A Warning Against Supporting Big Government

[Xeones]

I think there's a problem if you think there's any meaningful distinction between the two. Both are undesirable and lead to massive human suffering.

Also don't assume that the "soft" watered down "socialism" in some countries is somehow a great thing just because there aren't any gulags.

The welfare state is unsustainable and will collapse sooner or later and then all that you will have left is a bunch of impoverished, government-dependant angry mobs. A crisis.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm saying there is nothing useful in what you wrote. Misleading statements, paranoia, downright falsehoods what exactly can come from this?

Communism is where the state owns everything and they claim it's a equal utopia. Not socialism. This isn't the dark arges people shouldn't be dying in gutters because you hate poor people.

[Deleted]

You know what people with power (government) loves more than anything? People that don't question anything. Blind patriotism and following. If they manage to make everyone just trust them no matter what you can do anything and can become dictator without violence. To me criticizing government is not hating your country but way to try improve it. If you never criticize anything they're free to do anything. And you're living in a fricing cave if you think your government is perfect and that your society is perfect by standard. There's always room for improvement. Most patriotic thing to do is to criticize your government in aim to improve the country and living for everyone. For example I really care for my country but I think that our government is shit and we should do something to stop downward spiral and try to improve our country and our freedom and equality. But I guess that equality and human rights are leftism to you OP.

And I gotta love that American leftist argument... hell American politics haven't even seen leftism. Your most leftist party is right wing compared to most of countries in the world. You haven't even seen socialism or communism. Please, widen your perspective because at the moment you're keeping both your palms at the table and saying that your right hand's middle finger is leftist. Your problem is not leftism, it's just smoke and mirrors. Your real problem is corruption and increasing power of few and abolishing of your freedom through two-party system. There's is no real choices there are just illusion of choice and those in power are using it to increase their power over everyone. It's not leftism it's just plain greed and lust of power. Also I'm yet to see how war is a good thing. Yeah sometimes it might be necessary but otherwise it should be avoided at all cost.

[Deleted]

Communism is where the state owns everything and they claim it's a equal utopia. Not socialism. This isn't the dark arges people shouldn't be dying in gutters because you hate poor people.

Who said they will? You seem to forget the private safety nets: family, private charity and even church communities. Even if you're not religious surely you can at least see the benefits?

[NPEC]

I think there's a problem if you think there's any meaningful distinction between the two. Both are undesirable and lead to massive human suffering.

Also don't assume that the "soft" watered down "socialism" in some countries is somehow a great thing just because there aren't any gulags.

The welfare state is unsustainable and will collapse sooner or later and then all that you will have left is a bunch of impoverished, government-dependant angry mobs. A crisis.

Altougth you are wrong with not having "meaningful distinction between the two" you are rigth when you say "Both are undesirable and lead to massive human suffering", let me just had one more thing capitalismo also "...lead to massive human suffering", or do you think things like the great depression didnt happen.

Tha is why nowadays goverments tend to have a bit off both not all socialis/comunis, note that they are not the same but for the argumente lets say they are, or you risk to lose produtivity and also not all capitalismo or you risk to have a small rich class and a overwelming poor class.

[TZucchini]

Of course it may become socialist if you continue to allow leftist politicians to undermine those values.

Deal with it. Socialism is deeply ingrained in the American governmental system. How the fuck do you think you're able to post on the internet? It was developed by DARPA. You can't bitch about a big government while using one of their crowning achievements (well you can but no one will take you seriously).

[Rukentuts]

For once it'd really be nice if people didn't confuse the size of government with its authority.

[mvaliz]

Deal with it. Socialism is deeply ingrained in the American governmental system. How the fuck do you think you're able to post on the internet? It was developed by DARPA. You can't bitch about a big government while using one of their crowning achievements (well you can but no one will take you seriously).

