10 man garrosh normal composition help!!

[Deleted]

Hello fellow MMO-Cers
My guild is a casual guild, we started raiding pretty late into 5.4 and we got to Garrosh last week Hoorray! (we 're casual but by no means bad, don't be hatin this is a big step for us )
So our team comp is this:
Prot pala (me)
Prot warr
2x Destro locks (beast dps)
Bm hunter
Frost/Fire Mage
Ele Shamman
Disc priest
Resto druid
Resto shamman

Now we tried this the first week with 3 healers and it kinda worked out but not really. The problem was that even though the dps is fairly good (everyone above 250-280k with the locks always being above 320k) with 3 healers it was slowed down and we ended up having him at about 28% after a third dream phase and thats about where we wiped. We tried having our shamman go ele but his dps is mediocre cause he doesnt have very good ele gear. The healers also seemed to have a pretty big problem. When we switched our druid over to kitty and had the disco priest heal with the shamman it went a lot better. We had him at 31% by the end of the second dream phase but thats when we wiped due to the empowered whirlwind corruptions. It was kinda weird since we ended up comming out of the dream phase to be immidiately welcomed by a weapon + whirlwing 2 seconds after so we didnt really have time to spread.
Anyway the 2nd time it ended up being better and our best try today was at around 22%. The whirlwind corruption is what normaly wipes us.
The healers werent really used to 2 healing it so they didnt have very good synergy but that could be fixed with a couple more tries.

So I ask for your help here fellow raiders. The option of changing our group is out of the question since we re casual and our raiding enviroment is very happy and good atm
Should we go for 2 heal or 3 heal? If we 2 heal what can our healers do to better maintain their mana? Which 2 healers should we have 2 heal it?
Is there a mechaninc that we could possibly be missing/doing wrong? (I forgot to mention that ofc we always get the dmg reduction from the bubbles in the dream phases so thats not an issue) Should we assign the healers if we are 2 healing the fight?
Any help would be welcome
Thank you very much in advance,
Your local tankadin,
Apollwn

PS: If you want me to be more specific about something that you are willing to help me with just tell mein the comments bellow

[Kraineth]

Can't say much without logs, but if you're raid is pulling 280K+ each then there is no way you are getting more than 2 realm phases. I've carried 2 sub 180K dps through that fight and pushed garrosh to last phase right after the second realm phase.

There is also no reason to run 3 heals, the raid damage over the course of the fight is insanely low, as is the mana requirements. Im talking healers who pump out 200K+ hps only needing ~90k for the entire fight.

On our very first kill week 1 of the tier we had our 3rd healer go ele and his dps sucked, but 3 heals just is not needed unless you guys are hugging the boss during whirlwind the damage is laughable

[Deleted]

1. Your comp is fine. No melee and 2 locks almost too good.

2. 2 heal is unless you are severally undergeard.

3. Won't matter much which of your healers 2 heal it. I'd say which ever healer had the best dps gear, go dps.

What exactly is killing people?

[Senka]

We seriously need a log because we already know that either you're lying about the DPS or you're looking at the overall DPS for the fight (which would include massive AoE DPS) instead of the second part of the fight. So that's why we need something unbiased that we can look through. Yes, I know overall DPS should balance out from the AoE DPS, but the first part of the fight can still inflate it with how massive it can be if people are trying to pad the meter.

Without a log to look at, my best guess is people are getting hit by Empowered Whirling Corruption (the pink swirls). That cannot happen ever. If it's truly just the Whirling Corruption damage, then there's 3 possibilities or any combination of them:

-People are being really stupid and not getting at least 25 yards away from Garrosh (which is truly stupid given that there's a default UI warning AND a cast time for it, and it appears you have no melee to even worry about)
-People literally do not know how to play their class and as a result aren't using damage reduction abilities (which makes me wonder how you got to Garrosh since Thok should have tested that)
-Healers just aren't even trying (least likely scenario)

I'm sorry if I sound harsh.

[Deja Thoris]

I pretty much agree with what the others are saying. If you are pulling those dps numbers you won't get that many transitions unless the farseers heal the adds for 2 minutes and you all AoE your nuts off without killing anything. Post logs if you want proper help.

[Deleted]

The raid does seem to take a big damage shot at whirlwind corruption (only when its empowered). Also about the logs, I have no reason to lie to you. Maybe that's a noob thing but I just normaly look at recount at the end of the wipe for the current fight and not overall. Everytime I look at it I make sure it's on current attempt.
The locks pull insane numbers with the aoe. Since we pump lust at the start one of em is even close to 800k-1mil for the first few seconds of the fight. Then a stable around 400-450k with the aoe, 320-340k without it.
It's probably that people are getting destroyed by the corruptions due to being stupid and probably the healers overhealing more than they are supposed to. Our shamman told us today that he can probably solo heal the intermission phases so that should give our priest a break while we re in there. Last question that I have is, should we destroy the weapons immidiately or do what some other guilds I ve seen do and start by placing them on the back side of the room and just not bother with them at all?

