Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Facts Hurt! Stop throwing them around!

    In the grand scheme of things, WOW's player base is pretty small. You have a lot of people who have been playing since Vanilla (or at least claim too). These are the same kind of folks that stuck with Everquest until they turned off the server.

    Personally I think Blizz is taking away some of these different things like flying, because they know the core crowd won't leave or won't stay gone. Maybe they are also proving that taking away all these things won't bring back millions of subs. There seems to be this pocket of people who think if they just reverted WoD back to Vanilla, suddenly the subs will start climbing again. My opinion is the ship has sailed They've had a awesome run and their doing their best to keep the game healthy and interesting.

    But has Superman noted. We have so little actual data, we can't feel too confident in our expert analysis.
    I am all for "speculation", but people need to understand without solid, extrapolated data, every thing said on this topic is assumption. Anyone who assumes they are in the right with their opinion regarding the data even being viable is a fool. I know the truth hurts, but someone had to say it.

  2. #42
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    9,634
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    Graph, removed, and edited for clarity. People can't keep their eyes off it and focus on the topic of the post. (I'll admit, I shouldn't have put it there in the first place)
    You mean the graph was removed because it didn't support your talking points, since most people remember WoTLK as being a very casual friendly experience, through and through, with plenty of convenience such as tome of cold weather flying (to help you level alts) and even when LFD was introduced later on in WoTLK most people embraced it.

    Subs started falling in Cata, not only because the game was getting old, but because Blizzard failed to round up a growing botting problem that screwed over anybody who relied on gathering skills, and because the 10/25 lockout merge basically told casual raiders to "bend over and call us daddy, lulz". It was the most convenient levelling experience, but other than levelling, it was extremely inconvenient. LFR didn't show up until the Hour of Twilight patch, and even that was an insult to the intelligence of casual raiders.

    And Cross realm battlegrounds? lol, that was introduced in like 2006. That's a Vanilla convenience feature. Sure, you had to fly over to the portal, but then Battle masters were introduced IN THE BURNING CRUSADE. Which put the ability to que for battlegrounds all in one convenient spot.

    None of your points are supported by, well, anything.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamico View Post
    - I travel a lot. Especially to stormwind to learn new spells.
    - I died multiple times.
    - I died after resurruction in a mine because every fucking mob respawned. I should have joined the group i met inside this mine.
    And last but not least:
    - I have so much fun leveling.
    If dying a lot means that much too you. Why not level the Ironman way ? Where you only equip Grays and Whites ? No giving yourself funds, or bags, no using health potions, no grouping with people to help you kill things, No talent tree. Of course, part of the rule of Ironman, if you died, that was it. Character is dead forever. But you could modify that part to your liking.

    Lots of folks participated in it. There is even a website to track it http://wowironman.com/ Once again, people who want more challenge find a way to make it more challenging. Those that don't, go to the forums and complain
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-11-20 at 04:18 PM.

  4. #44
    90% of the time, I keep realizing how the game always gets worse when other people are involved in what you do. The "social aspect" sucks and "the community" blows. That's why the game is getting worse and worse right now - because Blizzard is trying to bully players back into "being social".

  5. #45
    IMO I am irked by the fact that said convenience is now being adopted by parts of the dev team, the early level talents are just copy/paste of either:

    a) Move speed buff at 15 + CC at 30
    b) Move speed buff at 15 + some sort of healing at 30

    Some of the talents later on are still lazy (Fist of Justice is simply Hammer of Justice with +20 range) or simply old base abilities made into talents (Mind Control).

    Then they went on and homogenized everything else among the classes including part of the play style, a pally now feels like half rogue with clunky combo points

    Don't even get me started on revamps, ugh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    This is true for ALL products. Once new versions come out the older versions go in decline. Or do you honestly still watch movies through VHS? It's really simple basic economics, I'm sure Blizzard is fully aware of this effect and have made changes to the game accordingly.
    You posted the theory and yet fail to understand there are flaws to the Product Life Cycle Theory

    1) There is no set time in which the product must be in each stage (Decline? Didn't many say WoW is not 'dying'?)
    2) May not apply to all products (Radios are still around and will still be around even after a long time)
    3) Emphasizes a lot on the product instead of the brand (People may still play WoW because they like Blizzard's games and would like to try their MMO sometime in the future)
    Last edited by championknight; 2013-11-20 at 04:32 PM.

  6. #46
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,130
    Well, one could argue that the player-made carrots exist because the Blizzard-made carrots became too quickly earned.

