13163 haste break point?

[Lyvdra]

I recently am getting back into raiding after about a month hiatus and I've honestly no idea if I should be swapping from mastery stacking to haste. Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.

Apparently, I have not posted enough times to post a link to my armory. My druid's named is Zulfie on Wyrmrest Accord in the guild Metric System. I naturally understand entirely if nobody wants to take the time to look me up.

[zAFierCe]

Yeah you have the gear for the 13.1k haste cap, go for it mastery isn't as great anymore, but once you have the gear where you won't need to use haste gems to hit the 13.1k cap go back to mastery gemming

[Trubo]

I recently am getting back into raiding after about a month hiatus and I've honestly no idea if I should be swapping from mastery stacking to haste. Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.

Apparently, I have not posted enough times to post a link to my armory. My druid's named is Zulfie on Wyrmrest Accord in the guild Metric System. I naturally understand entirely if nobody wants to take the time to look me up.

Depends. It's been mathed to be a HPS increase over a straight Mastery build but if you're running a lot of throughput healers you probably won't notice that much of a difference. Also, are you 10 or 25?

[Lyvdra]

Currently I am a 10 that runs with either a monk and shaman, a monk and holydin, or a shaman and holydin as they're working on doing a rotating roster and insist on 3 healing.

[baskev]

mastery and haste are both strong. but if you have a good 1 target healer with you mastery is nice. but if you dodnt have one of those ( or 2 dps healers ) then haste is nicer for quick healing ( play style). numbers...it all depends on the fight, damage taken etc. But...on normals both builds are fine. on HC's i noticed my haste build pulls slight ahead. this more because i do a bit less overhealing and can use cast time healing spells faster.

as for 3 man healing in 10 mans...dont just dont if your guild is above 535 average item level. thok for dispels, garaklas and malkarok depending on damage taken etc. the rest can be 2 healed ( personaly heal everything 2 man right now). in some cases if you a decent druid healer even 1 healed with a disc priest or a monk fistweaving as dps/healer ( protectors, sha, klaxxi). running 10 mans with a good shamman or druid healer with 3 healers total is usseles. you end up with healers with full mana at end of fight, overhealing etc. And it will be 1 less dps..making fights longer.
but all depends on your group i would say this:
tank+dps good?? then 2 heal it with haste build.
tank/dps not so good?? then 2 heal it with haste build.
tank+ dps good but off healers suck ( replace them :P) nope 3 heal it with mastery build so your other healers have more room 2 learn 2 heal. but keep in mind 3 healing means longer fights and in SoO that means longer times in high damage phases that can cause a wipe or 6...or 10...etc:P

BUT 1 thing...dodnt go for 13k haste point if the following conditions arent met: THe sha trinket on normal with 2/2 upgrade. and decent haste gear ( not all gear needs 2 be haste but 7/10 items better be) and think about 545 tot 555 itemlevel. otherwise you will loose 2 much spellpower etc stats wise.
my current is:
Spell Power 38010, Haste 31.04% ,Crit 13.92%, spirit 14.5k, mastery 24 %. and i use int flask most of the time...yes i know spellpower is a bit low but have 2 intellect proc trinkets

[Bzl]

Yeah you have the gear for the 13.1k haste cap, go for it mastery isn't as great anymore, but once you have the gear where you won't need to use haste gems to hit the 13.1k cap go back to mastery gemming

This is plain wrong.

Mastery is still viable, and probably stronger if you rely more on cooldowns such as tranquility (because mastery buffs tranq, and haste doesnt).

If you dont rely on tranqulity, then haste vs mastery is pretty equal in terms of hps. Neither has DR. The only thing that speaks in favor of haste, is that its going to be hard to keep 3043 HBP once you reach 570+, unless you have been lucky with item drops.

Search on the forum for "13163" and you'll find around 50 threads on the subject with math on it.

[Alltat]

Yeah you have the gear for the 13.1k haste cap, go for it mastery isn't as great anymore, but once you have the gear where you won't need to use haste gems to hit the 13.1k cap go back to mastery gemming

I think you've misunderstood why people go for 13k. Nothing has changed about our stat weights. It's still int > enough spirit > haste to breakpoint > mastery > crit > more haste > more spirit. The only difference is that with better gear, another useful haste breakpoint has been reachable. "Useful" breakpoint in this content pretty much being defined as "one that adds an extra tick to Rejuvenation".