I'm SOOOO GLAD I'm not the only one who laughs at people who complain on the internet about how the Government is corrupt due to the reasons you just mentioned! ^_^

[Deleted]

Socialism is moral you moron, it's probably the reason why you're not earning 2 dollars a year.


[Infracted]

[Deleted]

Deal with it. Socialism is deeply ingrained in the American governmental system. How the fuck do you think you're able to post on the internet? It was developed by DARPA. You can't bitch about a big government while using one of their crowning achievements (well you can but no one will take you seriously).

You mean "Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency".

Uh yeah, defense isn't socialism, it's a necessity for any government to defend against outside forces.

Socialism is moral you moron, it's probably the reason why you're not earning 2 dollars a year.

Oh you mean like Cuba where they earn 10 dollars a month and former Eastern bloc countries where all incomes are about 10 times less than countries which never experienced those regimes? What an improvement. )

[Xeones]

Who said they will? You seem to forget the private safety nets: family, private charity and even church communities. Even if you're not religious surely you can at least see the benefits?

Private charities and church groups never have enough to help everyone. Family isn't an option to all, I actually wonder how many it would realistically be a viable option for.

Anyways this is the problem with all your posts. You don't come in and say "I see some problems that we could change" you come in and say "Communists are socialists and they are taking over and it's all going to crash and burn!"

How does one respond to that? Their first reaction is going to back up try to distance themselves from you and say "you crazy". You've experienced this time and time again on these forums, but never once do you stop and think that it might be due to something you're saying. My guess is you just think everyone else is a communist and refuse to even try to see a bit of where they are coming from.

I'll humor you here and tell you some things I see that you could probably partially agree with.

I think welfare is pretty much broken. I think it is too easy for the wrong people to get, I think it is too easy for these people to stay on it, and I think it rewards poor family planning. Additionally I think disability is too easy to get on. I fully believe that welfare should exist, as a temporary tool for people to get back into work. I want to see more measures taken to make welfare push people back into work.

However, this is never going to happen as long as republicans approach the subject with "YOU PEOPLE REFUSE TO WORK! 47% OF THE NATION DOESN'T PAY TAXES! YOU ALL LAZY SCUM!" No one is going to respond to this. No one can even really start a conversation on it, all republicans do is make people turn away from them. Start reasonable to get what you want and work towards more. Trying to gut something right away that people "like" is not going to get you support.

You talk about increasing leftwing sentiment. Do you know what spawns that? Social inequality. Do you know when that started in the US? Reagans economic policies. The gap between rich and poor has skyrocketed. Little is being done to punish corporations who send jobs overseas, or to keep out cheap products made with underpaid child labor. Instead what to republicans say? Cut taxes more for the rich when taxes have never been lower? (well not thanks to the sequestration they imposed)

I don't really think you can talk about the dangers of leftwing policies while actively persuing policies that gives rise to those sentiments. Corporate greed is literally destroying the nation and needs to be addressed. People need to start getting reasonable wages. There is nothing more likely to spawn a civil war in this country than the rapidly increasing gap between rich and poor.

I find it hypocritical when republicans talk about being fiscially responsible or being against big government. There is nothing fiscally responsible about cutting income and increasing spending. There is no shrinking government by increasing military spending.

I find it hypocritical that republicans talk about being the party of "freedom" when they are against a womans right to choose and gay marraige. It makes it impossible for me to ever take any statement seriously when they talk about freedom.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to get off the paranoia wagon and start saying reasonable things. No one is going to click your links or care what you say because the first thing most people think when they read what you write is "crazy".

[Rukentuts]

Oh you mean like Cuba where they earn 10 dollars a month and former Eastern bloc countries where all incomes are about 10 times less than countries which never experienced those regimes? What an improvement. )

What public school did you go to?

[mvaliz]

You mean "Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency".

Uh yeah, defense isn't socialism, it's a necessity for any government to defend against outside forces.

I like how you awkwardly try to side-step around his point about them developing the internet and you ended up falling flat on your face. ^_^

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What public school did you go to?

