them into a huge drama queen because that is their "spot" in the raid. Just tell people that act like that to go back to LFR.

[Deleted]

We have 10 raiders who all have at least a 95% attendance (it's only unavoidable RL stuff like work etc that causes a member to miss a night) and ONE officer who can fill in as a healer if we ever need him but so far that's not happened.

We are lucky enough to have a couple of well geared "socials" in the guild who can fill a dps spot if need be.

[jojofeelgood]

Basically OP stop lying to yourself and recruits. In fact stop recruiting altogether if your current roster has reliable attendance. To tell a potential recruit that you don't have a bench in w/ 14 ppl for a 10 man? straight up lying to their face. Some people play the game to raid. Some players, sometimes good players, don't want to ride bench for one of your crap members that you keep in just because he's been there since the guild started or whatever.

Also I forget if you're heroic or normal mode, but if heroic it's totally irrelevant. You should be looking to merge if thats the case and start doing 25 man in prep for WoD.

[Kakera]

If you have 14 players for a 10 man guild you are doing it very, very wrong. No wonder there's drama and bullshit.

[Sonnillon]

If you have 14 players for a 10 man guild you are doing it very, very wrong. No wonder there's drama and bullshit.

Why is it wrong?

We have 4 healers, 2 tanks, 8 DPS. That is total of 14 raiders. We 2 heal most fights. All of our raiders have no issue (most of the time) to sit out for someone. Sure... For progression we go with absolute best of the best, but for anything else all who signs will get rotated in.

Yes, we do have a bench. People who want 100% raid spot do not join the guild. Fair 'nuf.

Yes, all who join must be willing to sit out and are made aware of that.

Do we have QQ - not so much, as all share and willing to let the next guy raid.

[willemh]

The way I go in my guild is:

1) If you're 100% active, you can expect a 100% spot on progression fights (on farm we gear up people instead of taking you just for the lols)
2) If you're not 100% active you simply cannot expect a 100% spot in raids. Why? Because we need another person to step in for you on the days you arn't here and he deserves raid time just as much as you do.

If he still wants a 100% spot even if he isnt 100% active, he basically tell you and the rest of the raiders this: Raid when I'm here, and when I'm not here just call the raid, because he doesnt allow you and your raid team to find a proper replacement for him and give that replacement a fair shot at raiding aswell. This isnt teamplay and these type of players really aren't what you're looking for.

And trust me, nothing is worse then calling a raid, you can progress far better with a stable group, even if that stable group includes some replacements that arn't yet on par with some of the other raiders, they will be over time. I have been leading a semi-hardcore 25man raiding guild since TBC, and to be very honest with you, our progress never stagnated because we hit a 'wall'. Progress only stopped the moment we started to lack players and had to call raids. So over time my focus changed from trying to create the 'perfect goup' to creating a stable playerbase. As long as you can keep your raids going, as long as you can keep gathering upgrades, as long as content gets easier over time you WILL keep progressing with a stable playerbase. This is your #1 priority.

[Zogarth]

Dunno if I am just weird but I have always joined a raiding guild to raid. And I always have raided at every raid there was in nearly every guild, being part of the "core team" as i normally topped dps (10-man) or was at least in top 3 (25-man). But I have also tried to be in a guild where i got benched. And getting benched is one of the worst feelings for a dedicated raider. You fight hard to do a lot of dps, you theory-craft to improve yourself, you make sure you remember every detail about every boss to perform as good as you humanly can. Only to get benched. And what is the reason to get benched one must think. Do i not do enough dps? Do i take too much damage? What did I do wrong? No explanation of how your system works can completely remove all wondering one can have after getting benched.'

When I was a raidleader back in TBC, Wrath, and Cata, i always worked with the "regular group" of often 8-9 people for 10-man. These were the same every raid. This was the core. The last one to 2 spots was filled by the ones that could not raid every night, but could perhaps come to every second. So those 2 could rotate, and that made it work perfectly fine. For 25-man our "core" consisted of around 20 people. The last 5 were filled by pretty much just random members or trials that we were constantly testing.

I would advice for you to do the same. Have a "core team" and a "standby team". The core team is the guys that are extremely good and wanna raid every chance they get. And as you only raid 2 nights a week, getting this core should be very easy. The standby team can then be the people fully realizing that they are standby. This guild be the family man that can only come for a raid maybe every second or third raid.

[Fluttershy]

Core spot is when you never get subbed out unless the fight literally hates your class or you don't need gear for it.

If you're good at this game(and obv ranged dps) you will generally have a core spot at the expense of melee and "that guy who isn't as good as the rest but still good enough to keep in case people don't show up", after a few weeks of consistent performance.

[Sul]

I use the same 10 players each week where ever possible. By the end of last expansion there were only two of them who couldn't fill at least two roles ( hunter and lock ) the rest could either dps/tank dps/heal , tank/ heal or do all 3 . that way if one of us couldn't make it we just had to add a dps or often we would 9 man it if no other guildie was on .

This expansion we haven't been able to get a regular team and haven't raided near as much ( we only have 2 members of our DS team still playing for various reasons )

[kamuimac]

u cant tell this to yourself that you rotate eveyrbody but truth is even in 10 HC there is nearly always at least 2-3 people who never get rotated (and no siting out when they have something more fun irl to do then raid is does not count as being rotated cause they know that if their plans would suddenlychange and they would log in into game they would be taken regardles if they declined raid for set evening) then there is few who are usually take in and then those last few "Extra" people who get rotated all the time - i dont belive in miracles of whole team being rotated sincei have yet to see such team in wow -_- people are looking for "Core " spot because its waste of time for them to sit out on bench - if their guild is not going for server/world ranks it doesnt matter for them whther they gonan spend night wiping or progress boss - they log in to game to raid and thats hwat they look for when they look for guild - a guild where whenever they log in to raid they will get into raid.

[khalltusk]

With the way all raids aside mythic will be using flex tech this should no longer be an issue for guilds unless they are only doing the very cutting edge content. Let the good times roll

[RuneeBH]

People want to raid and kill bosses. What if they have a core spot in a slightly less progressed guild, or a non-core spot in a more progressed guild? Then, they have to make a decision. I feel like its their right to ask. Why would someone join a guild expecting to play on their char and then end up sitting in Shrine for 2 hours a night? Its like going to a job interview and not asking how much the pay is.