[baskev]

This is plain wrong.

Mastery is still viable, and probably stronger if you rely more on cooldowns such as tranquility (because mastery buffs tranq, and haste doesnt).

If you dont rely on tranqulity, then haste vs mastery is pretty equal in terms of hps. Neither has DR. The only thing that speaks in favor of haste, is that its going to be hard to keep 3043 HBP once you reach 570+, unless you have been lucky with item drops.

Search on the forum for "13163" and you'll find around 50 threads on the subject with math on it.

....haste does give extra ticks on tranquility..........just look at all the haste cap charts.....

[Trubo]

....haste does give extra ticks on tranquility..........just look at all the haste cap charts.....

Only the HoT portion of Tranquility benefits from Haste; the channeled heal does not gain additional ticks and is the bulk of the healing done by Tranquility.

[baskev]

yeah....and we are talking about healing increase....so Extra ticks = healing increass??? yes less then the first portion.
but he was talking about the fact that mastery makes tranq stronger and haste doesnt.. ( according 2 him).
And dodnt think he needs 2 use healing cd's allot in 3 mans. and depends wich cooldowns he took in talent tree.

[Deleted]

yeah....and we are talking about healing increase....so Extra ticks = healing increass??? yes less then the first portion.
but he was talking about the fact that mastery makes tranq stronger and haste doesnt.. ( according 2 him).
And dodnt think he needs 2 use healing cd's allot in 3 mans. and depends wich cooldowns he took in talent tree.

Well... a mastery tranq still is much stronger than a haste-buffed tranq. Should be obvious why.

Still, I prefer the 13k Haste Breakpoint for several reasons:
a) stronger Rejuv, plain and simple => flexibility, you're not that dependent on other spells
b) results in faster mushroom growth if overhealing => more utility, win/win
c) Efflorescence ticks faster as well => stronger AoE healing
d) Last but not least, if I have to use direct heals, I prefer faster direct heals (more Rejuv ticks also proc more p4 bonus stacks, but that's just a minor perk)

As I wrote in another thread, as long as you can still get ~12k Spirit, you should go for the 13k haste cap, regardless of Mastery.

[Alltat]

yeah....and we are talking about healing increase....so Extra ticks = healing increass??? yes less then the first portion.
but he was talking about the fact that mastery makes tranq stronger and haste doesnt.. ( according 2 him).
And dodnt think he needs 2 use healing cd's allot in 3 mans. and depends wich cooldowns he took in talent tree.

Haste makes Tranquility marginally stronger if you reach a breakpoint. Mastery makes Tranquility significantly stronger no matter the amount of mastery you have. High haste is nice for steady constant healing with buffed Rejuvenation and Efflorescence. High mastery is nice for burst healing with buffed Tranquility, direct heals and shroom bloom.

[baskev]

do you guys even read my post? i said that its a healing increas i didnt say it was a better one. >>yes less then the first portion<<!!
and i was reply on my first post. in wich i told the same things as you guys.....but hey.....was only giving the same advice as you guys...ill shut up now...

[Thalur]

Haste makes Tranquility marginally stronger if you reach a breakpoint. Mastery makes Tranquility significantly stronger no matter the amount of mastery you have. High haste is nice for steady constant healing with buffed Rejuvenation and Efflorescence. High mastery is nice for burst healing with buffed Tranquility, direct heals and shroom bloom.

Shroom bloom does not benefit from mastery any more. And loading up shrooms is faster with haste build.
The rest is correct.

[Checksmix]

Shroom bloom does not benefit from mastery any more. And loading up shrooms is faster with haste build.
The rest is correct.

Which is why int stacking isn't that bad of an idea on fights like Garrosh where 30% of your healing is bloom!

[adynn]

This is plain wrong.

Mastery is still viable, and probably stronger if you rely more on cooldowns such as tranquility (because mastery buffs tranq, and haste doesnt).

