Siegecrafter Zerg strat?

[Braindwen]

You have no idea what "Zerging" is, do you?

All that was stated by the OP is 1/1/8. Sure, using "zerg" was a poor choice on his part, but I feel no need to debate an idea that would never be useful at all (ignoring belts).

"OP said zerg somewhere in it, so he obviously meant something other than what was said" is not helpful.

[Qualia]

All that was stated by the OP is 1/1/8. Sure, using "zerg" was a poor choice on his part, but I feel no need to debate an idea that would never be useful at all (ignoring belts).

"OP said zerg somewhere in it, so he obviously meant something other than what was said" is not helpful.

OP asked about a rumoured zerg strat. He only added the "1 tank 1 healer" part in a bit after he posted. That one tank one healer (or using the minimal amount of tank / healer in general) bit is usually the result of using zerg strat (so you can maximize DPS to ignore mechanics), not the definition of zerg strat. As I said, simply using one tank one heal will just make it the normal strat, with emphasis on DPS. You can ask around, probably 9 out of 10 people posting here will think of "just tunneling boss, killing mines / shredder / missiles as they come, skipping belt" when OP mentioned "zerg". Have you considered that OP just asked if there is any possible zerg strat, and the answer is no (at least not one that make the fight easier)?

And actually, zerging (ignoring the belt and just have everyone dps boss, deal with every mechanics + shield) sounds theoretically possible (although not very feasible for people who started attempt Blackfuse). My raid usually did ~25% of Blackfuse HP when first belt ended. We are 25M, only @573 ilvl, using 4 heals 2 tanks and have 4 DPS on the first belt. Now assuming a group @~575, zerg the boss with 1 tank 2 heals, all DPS on boss and more skilled than us, it should be possible to do 30%-35%. That left 65% for the next 12 belts, average of 5.5% per belt. The shield is up for 1/2 duration of a belt (20s), so as long as a group is capable of doing 12% per belt (to be safe) normally, they would be able to "zerg" it. It's probably easier in 10M with a warrior / monk tank and a disc priest?
Not saying it will make the fight easier, but maybe if someone want to show they can do it with an ...er... innovative strat that doesn't require people to learn to do belt...

[Dracodraco]

It caps at 10 and I have survived 10 before so it is possible.

Not sure why you would do this. this is one of those fights that doesnt get harder. it is just the same level of difficulty. If you have the gear required to do this zerg then the fight should be easy enough.

Yes, but have you survived a 10-hit 3 times in a row over the 30 seconds it'd take from belt 3 to 4? Our prot warrior easily goes to 10 and survive it too, but that requires using externals/cloak proc as a CD towards the end. Taking 3x hits for 3.5M in a row over 30 seconds seems unstable at best .

[Deleted]

Dont need -that- good gear. Think the guild in this video had ~569 or so average. Just need rogue(s), warlock(s) and a hunter for each belt. 2 tanks ofc, and disc (guess maybe doable with a MW).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8hIn1YJK4

DPS requirements in 10m is absolutely non-existant. Such a joke to always see these zerg strats coming from 10m. It's not possible at all in 25m, not even close.

Dark Animus aswell. You couldn't zerg it on 25m.

[ChristopherHansen]

DPS requirements in 10m is absolutely non-existant. Such a joke to always see these zerg strats coming from 10m. It's not possible at all in 25m, not even close.

Dark Animus aswell. You couldn't zerg it on 25m.

Wait but 10 man is tuned so much more closely and no one can be carried way too much responsibility per person right???

[Deleted]

Oh good, it's this time again.

Mythic will be fun for the people who whine about 10 man. What will they whine about next??? Felwood world buffs? How any guild who has X class should be disqualified from the rankings?

[KaPe]

Must be a 10 man thing. While we're hardly best DPSers in the world, he's nowhere near low enough to die in 3-4 belts. And going from 19 to 20 DPS barely changes anything. Maybe with 2 healing or "solo" healing this in 25, but that would require a ton of raid/external cooldowns.

[Gliff]

Oh good, it's this time again.

Mythic will be fun for the people who whine about 10 man. What will they whine about next??? Felwood world buffs? How any guild who has X class should be disqualified from the rankings?

What are you talking about? It isnt an opinion, it is a fact. More 10 man bosses are able to be zerged because of the lower DPS requirements per person.

When has a 25 man boss been zergable when it wasnt on 10 man? Never.

[Deleted]

snip

Why would "zerging" necessarily imply that you ignore all mechanics? It doesn't. On the Dark Animus zerg do you just ignore the anima bolts too (hint: no)?
If there will ever be a perceived "zerg" strat for hc blackfuse(when it's relevant content ofc), it'll involve actually doing the belts.

[Terridon]

What are you talking about? It isnt an opinion, it is a fact. More 10 man bosses are able to be zerged because of the lower DPS requirements per person.

When has a 25 man boss been zergable when it wasnt on 10 man? Never.

Not because of that, and besides some bosses have higher dps req for 10man pr person. It varies much depending on if you 2 or 3-heal, where 25man have it much easier adjusting the healer amount.
Things just hits for less in 10man, and there's often less adds if there's those, so the tanks have half the adds to deal with, making it easier to zerg.

[Deleted]

When has a 25 man boss been zergable when it wasnt on 10 man? Never.

Remember Norushen first day of heroics cutiepie?

[Henriksson]

What are you talking about? It isnt an opinion, it is a fact. More 10 man bosses are able to be zerged because of the lower DPS requirements per person.

When has a 25 man boss been zergable when it wasnt on 10 man? Never.

Can you stop being such a scrub? Do you see everything in black and white? One of the reasons Bosshealth divided by number of dps is less on 10 than on 25 because of your cd's that you can chain during heroism/bloodlust for example: Critbanner and stormlash. You can basically have banner up for everyones cd's making everyones personal dps higher.
Another reason is 25-man always has every buff/debuff in the raid increasing raid dps significantly. This is not usually a luxury to have in 10-man.
I'd like to go on, but I wouldn't want to disturb your garrosh progress. I hear there are informative guides and videos on how to do everything there, and you won't actually have to analyze and learn anything about the fight yourselves, like me and my team had to do in 10-man ezmode. Just follow the recipe like real trash. Go on. Or maybe you'd like to spend more of your time posting about 10vs25, a subject of which you are clueless.

[Deleted]

DPS requirements in 10m is absolutely non-existant. Such a joke to always see these zerg strats coming from 10m. It's not possible at all in 25m, not even close.

Dark Animus aswell. You couldn't zerg it on 25m.

25man zerg every boss, by being able to bring 10 healers, and let 1/5 of the raid die and still smoothly kill the boss.

There is a reason why 10man flex is also alot harder then doing it with 25 ppl. Nobody has any personal responsibility.

[Qualia]

Why would "zerging" necessarily imply that you ignore all mechanics? It doesn't. On the Dark Animus zerg do you just ignore the anima bolts too (hint: no)?
If there will ever be a perceived "zerg" strat for hc blackfuse(when it's relevant content ofc), it'll involve actually doing the belts.

I never said zerging imply that you ignore >> all << mechanics. I said zerging is using high DPS to ignore "certain part of the normally used strats", which I assume many people would have similar definition.

Going from my memory, might have missed some zerg strats:
OS3D's zerg - tunnel boss and kill him before he become invulnerable. Skipping the killing 3 small drakes.
Garajal's zerg - tunnel boss and kill him before healers can't keep up with damage, don't go down at all. Skipping the going down to another realm.
Ambershaper's zerg - stacks debuff on boss during phase 1, tunnel and dump all DPS on boss during transition so he dies and allowing skipping other phases (before hotfix) and phase 3 (after hotfix).
Primordius's zerg - tunnel boss and ignore all the blobs. Skipping the blobs killing and boss.
Dark Animus's zerg - tunnel boss and don't dump the small anima golems (at least intentionally) to the big one. Skipping the dealing with big anima golem.
Norushen's zerg - Majority of DPS tunnel boss, only healers / tank get into orb (maybe some guilds let a few high DPS get orb too?). Skipping the dealing with spawned mobs.
etc.

Do you see? All of them involve using high DPS to simplify strategy and skipping certain mechanics that you have to deal with normally. Not every bosses have an available zerg strat. These zerg strats aren't always being done using 1 tank and 1 healer either. If you are dealing with every mechanics and doing it normally with 1 tank 1 heal, you are doing normal strat with a low tank/heal group to get a fast kill.
OP was asking about a zerg strat, not the normal strat, that's why people are answering accordingly.

[Deleted]

25man zerg every boss, by being able to bring 10 healers, and let 1/5 of the raid die and still smoothly kill the boss.

There is a reason why 10man flex is also alot harder then doing it with 25 ppl. Nobody has any personal responsibility.

Except 25m requires alot higher dps. Can you explain to me why it's always in 10m that these zergstrats comes in? If you compare killtimes on WoL between 10hc and 25hc. They are a lot shorter on every boss in 10m. So what does this tell us? DPS requirements in 10m is non-existant.

Can't wait to see these 10m people coming up and fighting with the big boys in WoD. Gonna be fun to see all of them getting stomped on.

[yeryerdude]

Except 25m requires alot higher dps. Can you explain to me why it's always in 10m that these zergstrats comes in? If you compare killtimes on WoL between 10hc and 25hc. They are a lot shorter on every boss in 10m. So what does this tell us? DPS requirements in 10m is non-existant.

Can't wait to see these 10m people coming up and fighting with the big boys in WoD. Gonna be fun to see all of them getting stomped on.

I can't wait tilll WoD so retarded comparisons like you must made won't happen.