[Senen]

So I ask for your help here fellow raiders. The option of changing our group is out of the question since we re casual and our raiding enviroment is very happy and good atm
Should we go for 2 heal or 3 heal? If we 2 heal what can our healers do to better maintain their mana? Which 2 healers should we have 2 heal it?

Two heal is fine.
If you have enough dps (Garrosh at 30-35% BEFORE the second dream phase), you can try to BL right after the first Empowered Whirlwind (after the adds have been killed, so that everyone can be full dps on the boss) to reach p3 before the second one. That would mean that you'll only have to deal with two Empowered Whirlwind during the entire fight, but the p3 will be a bit longer and you'll eventually have to deal with two Empowered MC (depends on your dps).
As we wiped A LOT on Empowered Whirlwind, we found this strat to be easier for us. So, if that's what kills you every time, maybe it is worth a try for you too.

Also, 2-healing the fight means you need a proper raid cooldown rotation for Whirlwinds, from both your healers AND your dps. Devotion Aura, Banner, Healing Totem, Ancestral Guidance, etc, they have plenty of tools to help healers. You have to coordinate them.

[Deleted]

Two heal is fine.
If you have enough dps (Garrosh at 30-35% BEFORE the second dream phase), you can try to BL right after the first Empowered Whirlwind (after the adds have been killed, so that everyone can be full dps on the boss) to reach p3 before the second one. That would mean that you'll only have to deal with two Empowered Whirlwind during the entire fight, but the p3 will be a bit longer and you'll eventually have to deal with two Empowered MC (depends on your dps).
As we wiped A LOT on Empowered Whirlwind, we found this strat to be easier for us. So, if that's what kills you every time, maybe it is worth a try for you too.

Also, 2-healing the fight means you need a proper raid cooldown rotation for Whirlwinds, from both your healers AND your dps. Devotion Aura, Banner, Healing Totem, Ancestral Guidance, etc, they have plenty of tools to help healers. You have to coordinate them.

Thank you that was very very helpful and nice
We have 3 full hours to try him today so I ll update you guys on wether we killed him or not! Thanks a lot for the advice keep em comming

[vitoc]

We have a similiar setup.

My biggest tip is STOP with the AOE. Always just singletarget Garrosh, and perhaps some on the farseer. Never attack the regular adds.
I as a prot warrior, "solo" tank p1. I grab all the adds + Garrosh. My vengeance is insane at that point, and i kill the adds with just TC and DR and some revenge hits.
Dont gimp your DPS by AOEing.
With this amount of Vengeance, i as prot warrior always "win" the damagemeter. Again, on Garrosh. I dont care about the adds.

And you have lots of raidCDs for emp whirling corruption. Use them. (You should really only get 1 in p2)
We usually pop 3 raidCDs for the first emp corruption, and all personals for the 2nd. (2nd should be in p3)
We kill all axes in p1, p2 none in p3.

[Deleted]

I would suggest trying it with 2 healers, we are running with either a disk priest + resto druid or disk priest + resto shammy, we also always have one melee (we have too little ranged signups we always have atleast one melee)

[Deleted]

Thank you again guys for the wonderful advice
Now, one last question. Since it seems like our resto druid will be going kitty for the encounter, should she be going back to minimize the dmg from the whirlwind corruption when he casts it or should she not bother and just pop a cd?

[Raiju]

pop a cd if you can handle it. she'll naturally want to move out for the empowered ones to catch the add without tanks getting it but before then just maximize dps

[Deja Thoris]

Thank you again guys for the wonderful advice
Now, one last question. Since it seems like our resto druid will be going kitty for the encounter, should she be going back to minimize the dmg from the whirlwind corruption when he casts it or should she not bother and just pop a cd?

She should be going HoTW and moving away and tranqing one if you have trouble with the empowered ones. Ideally she should HoTW a little before and blanket some rejuvs if you really struggle.

[Madisyn]

Our healing comp is pretty much what you have - in the end, we went with a resto druid + resto Shaman comp for our first kill simply because people were taking way too much damage during empowered whirlwinds and standing in swirlies. Where my other raid team killed him with a Disc Priest + Druid combo because well, people weren't being derps and we didn't need as many cds to push through those phases.

Druid + Shaman

First empowered whirlwind (our resto druid used sym on the shaman so she could move while tranqing) -tranq - Second one - healing tide plus spiritwalker's

Druid + Disc

Tranq from druid and spirit shell on cd from our disc (if I remember correctly, I was able to spirit shell both empowereds and binding heal)

One thing I had both of my raid groups do - once the empowered whirlwinds ended and adds came up, I had them make their way back towards the tanks while killing their adds - this made it much easier to handle mc's

When we pushed to p3 - we popped lust right as he was transitioning and moved the group (minus tanks) to a predetermined area - let empowered weapon hit - move into tanks for mc's, then ran back out and spread for whirlwind - shaman was able to use ascendance and heal through it while our druid spammed whatever it is that druids do...lol

When I healed as disc - I just barrier on the tanks for that first whirlwind in p3 - had spirit shell up on players and used binding heal as needed along with bubble spam (I really didn't have any other thing to use - again, people have to not stand in swirlies)

