The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[Deleted]

I like that the story isn't black or white at the moment. Sadly there are still characters who are annoying goody two shoes (Anduin) or typical classic movie villians (Garrosh, after his personality switch), but atleast we can argue whats wrong and whats right.

[Aquamonkey]

Dave Kosak flat out said she didn't want to just kill them all.

No. He didn't say anything about her personal feelings. He just clarified what she was telling Varian to do.

True, but suggesting to kill everyone in the room is rather shady, even if they rebelled against Garrosh and his warmongering.
She didn't say kill. She said dismantle. She asserted that the Horde should no longer self-govern. (Source)

Attempting to forcibly dismantle the leadership of the Horde would just lead to drawing out the war. Which would cause casualties on both sides.

[Florena]

No. He didn't say anything about her personal feelings. He just clarified what she was telling Varian to do.

True, but suggesting to kill everyone in the room is rather shady, even if they rebelled against Garrosh and his warmongering.
She didn't say kill. She said dismantle. She asserted that the Horde should no longer self-govern. (Source)

Attempting to dismantle the leadership of the Horde would just lead to drawing out the war. Which would cause casualties on both sides.

Yes but a prolonged war != genocide.

[Traveler Voltin]

No. He didn't say anything about her personal feelings. He just clarified what she was telling Varian to do.

True, but suggesting to kill everyone in the room is rather shady, even if they rebelled against Garrosh and his warmongering.
She didn't say kill. She said dismantle. She asserted that the Horde should no longer self-govern. (Source)

Attempting to forcibly dismantle the leadership of the Horde would just lead to drawing out the war. Which would cause casualties on both sides.

agreed. which would cause so many loses the next time the burning legion showed up. azeroth would fall.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes but a prolonged war != genocide.

That's the compromise I was referring to in my previous post:
"I think she'd still prefer to wipe them all out, but would settle with killing a bunch of them while continuing the war to dismantle the Horde. "

[Florena]

agreed. which would cause so many loses the next time the burning legion showed up. azeroth would fall.

I don't think anyone's arguing Jaina's position would have been the best one for Varian to take there, but to accuse her of wanting to simply exterminate the horde races is a bit much.

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That's the compromise I was referring to in my previous post:
"I think she'd still prefer to wipe them all out, but would settle with killing a bunch of them while continuing the war to dismantle the Horde. "

And what makes you think she still wants to wipe all of them out? What makes you think that after Tides of War she wants to exterminate every man woman and child in the Horde?

[Traveler Voltin]

I don't think anyone's arguing Jaina's position would have been the best one for Varian to take there, but to accuse her of wanting to simply exterminate the horde races is a bit much.

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And what makes you think she still wants to wipe all of them out? What makes you think that after Tides of War she wants to exterminate every man woman and child in the Horde?

she damn well knew the horde wouldnt be dismantled so easy. besides she wouldnt have made it out that room alive. varian and tyrande would have lived if fighting started.

[Aquamonkey]

And what makes you think she still wants to wipe all of them out? What makes you think that after Tides of War she wants to exterminate every man woman and child in the Horde?

I'm not saying she'd really act on that feeling. Just that she really hates them and wouldn't shed any tears if suddenly they all died the next day.

[Florena]

she damn well knew the horde wouldnt be dismantled so easy. besides she wouldnt have made it out that room alive. varian and tyrande would have lived if fighting started.

You sure? Alliance version at least the last time I did Garrosh in lfr it looked like the Alliance had more soldiers in the room. Plus Jaina, one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth, Tyrande, the chosen of Elune, Mekkatorque, whose engineering frooze half a room full of orcs, and Anduin/Varian. Now would they have won? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be far from an easy victory for the Horde in that room.

[Arrashi]

I don't think anyone's arguing Jaina's position would have been the best one for Varian to take there, but to accuse her of wanting to simply exterminate the horde races is a bit much.

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And what makes you think she still wants to wipe all of them out? What makes you think that after Tides of War she wants to exterminate every man woman and child in the Horde?

I think its more about her being able to commit genoicide rather than wanting to commit it right now. In tides she clearly shown she is capable, and this is line you cross only once.

[Traveler Voltin]

You sure? Alliance version at least the last time I did Garrosh in lfr it looked like the Alliance had more soldiers in the room. Plus Jaina, one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth, Tyrande, the chosen of Elune, Mekkatorque, whose engineering frooze half a room full of orcs, and Anduin/Varian. Now would they have won? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be far from an easy victory for the Horde in that room.