    When I finish content--or hell when I'm still progressing through it, the only real carrot left is beating every other frost mage and attempting to topple the class as a whole. That's the only real goal left. I would argue that it was much better to have only one version of a boss. Killing Illidan felt amazing. Killing Garrosh on LFR saps some of the allure out of doing it on Flex, which takes some cool factor away from it on Normal, and by the time you get to Heroic it's just... going through the motions and more crucially playing better.

    So the focus is on playing better, not the content itself. The consequence of that is, and can only be, metrics popping up to analyze how we are playing.

    And that is the problem.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Once again, people who want more challenge find a way to make it more challenging. Those that don't, go to the forums and complain
    In WoW's current state of leveling it will be very hard to die even with mass pulling unless you afk or get ambushed by a Outland Fel Reaver. There are hardly any elites worth challenging yourself in 1-60 compared to pre Cata

  8. #48
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,130
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Here's the problem I have with the usual, My Generation had it right, the new generation is terrible. Each Generation will just apply the 8th century Hesiod quote to the next

    "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint"
    I'm not saying it's a bad business decision at all. Just that I'm in the minority, so is the OP, and so are many Vanilla folk who are continuously griping these days. We griped when TBC hit and now we look back on it fondly. We griped hard when WotLK hit and with each patch within and continued to moan through Cata and MoP killed off quite a lot of Vanilla loyalists.

    So what I suggest to those in the minority is to do what I do-- become the architects of your own reality. Make your own guild and surround yourselves with like minds. Pay no heed to the LFR crowd, the meta changes, and make the game your own on whatever terms available to you.

    It's such a great game and even though decent people are hard to come by, they're out there. Assemble them and enjoy the content

  9. #49
    The "free lvl 90 with WoD purchase" is exactly the type of thing that helps both convenience AND community. As long as they keep adding options for old players to pick the game back up easily and new players to learn quickly/catch up relatively quickly, I don't see why the two have to be at odds.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    If dying a lot means that much too you. Why not level the Ironman way ? Where you only equip Grays and Whites ? No giving yourself funds, or bags, no using health potions, no grouping with people to help you kill things, No talent tree. Of course, part of the rule of Ironman, if you died, that was it. Character is dead forever. But you could modify that part to your liking.

    Lots of folks participated in it. There is even a website to track it http://wowironman.com/ Once again, people who want more challenge find a way to make it more challenging. Those that don't, go to the forums and complain
    sounds fun.

    but i also could play classic wow or dark souls or any other hard game instead paying a monthly fee. and a lot of people did this instead.

    it's not about dying anyway. it's about giving a reason to interact with other players outside of raids.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    Graph removed, and edited for clarity. People can't keep their eyes off it and focus on the topic of the post. (I'll admit, I shouldn't have put it there in the first place)

    Convenience is king (of what we think we want, not what is necessarily best for us).

    On face value it always sounds like a good deal:

    1. You never have to use LFG chat again! Hey, that sure was somewhat tedious. YAY!
    2. LFD/LFR makes it easy to gear alts. Hurray, sounds great!
    3. Playing with your friends X-Realm. Sounds good!

    1. Because talking to anyone would be a bad idea.
    2. Because being a guild is just a waste of time.
    3. Because making new friends on your server is difficult.

    These pro-convenience features are all about avoiding the community. We no longer have to talk to anyone to experience the whole game, in an genre where the 'social' aspect of the game is its 'core feature'. When everyone you play with is just a random face, that you'll never see again, there's no incentive to be cordial, competent, or even present. It's not as if MMO's really stand on their own with just their gameplay, presentation, or storytelling.

    "We should just build new features focused on making these other features work."
    One step forward, and two steps back, feature creep:
    LFD/LFR'ers are rude, incompetent, or afk:
    Use Kick feature
    Kick is abused (kick diminishing return is added)
    Kick DR is unbiased and doesn't realize that your kicks are legit (can't kick)
    Build a new system of kicking that analyzes the situation to make sure people aren't kicking frivolously
    (I'm sorry, this doesn't even sound remotely possible.)

    None of this makes people behave better, it just an anonymous punishment. Vengeance may make you 'feel' good, but it doesn't solve very much.

    Humans are simply better at vetting other humans, than computers are. We evolved, over millions of years to doing it after all, and computers have only been around for decades. I feel if we want to have a good community, to have a more fun game, and hopefully make Blizz to more $ -- we should just get rid of these features.

    "Once you've given someone convenience, you can't just take it away!"
    Sure you can. And what's the worst that can happen? Subs are already falling as fast as they ever rose to begin with.

    "If you get rid of X-Server play we're going to huge have queue times on BG's and barren regions on some servers"
    Be somewhat aggressive in merging servers, and instate a faction quota. Get it balanced, and try to keep it that way.

