When WoD launches with no flying and nothing changes, will you admit being wrong?

[Louis CK]

TI is crap. I finished everything in an hour a day for 18 days. TI was better because I had to work for the rep and the valor to get the valor gear. Then they said they didn't want people getting gear in lfr and not using it because Valor gear was better. Then they put eternal burdens in the game which are the same as the valor gear that replaced lfr gear in the past but this time you can get it from killing a frog instead of building up rep for it for weeks. End game content should not last just 18 days when there are 6-9 months until the next expansion. I only go to timeless for Ordos on tuesdays and then I am done with it.

But if the design is to be dynamic like TI and you need to be ground based to control how we interact with the dynamic content then why does it not need to be controlled 2 months later? Still haven't answered the question. Combat swoop ganking? Why is it okay to reinstall swoop ganking 2 months later? Bigger world? Why is it okay to make the world seem smaller 2 months later? More immersion? Why is it okay to not be immersed 2 months later? More danger? Why is it okay to have less danger 2 months later? Why 2 months? Why not 6 months? Or ever? The reason is fine, the arbitrary time limit is not.

Your personal distaste for the dynamic TI-esque setup makes no difference, because there are many who enjoy it, and having an entire continent built on that "idea" seems really cool for many. In much the same way my distaste for LFR makes no difference, because many enjoy it. So to suggest that the TI-esque model shouldn't happen because you think it's stupid is as dumb as suggesting the removal of LFR because I think it's stupid.

Also, do you have a link to the "2 month" thing? From what I've seen, it's 6.1, not an arbitrary time limit. It will also be accompanied by a quest line to explain all these things you want to hear.

Bashiok gave a reason for the grounding, not a reason why the grounding is lifted 2 months later. If its suppose to make something better then why 2 months later does it not need to be better? Youcan continue to spin your wheels and dig in without answering the question but it won't change the fact that I don't consider riding a ground mount some where as actual content or fun. I don't go to amusement parks to remember the drive there, I go to ride rollercoasters and eat cotton candy. The ride there sucks. I'm not interested at all in the ride there or standing in the line to buy my entry ticket.

Again, I've already responded to this, but the reason for "getting it back" in 6.1 or "2 months" as you say is a common sense answer: "Because by that time, people will have had the time to experience the max level world content as intended."

[Arteous]

And they can't be attacked and you can alt tab out to netflix or go take a poop in complete safety without ever seeing an inch of what the world looks like. So much for immersion and danger. At least on a flight mount I have to interact with it and I have been attacked by birds over half hill.

This made me think .. why didn't Grom and thrall both get on their flying mounts and fly circles over mannoroth taunting him because he couldn't fly ?

Heck arthas as litch king could of avoided the whole gauntlet on his way to attack silvermoon he could of just flown over the forrest and gotten to the end.

what other things in WC3 would of been ruined if hero units could fly?

[rasako]

GW2 allows you to instantly warp to about 12+ different points (about 3 times as many FPs as there are per WoW zone) at any time.

And yet people explore GW2s game because there's a reason to, because it's well designed, because the mobs aren't tedious fucking annoyances like they are in WoW. Oh, and you don't run at the pace of a fucking sloth. So there's that too.

People like me don't like travelling in WoW because it's *tedious*. There's no enjoyment to be had from it for me, so the less of it I have to do the better. All stopping me flying is going to accomplish is that I will not move from the city unless I absolutely have to. You can't force people to explore your world if they don't want to.

I've actually found both guild wars one and 2 to move much slower and feel more clunky in comparison to WoW, but I will admit that they do give you a reason to explore.

[Louis CK]

You think they are reasonable arguments with a good basis, I find them copy-pasted forum and MMO-C garbage arguments that are debunked daily here.



So I don't really think it's much of a help, because I don't think I need a valid argument against something that is done without a logical reason in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -




"I don't like it" is what was the core of just about any anti-flying argument? And just because you don't think they were debunked does not mean you're right. A lot of people use the basic spit'n'recycle spamguments on the forums daily, and people reply with valid counter-arguments daily. The fact that you say there has been no valid counter-argument says more about you than it does me.



Mainly that you're probably not really open to considering them at all, and that you'll likely dismiss them on the spot with some hyperbole or some slippery slope fallacies.

I'm not the one you should be spilling your pseudo-arguments to, because I don't care one way or the other, and even if I did it wouldn't get you flying pre 6.1.

Even still, nothing that you're saying gives any legitimate debate to their reasoning. And with each post you make, you have less and less of an argument. I'm not sure if your "nuh uh, you're dumb" thing is just to troll me or what, but either way it's becoming clear you don't, and won't, have a valid argument, nor do you have any desire to discuss the topic apart from "nuh uh, you're wrong." So, I'm going to leave this be with you at this point.