Sylvanas's has a banshee wail that stops magic. Lothermar may be a ranger but knows spell breaker abilities. i also believe someone said he has an actually spell breaker with him. Vol'jin has big bad voodoo and the Loa god of death guarding him. i didnt say the horde would win. i said only Varian and tyrande would make it out alive. i expect horde leader losses too. namely thrall. Baine, and maybe gailywax. that room would have been a blood path.

[Aquamonkey]

You sure? Alliance version at least the last time I did Garrosh in lfr it looked like the Alliance had more soldiers in the room. Plus Jaina, one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth, Tyrande, the chosen of Elune, Mekkatorque, whose engineering frooze half a room full of orcs, and Anduin/Varian. Now would they have won? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be far from an easy victory for the Horde in that room.

Yea, but the Alliance is helpless without Velen there.

About the soldiers: The cinematic has a continuity error. In the wide shots, there are no grunts, but then grunts step aside for the dramatic Vol'jin reveal. Afterwards, there are no grunts.

[Florena]

Yea, but the Alliance is helpless without Velen there.

About the soldiers: The cinematic has a continuity error. In the wide shots, there are no grunts, but then grunts step aside for the dramatic Vol'jin reveal. Afterwards, there are no grunts.

Outside of the cinematic where you see the two sides I think there were four grunts, while on the alliance sie there was a sentinel, a dwarf guard, and like 12 footmen, but I could have missed something, wasn't really counting while I was there.

[KrazyK923]

No. He didn't say anything about her personal feelings. He just clarified what she was telling Varian to do.

True, but suggesting to kill everyone in the room is rather shady, even if they rebelled against Garrosh and his warmongering.
She didn't say kill. She said dismantle. She asserted that the Horde should no longer self-govern. (Source)

Attempting to forcibly dismantle the leadership of the Horde would just lead to drawing out the war. Which would cause casualties on both sides.

...what? He's clarifying what she meant. Why would she say "dismantle" if she meant kill? Its not like she had any reason to lie to Varian in that moment. She does not want to kill the Horde. The fact that you quote that clarification and somehow still act as if she does is just baffling to me. Every time I think you're becoming reasonable you pull shit like this. I can't handle it. I'm out.

[KaPe]

You're not seriously thinking that all that "dismantling" would be solved with a brawl between racial leaders? They have entire armies outside and contrary to game mechanics, common soldiers are not useless fodder.

[Aquamonkey]

...what? He's clarifying what she meant. Why would she say "dismantle" if she meant kill? Its not like she had any reason to lie to Varian in that moment. She does not want to kill the Horde. The fact that you quote that clarification and somehow still act as if she does is just baffling to me. Every time I think you're becoming reasonable you pull shit like this. I can't handle it. I'm out.

I'm not saying she would actually go through with it or even advocate for extermination. There's a difference between internal feelings and action. I just think she'd prefer if the orcs were wiped out. Her hatred of them didn't evaporate. And she certainly won't shed any tears for any that would've died in the conflict to dismantle the Horde.

[Florena]

You're not seriously thinking that all that "dismantling" would be solved with a brawl between racial leaders? They have entire armies outside and contrary to game mechanics, common soldiers are not useless fodder.

No, I'm not. But that's where the fight would start, and if bliiz comments are to be believed the Alliance was the stronger force after the fall of Garrosh. I'm not saying the battle would have been won there, but if the Alliance had won the battle in the throne room the horde forces would be without their leaders and likely have difficulty dealing with the alliance.

[Thage]

While I agree her reaction is natural and makes sense, nothing justifies racism and genocide.

She doesn't want the Horde running itself anymore, and she'd have a good point if another orc were in charge--among orcish Warchiefs, Thrall is blatantly the exception rather than the rule when it comes to not being kind of an undiplomatic jackass, with Doomhammer straddling the line due to the situation he inherited from Blackhand. Vol'jin, though, has a track record of knowing when to swallow his pride and talk truces, which is likely the only reason Jaina kept it to gossiping with the Alliance adventurers about thinking Varian was making a mistake. If another orc took the throne she likely would have pushed Varian harder to annex the Horde and deal with the fallout until things with the more moderate races (read, everyone but the Forsaken and the orcs) settled and they pledged themselves to the Alliance. It was even what Wrathion was banking on so the faction war would hurry up and end so they could prepare for the (apparently imminent) Legion invasion.

Keep in mind, though, that wanting the Horde removed as a political entity because of its track record, and wanting every orc butchered and Orgrimmar turned into a Wal-Mart parking lot are two different things.

[Darth-Piekus]

Let's see on the one side we have Jaina with the powers of the Thunder King and the most powerful mage on Azeroth, the Wolf God Chosen and Empowered Varian Wrynn, Tyrande Whisperwind which went face to face with Archimonde not to mention had enough power to destroy all the defending Orc army in front of the Orgrimmar Gates, Gelbin Meccatorgue who has technology on his side, Anduin Wrynn which has shown plenty of times to have extraordinary powers that haven't fully discovered yet. I can't comment about Moira. Haven't seen Genn or Velen. Most important though is that they have a full army behind them ready to subdue the Horde leadership not to mention that the Alliance has the full might of Dalaran and every superweapon in store there which Jaina won't hesitate to use and of course the backing of every neutral faction in the game, the Pandaren and generally everyone who got hurt by Garrosh's actions.

On the other side you have Thrall the most powerful Shaman without his elements as they were twisted by Garrosh and he is now weak, Sylvannas who won't be able to do much cramped in there, Gallywix who as I saw him was without Weapons and completely useless, Baine who hasn't shown if he possesed any skill or magic yet and Lorthemar who hasn't done anything until now or shown any skill yet. Only Voljin could offer some resistance. They also had a few grunts and nothing more. The rebellion had a lot of casualties while the Alliance had a few only. The survivors were Refugees and a handful of soldiers. The Horde warmachine was destroyed, all of Garrosh's superweapons are destroyed ,their pride is shattered and all of Azeroth hates them.

There would be only one outcome. The Alliance would win inside there. The worst case scenario (like1% possibility)the Alliance could get would be some heavy casualties. As for the Horde. They would be without leaders as Florena said.

In any case Wrathion said that the Alliance would win eventually and unless anyone has any other proof that the opposite would be I tend to follow what the game says.

On another note now I noticed that most fanatic Horde fanboys? I believe that's the correct Word seemed pretty ok when Garrosh and his Horde threatened all of Azeroth but cried like Children when someone was opposing their plans for World domination. It's funny that those players who most of them discovered Warcraft when Cataclysm arrived demand every character who dared struck back their precious Horde become a villain and is deranged suddenly. First it was Varian, Then it was the Kirin Tor, then it was Jaina, then it was Taran Zhu and finally Wrathion. Anyone who took arms against Garrosh and the Horde suddenly was named as deranged,evil and should become a villain. On the other hand I have seen the same players using lots of bullshitty excuses and one liners for their beloved leaders like Sylvannas or Garrosh to justify their crimes. Aren't you tired and embarrased already?

In any case I shal close it here saying that doesn't matter if you believe for the crimes of the Horde is the Alliance's fault or not. The story now wrote that the Horde lost everything and must now obey the rules if they want a place in Azeroth cause there won't be a third chance. Enjoy the story as it's time to put those responsible on trial and explore the Warcraft Lore pre Warcraft 1.

[Traveler Voltin]

Let's see on the one side we have Jaina with the powers of the Thunder King and the most powerful mage on Azeroth, the Wolf God Chosen and Empowered Varian Wrynn, Tyrande Whisperwind which went face to face with Archimonde not to mention had enough power to destroy all the defending Orc army in front of the Orgrimmar Gates, Gelbin Meccatorgue who has technology on his side, Anduin Wrynn which has shown plenty of times to have extraordinary powers that haven't fully discovered yet. I can't comment about Moira. Haven't seen Genn or Velen. Most important though is that they have a full army behind them ready to subdue the Horde leadership not to mention that the Alliance has the full might of Dalaran and every superweapon in store there which Jaina won't hesitate to use and of course the backing of every neutral faction in the game, the Pandaren and generally everyone who got hurt by Garrosh's actions.

On the other side you have Thrall the most powerful Shaman without his elements as they were twisted by Garrosh and he is now weak, Sylvannas who won't be able to do much cramped in there, Gallywix who as I saw him was without Weapons and completely useless, Baine who hasn't shown if he possesed any skill or magic yet and Lorthemar who hasn't done anything until now or shown any skill yet. Only Voljin could offer some resistance. They also had a few grunts and nothing more. The rebellion had a lot of casualties while the Alliance had a few only. The survivors were Refugees and a handful of soldiers. The Horde warmachine was destroyed, all of Garrosh's superweapons are destroyed ,their pride is shattered and all of Azeroth hates them.

There would be only one outcome. The Alliance would win inside there. The worst case scenario (like1% possibility)the Alliance could get would be some heavy casualties. As for the Horde. They would be without leaders as Florena said.

In any case Wrathion said that the Alliance would win eventually and unless anyone has any other proof that the opposite would be I tend to follow what the game says.

seeing as there was 2-3 people in that room that makes spell casting useless jaina is screwed.