Free Will: Illusion?

[diddle]

What chemical reaction produces a force existing outside that of cause and effect? At what point do atoms collectively gain autonomy? Are our consciences not just the collective effect of chemicals and electrical circuits?

Do you believe in free will or not, and why do you hold that belief?

Note: Before you bring up the go-to quantum physics experiment resulting in "multiple different outcomes", remember that the results of that experiment are attributed to human's lack of understanding of quantum particle behavior. It's not as if each particle is just randomly selecting a path, there is a set cause and effect underlying these seemingly random outcomes that we are simply unaware of and have yet to understand. Yet some jackass scientists chose to think "well we know everything there is to know about quantum physics of course, yet for some reason we don't understand the paths of these quantum physics - so rather than acknowledge there's simply more for us to understand let's just say they act randomly!"

[Velaniz]

More or less.

[Polybius]

This is a question I ask myself.

Oh the horrors of human conscience!

[Binary Speaker]

I think therefore I am.

[Underverse]

I think therefore I am.

....which has nothing to do with free will

[Sunseeker]

If free will exists, you asked this question because you think for yourself.

If free will doesn't exist, you asked this question because you were programmed to.

The end result is the same.

[Everett]

Give Free Will by Sam Harris a read. It's very short but incredibly precise and tackles this question very well.

[Annoying]

To some, the universe can be seen as a consequence of the deterministic physical interaction of atoms.

There's a pretty famous theoretical/quantum physicist who wrote quite a compelling argument for and against this. I read it a bit ago. I'll scrounge to see if I can find it.

[Cosmophile]

It's not as if each particle is just randomly selecting a path, there is a set cause and effect underlying these seemingly random outcomes that we are simply unaware of and have yet to understand."

How are you so sure? Quantum Field Theory is the most successful theory science has ever had. That being said, not every physicist accepts the "infinite outcome" explanation.

[slackjawsix]

This thread pops up every damn month, nobody can really say for sure, probably no free will but who cares really? -The end.

[Underverse]

How are you so sure? Quantum Field Theory is the most successful theory science has ever had. That being said, not every physicist accepts the "infinite outcome" explanation.

He isn't saying the theory is wrong. He's saying that what we decipher to be random events are more likely to be predetermined events that seem random to us because we don't know all of the conditions involved, similarly to flipping a coin, but on a subatomic level.

[diddle]

If free will exists, you asked this question because you think for yourself.

If free will doesn't exist, you asked this question because you were programmed to.

The end result is the same.

very respectable response. the answer is very irrelevant to living, for even if you do think free will is nonexistent that does not affect the fact you must live assuming its existence. i don't believe in free will, yet that doesn't stop me from "deciding" to answer this for example.

[ujx]

This thread pops up so much because someone just had this discussion in their Intro to Philosophy course and feel like discussing this groundbreaking new idea.

[Mormolyce]

Free will is a meaningless concept.

Note: Before you bring up the go-to quantum physics experiment resulting in "multiple different outcomes", remember that the results of that experiment are attributed to human's lack of understanding of quantum particle behavior. It's not as if each particle is just randomly selecting a path, there is a set cause and effect underlying these seemingly random outcomes that we are simply unaware of and have yet to understand. Yet some jackass scientists chose to think "well we know everything there is to know about quantum physics of course, yet for some reason we don't understand the paths of these quantum physics - so rather than acknowledge there's simply more for us to understand let's just say they act randomly!"

They behave randomly because the act of observation alters their behaviour. It isn't that we don't understand them yet, it's that we will never be able to because it's impossible.

[diddle]

Free will is a meaningless concept.



They behave randomly because the act of observation alters their behaviour. It isn't that we don't understand them yet, it's that we will never be able to because it's impossible.

This is absolutely true, but then it wouldn't be "random" as it's just another physical cause

This thread pops up so much because someone just had this discussion in their Intro to Philosophy course and feel like discussing this groundbreaking new idea.

your condescension would be more understandable if you had answered the question along with it

[Velaniz]

How are you so sure? Quantum Field Theory is the most successful theory science has ever had. That being said, not every physicist accepts the "infinite outcome" explanation.

He isn't the party that's 'so sure' of something they aren't qualified to be sure about, here.

[Cosmophile]

They behave randomly because the act of observation alters their behaviour. It isn't that we don't understand them yet, it's that we will never be able to because it's impossible.

Precisely this. There is no way for us to observe anything on the quantum level in their natural patterns. The very act of observation alters the outcome.

[Sunseeker]

very respectable response. the answer is very irrelevant to living, for even if you do think free will is nonexistent that does not affect the fact you must live assuming its existence. i don't believe in free will, yet that doesn't stop me from "deciding" to answer this for example.

The only discernible difference between free will existing and it not, is that in the latter you can see the end coming.

So, I suppose if you like suspense...

[crzyman007]

I think therefore I am.

I am therefore I think. Without being first you cannot think.

Whoever said that quote didn't think it too deeply. How ironic.

[Lolretadin]

Do you believe in free will or not, and why do you hold that belief?

Note: Before you bring up the go-to quantum physics experiment resulting in "multiple different outcomes", remember that the results of that experiment are attributed to human's lack of understanding of quantum particle behavior. It's not as if each particle is just randomly selecting a path, there is a set cause and effect underlying these seemingly random outcomes that we are simply unaware of and have yet to understand. Yet some jackass scientists chose to think "well we know everything there is to know about quantum physics of course, yet for some reason we don't understand the paths of these quantum physics - so rather than acknowledge there's simply more for us to understand let's just say they act randomly!"

1) Yes, because physics tells us that the Universe isn't deterministic. See below.

2) First bold has nothing at all to do with free will, no one would bring it up.
3) Some jackass internet goers make generalizations and claim things that are completely untrue.
4) No respectable physicist does that, your lack of understanding is showing.

- - - Updated - - -

I am therefore I think. Without being first you cannot think.

Whoever said that quote didn't think it too deeply. How ironic.

The quote wasn't about cause and effect. It was an attempt to prove that they exist, which they know they do because they can think.