Again, hopefully for your sake, someone with some level of intelligence and basic objective reasoning will come up with an argument for you. As of now, no such argument exists that makes more sense than their reasoning on the matter.

[stumpy]

Well, I think we can all agree that whining like a little bitch about everything is pretty much ingrained in Internet gaming culture nowadays. So you're right, that's unlikely to change.

[Yarathir]

I'm not the one you should be spilling your pseudo-arguments to, because I don't care one way or the other, and even if I did it wouldn't get you flying pre 6.1.

Even still, nothing that you're saying gives any legitimate debate to their reasoning. And with each post you make, you have less and less of an argument. I'm not sure if your "nuh uh, you're dumb" thing is just to troll me or what, but either way it's becoming clear you don't, and won't, have a valid argument, nor do you have any desire to discuss the topic apart from "nuh uh, you're wrong." So, I'm going to leave this be with you at this point.

Again, hopefully for your sake, someone with some level of intelligence and basic objective reasoning will come up with an argument for you. As of now, no such argument exists that makes more sense than their reasoning on the matter.

Ahh, I see you're cracking out the ad hominems. Ayup! Time to stop paying attention to you. Have a good day, though. Even though I'm not fond of the way you're telling people that they add nothing while hypocritically adding nothing yourself. People are just flawed, I guess, and I'll have to group that in to one of the flaws that makes the human species so intriguing, beautiful and frustrating at the same time.

[Heiros]

Rly... I don't care about ground or flying mounts...

[Velnora]

GW2 allows you to instantly warp to about 12+ different points (about 3 times as many FPs as there are per WoW zone) at any time.

And yet people explore GW2's world because there's a reason to, because it's well designed, because the mobs aren't tedious fucking annoyances like they are in WoW. Oh, and you don't run at the pace of a fucking sloth. So there's that too.

People like me don't like travelling in WoW because it's *tedious*. There's no enjoyment to be had from it for me, so the less of it I have to do the better. All stopping me flying is going to accomplish is that I will not move from the city unless I absolutely have to. You can't force people to explore your world if they don't want to.

Which is why Blizz is giving a reason to explore by adding *treasures* to the world. That also makes me a little depressed if lack of flying will make you stand in a city the entire time.

[Lothaeryn]

Hey guys for 6.0 we are going to have to control the way you interact with the game to give you a better gaming experience. 2 months later of course we don't care how you interact with your environment so you can have flying back. I know, I know it sounds like an arbitrary punishment for buying and playing the game at launch but the reason we are doing this is to arbitrarily punish you for buying and playing the game at launch even though EQII and wildstar will be out at the same time.

And praytell then, will EQN and Wildstar have flying in the game? Is that a no? Gee, i wonder why. I mean, Blizzard did it and it was successful, so why is it that no other mmo that has come out in the last three years? I mean i am more than sure they could do it. Its VERY SUCCESSFUL in WoW, so i dont see why no one else tries? Even though everyone who tried it liked it in WoW.

Maybe its because.... GASP! It would make their games look small from above, or worse, make all their effort in making this expanding world that is frought with danger all for naught since everyone can fly to their destination without a care in the world. Being able to access places no mortal ever could, and places even the developers havent gotten ready for payers to explore.

Maybe its because the devs think that other players may find a way to exploit flying to take advantage of other players caught unaware and kill them without a chance to see them coming and defend themselves. I mean, those pesky players shoukd have had their cameras aimed towards the sky to make sure nothing was coming right? Completely barring any threat in front of them while fighting.

Do you know why Tolkien never had the eagles take gandalf and friends to Erebor in the Hobbit? Why he never had the eagles take him a second time with the fellowship to Mordor to destroy the ring? Its because it woukd have undermined the whole entirety of his books without fail, you as the reader would never have experienced middle earth because the characters just flew above it, ignoring all the little details Tolkien made about his world, which made his world even more alive than the characters that inhabited it.

Flying is the bane of fantasy, it breaks immersion because you no longer have to explore the land, you can just skip everything in the world if its necessary, and cheapen the experience the author of that world has made at his expense for you to explore as he intended.

Give no flying a shot, its not like you ever played vanilla, so stop crying about having to see the game from another perspective for a short while for once.

[Pann]

Can you give me more insider-information?
It's obvious you have beta-access.

Do you really need insider information to work out that delaying the release of flying does not cater to either the people who want flying removed and those that don't? Do you need beta access to know that travel in game is slower than without and thus it will take longer to accomplish in game activities?

Because voting with their wallet means everyone is apparently going to buy the CE.

It does? To me it looks like some people will buy the expansion, some will not and number of those who will buy the expansion will buy the CE.

[Destruktion]

So why are some people supporting a change that in your own words will be "a severe disadvantage?"