5 bucks gives you 10 what you really said just here will go right over his head.

[Endus]

I think there's a problem if you think there's any meaningful distinction between the two. Both are undesirable and lead to massive human suffering.

Tell me again about the massive human suffering in Canada. That never gets old.

The welfare state is unsustainable and will collapse sooner or later and then all that you will have left is a bunch of impoverished, government-dependant angry mobs. A crisis.

The irony is that Canada's actually balanced their budget in the past few decades, is on on track to do so again by 2015. That means a deficit of zero, earning a surplus, paying down our debt. We've been more successful at doing so than the US has been. While maintaining our welfare state and universal health care and all the other socialist goodies.

Your claim here is just a piece of anti-socialist propaganda. A lie, if you will. It isn't true, not even a little.

Who said they will? You seem to forget the private safety nets: family, private charity and even church communities. Even if you're not religious surely you can at least see the benefits?

Again, we saw, during the Great Depression and the earlier industrial era, exactly how inefficient and insufficient those measures are. Widespread starvation, children forced to work so their parents could afford to feed them, etc.

You can't just ignore history. Private safety nets were not a solution.

[Nero Duskwind]

Everything I presented here can be backed up with facts. Based on the quick response time it seems you haven't followed the provided links.

If you're going to cite "facts," it would serve you well to cite more substantial sources than Wikipedia.

[Rukentuts]

If you're going to cite "facts," it would serve you well to cite more substantial sources than Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is fine, it has all its citations at the bottom of every article.

[mvaliz]

Tell me again about the massive human suffering in Canada. That never gets old.

Be careful! Many of my fellow Americans here have convinced themselves that they know the "truth" of your exorbitantly long waiting lists and death panels! :P

...I'd like to know how many of them have even ever met a Canadian, let alone visited the place. :P

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Wikipedia is fine, it has all its citations at the bottom of every article.

True...

The problem with Thunderwalk here is that he's taking Wiki articles and splicing his own opinion into them, arranging them in some conspiracy pattern to spin it to us.

[Rukentuts]

The problem with Thunderwalk here is that he's taking Wiki articles and splicing his own opinion into them, arranging them in some conspiracy pattern to spin it to us.

Ya, but still isn't Wikipedia's fault :P

[Gozzu]

Get the fuck out of here, really? Socialism works just fine in large parts of the world, but have fun in the 60's will you?

Edit: You know what? You may think that your flag symbolizes freedom, but when the majority of the world disagrees with you, you just might be in the wrong about it. Your little system hasn't worked better than Communism did, but you've convinced so much people it HAS to work, that we change our lives and our reality instead of the goddamn system, even though a certain percentage of the world being poor is part of capitalism.

There is a reason large parts of the world hate you guys, and you are without a doubt part of that reason.

[Nero Duskwind]

Wikipedia is fine, it has all its citations at the bottom of every article.

Citing Wikipedia is laziness at best and deceptive at worst. If there was anything substantial and worth merit in citing, why not go straight to the horse's mouth and cite the article(s) directly? The average reader isn't going to bother digging through a Wikipedia entry's citations to confirm veracity of what the author quoted. They're going to just nod and think "oh, if it's on Wikipedia it MUST be true!" Slipshod writing ftl.

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The problem with Thunderwalk here is that he's taking Wiki articles and splicing his own opinion into them, arranging them in some conspiracy pattern to spin it to us.

This x1000000000

[Naxere]

Deal with it. Socialism is deeply ingrained in the American governmental system. How the fuck do you think you're able to post on the internet? It was developed by DARPA. You can't bitch about a big government while using one of their crowning achievements (well you can but no one will take you seriously).

Let's not pretend that even if it was invented at DARPA (sure, they invented TCP/IP, but it was more than just DARPA that contributed to 'the Internet' as a whole), that the private sector wouldn't have figured it out.