By this point (p3) - one of our tanks picked up adds - dps stayed off them - he pulled the adds semi close to the tank with garrosh and swapped at 5 stacks (this is the amount of stacks we determined they could live through without much need for healing cds), they made sure they didn't kill any adds - then rinse and repeat - once the weapon was thrown out for the 2nd time - move back into tanks for mc's and spread back out once mc'd people were handled - by this time we had a few raid cd's up - healing tide and tranq were used to heal through the 2nd empowered corruption - and then he was dead

As disc the only thing I can say - prayer of mending on cd - spirit shell right before empowereds - and I personally glyphed binding heal for this fight, made it much easier to handle fast heals on people. Divine Star is so OP on this fight

Have your ele shaman use healing tide during one of the empowered's, it may not be much, but it helps - he can also off heal if needed (chain heal/healing surge) it may not seem like it helps, but it really does. Also have your kitty (if it's your druid going dps for this fight) to use a tranq - just move away from the boss and into range of the casters.

I should also mention that both of my groups had a spriest and a boomie so we had a VE and and additional tranq to work with. Our spriest used VE during one of our empowered's and our boomie used tranq once way too early, so it really didn't matter at that point.

Empowered's gave both of my groups problems - but once they realized not to stand in the swirlies and to separate the adds as they were killing them (during what we called p2), things went more smoothly. Something else that helped our groups out - once you know you're going to get empowered whirlwinds - just stack the weapons on one side of the room and don't touch them - it gives your dps more time on adds and Garrosh

P3, use the other side of the room for dealing with weapons and whirlwinds - ignore weapons/adds in p3 - handle mc's, tell the raid to stay out of swirlies and if they aren't a tank - they really should not be any where near the boss/tanks during whirlwinds

Also - and I laugh at this because our group failed miserably during p3 - since stuns do not work on mc'd people during p3 - just have your raiders always use interrupts during all mc's in each phase, this will get them out of the habit of stunning mc's and into the mindset of using interrupts.

[marklar]

if your dps is really that high, then you don't need to 2 heal it. we have the exact same healing comp as you do, and we've done it both ways. when we three heal, we just ask the disc priest to focus on dps more than healing and she also kills the engineer.

as a point of reference, what is your average dps on a fight like malkorok?

for empowered whirls, you have:
SS
HTT
tranq
ascendance + SWG
devotion aura
rally cry
AG (ele)
HTT (ele)
glyphed HST (ele & resto)

are you using all of these?

[Aly31]

Instead of making a new post on the exact same topic im going to use this one.
We just started on Garosh normal yesterday and tonight we had our first night on him. Im gonna post a log and i'd love to know what you guys think.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qyae8tsy56lk9ybl/
Notes:
I started to combat log a bit to late. Had somewhere like 18 wipes before i realized i wasnt logging them.
Yes i know our rogue is low. He just dinged 90 about 2 or 3 weeks ago, thats sort of our full rooster at the moment.
Our Disc is doing the engineers.
On our best attempt we got him to p3 with something like 70Mil HP left.
Any advice is more than welcome
Thank you.

[Deleted]

Sadly we did not get him down but your advice helped a lot
We no longer had problem with adds. We wiped a few times around 13-10%.
We should have him down next week hopefuly!

[Deja Thoris]

Instead of making a new post on the exact same topic im going to use this one.
We just started on Garosh normal yesterday and tonight we had our first night on him. Im gonna post a log and i'd love to know what you guys think.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qyae8tsy56lk9ybl/
Notes:
I started to combat log a bit to late. Had somewhere like 18 wipes before i realized i wasnt logging them.
Yes i know our rogue is low. He just dinged 90 about 2 or 3 weeks ago, thats sort of our full rooster at the moment.
Our Disc is doing the engineers.
On our best attempt we got him to p3 with something like 70Mil HP left.
Any advice is more than welcome
Thank you.

2 heal it. 12m46 is an age on that fight (your longest attempt) and just gets you more empowered whirling corruptions to deal with. Just look at the scary parts of the fight and see how you can deal with them with 2 heals.
They should be his cleave in the intermissions and the empowered whirlies.
For that you have ancestral guidance / devo aura and VE if the disc goes shadow.

If you choose to keep the disc healer disc then:
- Archangel uptime was low
- No spirit shell usage
- Low POM uptime, PoM is strong at certain times in that fight
- No barrier
- Used power infusion once in almost 13 minutes

Holy pala also only used divine favour and AW once in your longest attempt.

[marklar]

Sadly we did not get him down but your advice helped a lot
We no longer had problem with adds. We wiped a few times around 13-10%.
We should have him down next week hopefuly!

something that helps at the end: when you push into phase 3 (seems like you are getting there), just offtank the adds and burn the boss (don't ignore MC, though). if that's too much for your offtank to handle, kill one round of adds and then offtank from there.

[Deleted]

Now we tried this the first week with 3 healers and it kinda worked out but not really. The problem was that even though the dps is fairly good (everyone above 250-280k with the locks always being above 320k) with 3 healers it was slowed down and we ended up having him at about 28% after a third dream phase and thats about where we wiped.

There is no way you're getting three transitions with everyone above 250k and two locks consistently over 320k even when three healing.