Because everyone is on the same footing if everyone is using a ground mount. That, plus content is easier to design without incorporating flying.

[Katchii]

So they take away flying to make it feel epic again? That will last about 30 seconds and then its 16 months of business like usual. What about the guy who unsubbs for two months to ignore the grounding punishment? That won't make flying feel epic to them. I support not flying until level cap, but 2 months longer is just rediculous.

Flying isn't going to be handed to anyone at 6.1, the current discussion according to Bashiok is that it will be the reward for an "epic" quest chain, and the final leg of the chain won't release until patch 6.1.

[Celarent]

Exploring Pandaria by land was already leaps and bounds more interesting than Cataclysm.

[Pann]

Even still, nothing that you're saying gives any legitimate debate to their reasoning.

A customer does not need to justify why they dislike a change to the business but the business has to justify to the customer why they made that change if they expect the customer to continue giving them business.

[Kelimbror]

And praytell then, will EQN and Wildstar have flying in the game?

So far, yes. Argument invalid. This may change though.

[zephid]

Just putting the question out there.

When WoD comes out with flying restricted until 6.1 and a tight-knit server community DOESN'T spontaneously form, when nobody talks, when nobody really gives a shit, when it's still just a bunch of people collecting bear asses in silence or else idling at the bank waiting for queues to pop, will you admit that you were wrong?

Will you admit that restricting flying didn't really accomplish a damned thing?

It will have increased the occurrence of world pvp, which is its main selling point for me.

[De Lupe]

The only way to discover if the absence of flying will affect the game is to create an absence of flying.

Scientific theory at work.

[tripleh]

I just want more sub losses to happen then blizzard will realize that they need to stop listening to these F'in idiots at every expansion launch . But really wish these people would just go stand in traffic and get hit . We don't need you in wow.

[xlanonym0uslx]

I for see one "tiny" issue with everything you just said. There still is no Immersion, Flow, Pace OR danger if the people who are angry (myself included) refuse to leave the cities and que via LFD/LFR. So if they are trying to 'force' immersion, flow, pace and danger ... it will be a waste of time so long as the LFD/R tool still exists. I intend to hit 100 by not touching Draenor at all, and continue to fly around the old worlds while queuing up for dungeons, if I even get the game at all (Still deciding really). I'll worry about questing and "Seeing the world" AFTER flight has been restored and play as I want from that point on. This is the same nonsense they did in Cata where they thought it was a great idea to make the game "Harder" and look where THAT got them.

Seriously, if you're gonna be that entitled and petty, please leave. You have no reason to be here if you just want to ignore where the vast majority of the work of a new expansion goes to. They took away flying mounts temporarily so YOU can learn to appreciate and enjoy the game and content they're making.

It's gonna be a waste of time if people like YOU still exist, and should they just make dungeons and raids and a room with profession nodes, and the dungeons and raids only accessible by LFG to make it even easier to ignore everything they've been working on for months? Or even better, just not make quests or outdoor content, only dungeons and raids, and even better, let's just remove mats for professions entirely, or you know what, remove profs entirely so it's one less thing to worry about. I do advocate the removal of these quick queue options, but I don't think they're going away, and same with flying, it's just on hold... If you're purposely avoiding enjoyment, you should probably go back to your cubicle.

I don't know why you're going to go back and quest once you're 100 and it's irrelevant to you. Also, you're not gonna be seeing the world once you fly, you're gonna be seeing the quest giver and quest mobs/items and then your hot pockets in between.

Besides, it's not your game and it ultimately depends on what Blizz wants to do. You people have had your way since WotLK and somewhat BC, so let the people that want no flying have their turn for once since it's long overdue. And don't just say "use ground mounts if you want to". I enjoy a living world where there's always players in sight. Even if you don't talk or interact much, it's great to see a world so vivid with movement and life. Besides, IRL, isn't that what usually happens on a busy sidewalk, you just walk by without acknowledging each other, but imagine if you never walked by anyone and didn't even have the chance to interact or ignore?

Also, if you see someone getting ganked, you're much more likely to help if you're on a ground mount, either because it's easier to get involved because you're closer or because you can ACTUALLY SEE THEM, or because you risk being ganked.

EDIT: Sorry, hard to incorporate any type of spacing/paragraphs and consolidate my thoughts in a fluid manner from my phone. :S

[Pann]

Because everyone is on the same footing if everyone is using a ground mount. That, plus content is easier to design without incorporating flying.

Ah, so everyone should be at "a severe disadvantage?" By acknowledging that not having flying is "a severe disadvantage" you must therefore realise that its inclusion is an advantage as such why would you want it removed or delayed?

Why should we, as customers, care what is easy for Blizzard? Surely our focus should be what is most enjoyable to play not what is easiest and therefore costs the least for Blizzard to produce?