If you dont rely on tranqulity, then haste vs mastery is pretty equal in terms of hps. Neither has DR. The only thing that speaks in favor of haste, is that its going to be hard to keep 3043 HBP once you reach 570+, unless you have been lucky with item drops.

Search on the forum for "13163" and you'll find around 50 threads on the subject with math on it.

Some of the other things that speak in value of haste;

• More meta/cloak/clearcasting procs per minute.
• Mastery stacking tends to scale poorly as you get more of it, as mastery stacks additively. So dropping a bunch of it for haste and still having the same or more throughput is going to make you scale better.

Which is why int stacking isn't that bad of an idea on fights like Garrosh where 30% of your healing is bloom!

You'd be stacking int for the base heal? IIRC the maximum charge on our mushrooms is a percentage of our health.

[theburned]

This is plain wrong.

Mastery is still viable, and probably stronger if you rely more on cooldowns such as tranquility (because mastery buffs tranq, and haste doesnt).

If you dont rely on tranqulity, then haste vs mastery is pretty equal in terms of hps. Neither has DR. The only thing that speaks in favor of haste, is that its going to be hard to keep 3043 HBP once you reach 570+, unless you have been lucky with item drops.

Search on the forum for "13163" and you'll find around 50 threads on the subject with math on it.

Please everyone ignore this guy he has no clue what hes talking about, except for mastery being viable.

Mastery does not improve tranq more than haste does as tranq scales with gear haste in terms of ticks, more ticks = more spread dots thus a stronger throughput, the tranq breakpoint is around 13k too so you will aim for that one and the rejuv one at the same time.
then he says that mastery has no diminishing returns which is just plain wrong, its purely additive bonus, being additive makes it have diminishing returns by default, unlike haste and crit which are both multiplicative, and mastery falls behind crit even at around 50% or 17k unbuffed mastery.
haste is also a cheaper throughput stat, costs 420 pr 1% while mastery is 480 pr 1%, only thing speaking against haste is that it gives very low mana effectiveness when not at a breakpoint, and also it doesnt increase the heal per spell, but the hps. Also you tend to have issues with the 3k haste breakpoint around 520 ilvl not 570.... at 570 it is close to impossible, and not worth it to even aim for the 3k even if you could make it.

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You'd be stacking int for the base heal? IIRC the maximum charge on our mushrooms is a percentage of our health.

I think he means for the efflorence, never seen bloom over 10%. Also going anything but mastery for heavy heals is stupid (until high values of mastery ofc.)

[Alltat]

Mastery stacking tends to scale poorly as you get more of it, as mastery stacks additively. So dropping a bunch of it for haste and still having the same or more throughput is going to make you scale better.

Note that haste rating also stacks additively. If you have X haste and get Y more, you're at (X+Y) haste. All stats stack additively with themselves. Intellect, haste, crit and mastery all stack multiplicatively with each other, though, so the others get more valuable as you get more of one of them. That doesn't mean that the lowest stat is necessarily the best, but it does mean that mastery and intellect become much better when you go from 3k haste to 13k haste. So you really don't want to go above 13163, but hopefully no one was considering that anyway.

You'd be stacking int for the base heal? IIRC the maximum charge on our mushrooms is a percentage of our health.

The maximum charge is essentially unaffected by your throughput stats, yes. Ideally you'll bloom it before it hits that, but that's going to depend heavily on the fight.

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Mastery does not improve tranq more than haste does as tranq scales with gear haste in terms of ticks...

There seems to be some confusion here. Tranquility does two different things:

- Direct smart healing while channeling. Heals a number of people (depending on raid size) for ~70k every two seconds. Haste will reduce the channeling time, but will not add any extra ticks to the channel.

- Lingering healing over time, applied to everyone healed by the direct heal. Ticks for ~15k every two seconds and stacks with itself. Lasts 8 seconds and does gain additional ticks from haste breakpoints.

Each of these accounts for roughly half of Tranquility's healing. Both of them scale with intellect, mastery and crit. Only the second part benefits from the Tranquility breakpoints.

[druci]

tbh Haste is still one of the best stat for any class, is a static grow in either dps or heals, while mastery work differently on different classes it has great benefits.

How I see mastery is how well your other main secondary stats are.