    -------------------------

    Do you think I am right, or wrong? And please answer with why.
    The three features you listed are all optional to use. You are more than welcome to find servermates to form dungeon/raid groups on your own. Blizzard did not force anyone to stop communicating on their servers, lazy players did. I do play on a med-low pop server even after a few mergers and usually have pre made groups for LFD, and can usually get 10-15 for LFRs. The convenience options have not stopped me or my friends from being a community.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,661
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    WoW will always be a reflection of the people who play it. American cultural attention span shortens, vocabulary worsens, focus and interest level declines, social skills deteriorate, then in order for the game to remain successful it must allow them to still chase a carrot.

    [...]

    Don't expect it to be different in any other game, it's much bigger than Blizzard. It's in our office buildings, schools, games, movies, and music. Meaning and depth are leaving for the micropleasures of sweet and salty breadcrumbs. All media/entertainment producers are satisfying the shallow minded and keeping their hands in the bag, nibbling on morsels of entitlement.
    Tell that to all the ******* who thinks it's only because Activision "bought" Blizzard -___-
    Other than that, I completely agree with the analysis.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamico View Post
    sounds fun.

    but i also could play classic wow or dark souls or any other hard game instead paying a monthly fee. and a lot of people did this instead.

    it's not about dying anyway. it's about giving a reason to interact with other players outside of raids.
    Does not compute. Vanilla wasn't hard. It was more tedious than it was hard.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-11-22 at 02:11 PM.

    Sometimes updated...

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    You mean the graph was removed because it didn't support your talking points, since most people remember WoTLK as being a very casual friendly experience, through and through, with plenty of convenience such as tome of cold weather flying (to help you level alts) and even when LFD was introduced later on in WoTLK most people embraced it.

    Subs started falling in Cata, not only because the game was getting old, but because Blizzard failed to round up a growing botting problem that screwed over anybody who relied on gathering skills, and because the 10/25 lockout merge basically told casual raiders to "bend over and call us daddy, lulz". It was the most convenient levelling experience, but other than levelling, it was extremely inconvenient. LFR didn't show up until the Hour of Twilight patch, and even that was an insult to the intelligence of casual raiders.

    And Cross realm battlegrounds? lol, that was introduced in like 2006. That's a Vanilla convenience feature. Sure, you had to fly over to the portal, but then Battle masters were introduced IN THE BURNING CRUSADE. Which put the ability to que for battlegrounds all in one convenient spot.

    None of your points are supported by, well, anything.
    Reading this made me smile. Particularly your truth about the removal of the graph.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by freighttrain View Post
    The three features you listed are all optional to use. You are more than welcome to find servermates to form dungeon/raid groups on your own. Blizzard did not force anyone to stop communicating on their servers, lazy players did. I do play on a med-low pop server even after a few mergers and usually have pre made groups for LFD, and can usually get 10-15 for LFRs. The convenience options have not stopped me or my friends from being a community.
    Yes for any individual it is a choice, but I'm talking about the community at large and whether or not it damages it.

    It does seem that people will chose convenience over what's best for them though.

    "When asked about password protecting their mobile devices:

    More than half of respondents said they do not use a password or PIN to lock their smartphone or tablet
    44 percent who do not lock their mobile devices said that using a password is “too cumbersome"
    30 percent who do not lock their mobile devices said they “are not worried about the risk”"
    http://confidenttechnologies.com/new...-over-security

    "It's Convenience, Not Cost, That Makes Us Fat" http://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoff...-makes-us-fat/
    And the study they cite http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...y.2009.26/full
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Reading this made me smile. Particularly your truth about the removal of the graph.
    The thread has always been named "Convenience vs Community".

    "Anyway, ..." as in "getting off that tangent", didn't seem to have been clear, which I've admitted.
    yay for cynicism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    Subs started falling in Cata, not only because the game was getting old, but because Blizzard failed to round up a growing botting problem that screwed over anybody who relied on gathering skills, and because the 10/25 lockout merge basically told casual raiders to "bend over and call us daddy, lulz". It was the most convenient levelling experience, but other than levelling, it was extremely inconvenient. LFR didn't show up until the Hour of Twilight patch, and even that was an insult to the intelligence of casual raiders.

    And Cross realm battlegrounds? lol, that was introduced in like 2006. That's a Vanilla convenience feature. Sure, you had to fly over to the portal, but then Battle masters were introduced IN THE BURNING CRUSADE. Which put the ability to que for battlegrounds all in one convenient spot.

    None of your points are supported by, well, anything.
    A potential solution to some of the botting may be to make PvP gear more accessible through PvE, i.e. If the intersection of viability for PvE/PvP gear were (much) more substantial. This may also help bring the community close together, as many PvP'ers would potentially be more willing to PvE if the gear wasn't so nearly worthless for PvP, and vice versa.