[Gliff]

Can you stop being such a scrub? Do you see everything in black and white? One of the reasons Bosshealth divided by number of dps is less on 10 than on 25 because of your cd's that you can chain during heroism/bloodlust for example: Critbanner and stormlash. You can basically have banner up for everyones cd's making everyones personal dps higher.
Another reason is 25-man always has every buff/debuff in the raid increasing raid dps significantly. This is not usually a luxury to have in 10-man.
I'd like to go on, but I wouldn't want to disturb your garrosh progress. I hear there are informative guides and videos on how to do everything there, and you won't actually have to analyze and learn anything about the fight yourselves, like me and my team had to do in 10-man ezmode. Just follow the recipe like real trash. Go on. Or maybe you'd like to spend more of your time posting about 10vs25, a subject of which you are clueless.

Wow you're an angry little fella.

First of all, I never said 25 man was harder. I was stating the fact that you come across bosses that are able to be zerged in 10 and not 25. The reasons you stated are 100% true but my point remains that 25 man bosses are not zergable because even with all the raid CDs and shit we have, it is almost impossible to have the DPS required to do it. I actually said days ago on these forums that there are easier and harder bosses at both difficulties so don't go getting your panties in a bunch princess.

Second of all, I have no idea why you are attacking me or my guild. I'm not bragging about how good we are or how we figure shit out ourselves. Your guild raids "5-7 days a week" according to your recruitment page. Why would you ever brag about how much better you are then my guild, a 9 hour a week guild......

By the way, there were 3 kill videos released of 10 man Garrosh 2 weeks before you got your kill and another 4 days before so please dont act like you had no help from videos.

- - - Updated - - -

Remember Norushen first day of heroics cutiepie?

Didn't know that wasn't doable on 10 man. Hotfixed anyways

[Henriksson]

Wow you're an angry little fella.

First of all, I never said 25 man was harder. I was stating the fact that you come across bosses that are able to be zerged in 10 and not 25. The reasons you stated are 100% true but my point remains that 25 man bosses are not zergable because even with all the raid CDs and shit we have, it is almost impossible to have the DPS required to do it. I actually said days ago on these forums that there are easier and harder bosses at both difficulties so don't go getting your panties in a bunch princess.

Second of all, I have no idea why you are attacking me or my guild. I'm not bragging about how good we are or how we figure shit out ourselves. Your guild raids "5-7 days a week" according to your recruitment page. Why would you ever brag about how much better you are then my guild, a 9 hour a week guild......

By the way, there were 3 kill videos released of 10 man Garrosh 2 weeks before you got your kill and another 4 days before so please dont act like you had no help from videos.

- - - Updated - - -



Didn't know that wasn't doable on 10 man. Hotfixed anyways

Garrosh might not be the best example, that would be siegecrafter.

No boss is zergable on 10-man with relevant gear, and if it's not with relevant gear then it doesn't matter, no one cares about farm. Where as this tier, norushen was zergable on 25-man and pretty much every 25-man guild used that tactic for the first week.

Would you like to list all these bosses that are zergable on 10 but not 25? Just a warning, bringing up dark animus as an example will make me piss my pants laughing.

[Dracodraco]

Didn't know that wasn't doable on 10 man. Hotfixed anyways

It was, it just wasn't neccessary due to the way the fight worked. To put it in perspective, remember that the AOE pulses from adds used to give +2 corruption. In a 10 man, you had to kill 6 adds + 5 adds to cleanse every one of your DPS from corruption, and tanks/healers would spawn no adds. This means that tanks/healers could easily cover picking up every buff, and you never had more than one add up at a time to focus (1 healer/tank and 1 dps going in at a time). Each pulse added 20 corruption across the raid. By
In 25 man, on the other hand, you'd have 18+5 adds, or 23. Each of these would also pulse +2 corruption to everyone, for 50 corruption across the raid. Thus it lead to 25 man's gaining the same amount of corruption when killing an add, as they "cleansed" from going inside (50 from the unavoidable pulse, 25 from soaking the orb). Sure, it was redistributed amongst everyone, and if you went in late you'd cleanse 100 instead of 75 corruption, but you get the general idea - cleansing people basicly kept 25 man status-quo on corruption, while in 10 man, they shed a fair bit. So, TL;DR - it was totally doable in 10 man, and I know a fair few guilds that went for it on EU side due to simplicity. It just wasn't really "needed", and not neccessarely "easier" if you had half-bad dps.

Would you like to list all these bosses that are zergable on 10 but not 25? Just a warning, bringing up dark animus as an example will make me piss my pants laughing.

Please define at which point. When guilds are "zerging" blackfuse with maybe 570 avg ilvl, that's still not "relevant" as people did it with 555-560 ilvl. So what is the cut-off point? Previous tier's BiS (about 555 ilvl for most classes)? Current tier's normal mode BiS (about 565)? Current guilds that are progressing on him's rough ilvl (about 570)?

But as stated above, if you couldn't zerg norushen on 10 man the first week, then your DPS pretty much failed. Tell Gaz he needs to fire more lazers. I know of guilds with far worse progress than yours that did it :P.

[Deleted]

So I see alot of mudslinging between 10 and 25 in this thread, but is there actual proof that this strat is possible? As in, 1 tank 1 heal and just kill him before electro and other shit kills the tank/raid?

I don't mean 2 tank 1 heal because that's just dealing with mechanics properly.