In this case as a druid healer. haste break point is pretty much your main secondary stats, regardless which haste point you take it to

as ilvl and gears increases so does haste break point, and the next logical step is the 37.52% aka 13163 break point.

while it is always nice to have haste, one can not neglect your mastery. And as a druid mastery is a direct translation to your healing power. because every % of mastery = extra % of healing you do.
There is no point having high mastery if you don't have the haste to push it out fast, while is nice you might get 2 ticks off your 40% mastery, your other healer or healers might already recover the rest of that health and make your remaining ticks completely useless hence why druids are natural at overhealing.

If you have the haste to push the ticks in faster, you get more heals in the same space of time, regardless how much haste you have. your tick length is always the same in most cases, I think tranq length much shorter ( but that's another story).

On my druid named Druci at Proudmoore, you can clearly see I have stacked my haste to 37.52% buff or rather 31% or so unbuff. and stack as much mastery with it I raid buff at 35% mastery. I guess the real question is, how good are your gears, how lucky are you with drops and plain just how well you can fine tune your stats to match your style and be able to push out heal that benefit the raid/group.

In a 10men many say is nice to have mastery, but I think that really depends on your healing partner, In SoO my other healer is a shaman and we share the chart, no one do insanely more so than each other, this shows 2 things, we are good healers coz we match each other heal for heal, and also that our heals compliment each other very nicely. I would destroy priests and paladins in heals on my spec atm. But that could just be I haven't had the opportunity to run with a really good priest or paladin yet. At the moment shaman are the only healing cast that gives me a run for my money.

If your healing partner is any good chances are he is clue and quick and will get his cast in faster than yours. Hence why haste is so good IMO. because it really doesn't matter how freaken fast we cast, our heals is limited to the time it takes for the ticks to roll out. If you can roll yours out faster, you win. right?

other trick for low haste and mastery build is using the new spell Gensis which dramatically decreases the length of the rejuv by 400% this pretty much bring a 12sec rejuv tick to 4sec. so if a single rejuv from 1-12sec do a total 500k heals, your 500k comes out in 4sec instead. But using such spell can damper your mana. so use it wisely. It is one of my favourite spell to use if I am waiting for my mushroom cooldown or wildgrowth in a heated healing situation.
Spread you rejuv around, and hit genesis and everyone's rejuv finishes their tick in 4secs. ( note: the more you put rejuv on the shorter the other tick timer left on the previous rejuv that was applied. so use it at most like 4 targets otherwise by the time you do the 5 rejuv on and start the genesis process your first rejuv you applied might already have like 3sec left which is a waste. (understand?)

I guess the point here to my knowledge atm that haste own mastery, but you can't neglect mastery while trying to reach the haste cap. no point in pushing 13163 haste when your mastery is useless that you heals coming out a tiny little ticks. However is well worth loosing 10% mastery for 5% haste. at the very least have atleast 25% mastery if you are trying out for the 13163 haste cap. This will make it worth while.

note: Prior to moving to 37.52% haste, I was at 12.5 something %, and have 40% mastery, that was nice. but when I dropped 15% mastery for 37.52% my heals never looked better and the fact that my global cooldown is lower, all my other spells are like 1sec even with my rejuv global cooldown. and the short cast time of everything else make it truly epic.

Hope the insight helps.

[adynn]

I think he means for the efflorence, never seen bloom over 10%. Also going anything but mastery for heavy heals is stupid (until high values of mastery ofc.)

In heavy damage, stacked up fights I've seen the bloom go to around ~25% of my healing if I use it proactively. It does have 100k+ worth of base heal per person which is what would be affected by intellect I imagine (whereas not mastery/haste).

Note that haste rating also stacks additively. If you have X haste and get Y more, you're at (X+Y) haste. All stats stack additively with themselves. Intellect, haste, crit and mastery all stack multiplicatively with each other, though, so the others get more valuable as you get more of one of them. That doesn't mean that the lowest stat is necessarily the best, but it does mean that mastery and intellect become much better when you go from 3k haste to 13k haste. So you really don't want to go above 13163, but hopefully no one was considering that anyway.

Indeed, although I was lazy and didn't elaborate here.