    Also I'm sorry if my original post made it sound to others like "No convenience is good convenience".

    --------

    One of the problems with using data on a piece of art, is that you can't pin down any one aspect of it to guarantee success. Some basic quality things are objective, but not much else. And even that objective quality may not be contributing to popularity. i.e. Tech graphics, bugs, and performance are objective. Art style, gameplay, fun, are subjective.

    And getting good data from polling the community is also another hurdle, as other's have brought up about why they have cancelled.

    "It's something that's been really bothering us for awhile," a visibly befuddled Newell told The Noble Eskimo. "The odds of this happening are even less than a billion-to-one. In fact, this is without a doubt the least likely thing that has ever happened on this planet. 93% of our more-than 30 million users were born on January 1st. It's incredible." http://www.thenobleeskimo.com/steamusers.html

    WoW is still a game in relatively uncharted territory. Never before or since has anything in the genre been nearly this popular. They have some examples of people chasing their coattails but not much of people just trying their best to be better and becoming serious competition. Blizzard has name recognition, and $. Promotion is easy with $, and certainly a huge factor in popularity.

    Testing is also extremely hard for Blizzard. On PTR/Beta people know there is no investment in the game, and it's not very long-term (though I think it could be a little interesting of a test to see how people cope with not having the features). In a focus group, it may not even be the kind of person who cares/would play your game in the first place. If only Blizzard could do longitudinal studies on the matter. But then again, it's also art, and there's never going to be a theory of MMORPG success, just suggestions.

  16. #56
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    11,966
    The first few months of Cataclysm with the giant slide started weren't noticeably more convenient than WotLK. So whatever your reasoning is, it doesn't take that into account.

    Common sense though will tell you a couple of things:

    1. Video games and other entertainment products are considered disposable by most people. In other words, they buy them, they play them a while, they move on to something else. WoW has had a good run. For a lot of reasons, increased competition and some serious mistakes reading their player/customers, it's now on a glide path from its peak which was improbably high to begin with.

    2. Trying to convince anyone that the game needs to be less convenient to be more attractive to the average player of games is a non-starter. We're not talking about your 10% elite players here. Just the average kid or adult that has heard something and makes a purchase to see what's going on.

    It's perfectly fine to have your opinions. You're on shaky ground when you start trying to connect cause-and-effect without any actual hard data to support your thesis. Blizzard thinks that just about the most popular thing to do during Wrath, running heroics which were easy and fast, suddenly became a real problem when random 5-man groups failed repeatedly on them in Cataclysm. They made an expansion which played precisely to elite players and lobbied the players hard with all of the usual BS about aspiring to play better and bring the player not the class and how dungeons should be hard. They were wrong. Damage was done, however and a lot of people found it easier to quit for those and other reasons.

    I don't think for a minute that a great number of people sat at their computers every night watching their random heroics go down in flames after an hour or more of trying to finish them or trying to make adjustments to the healing they knew from Wrath and logged off angrily stating "The game is just too damn convenient!"
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I don't think for a minute that a great number of people sat at their computers every night watching their random heroics go down in flames after an hour or more of trying to finish them or trying to make adjustments to the healing they knew from Wrath and logged off angrily stating "The game is just too damn convenient!"
    Of course not, but they were probably pretty surprised that after the game handing them everything else at every step of the way, they suddenly came upon challenges they had not been prepared for by any other portion of the game. Maybe they wouldn't point to convenience, but they were pointed to their fate by that convenience.

  18. #58
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    A little south of sanity
    Posts
    2,220
    I'll take community
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  19. #59
    I'm not entirely sure of what OP's thread was meant to promote discussion about but I assume it concerns LFR/LFG. Frankly I think these were a big part of ruining WoW. They destroyed the community which is ultimately why people should be playing the game (that said there are a lot of casuals you just want to farm all day and ignore everyone else).

    To put it shortly:
    No LFG forced players on a server to work together. You made friends, you blacklisted dicks.
    LFG means no community since pugs form which are often cross server. You likely won't see these people ever again, so who cares how you treat each other?

  20. #60
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    11,966
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Of course not, but they were probably pretty surprised that after the game handing them everything else at every step of the way, they suddenly came upon challenges they had not been prepared for by any other portion of the game. Maybe they wouldn't point to convenience, but they were pointed to their fate by that convenience.
    But I don't think it was fate. It was a deliberate choice by Blizzard to attempt to bring the game back to somewhere near BC levels of difficulty for heroic dungeons and a terrible misreading of the capabilities of random groups and the players in them. It didn't work.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •