What exactly are we "winning"?

[Redpanda]

The phrase pay 2 win has been thrown around a fair bit around in relation to a item thats not available to us. Granted thats the only item of its kind. Say that it does become available what do we "win", in relation to the game World of Warcraft? Quite frankly Im rather confused and I would like some clarification on the win part.

[Darsithis]

Nothing. World of Warcraft isn't a pay2win game.

A pay2win game is a game where you can purchase, using real money, items or gear that are usually obtained through other content. For WoW, this would mean buying raid gear at end level to give to your characters, or purchasing something in-game that allows you to achieve said gear easier than others. This could be something that lowers the difficulty of a boss or buffs your character beyond that which is obtainable in game, like say a 10000 strength flask instead of the usual 1k you can craft.

If you didn't mean an explanation - well, I guess the "winning" would be being able to coast through heroic-level content without any real challenge or skill...

[greysaber]

because it sounds better than 'pay 2 improve'.

also, 0/10. try harder.

[Redpanda]

because it sounds better than 'pay 2 improve'.

also, 0/10. try harder.

not trying to troll at all. Im just trying to get a feeler out there on a different mindset to understand where they might be coming from and why they feel the way they feel is all.

[Deleted]

It isn't about P2W; it's about a certain amount of items, mounts, pets, pots, etc that they include behind a pay wall instead of the actual game to people pursue them AKA micro-transactions.

[Deleted]

What exactly are we "winning"?

Free scorn?

[Darsithis]

It isn't about P2W; it's about items/mounts/X/Y/Z they decide to put behind a pay wall instead of the actual game to people pursue them AKA micro-transactions.

I'm not against having mounts in the store as long as there are still mounts to be found in-game that cannot be purchased. They have to be found either through RNG or through skill (heroic-raid-boss mounts).

[Annoying]

If you see leveling a character to max as a challenge, than it's pay2win in the sense that you're reducing the challenge of leveling buy halving the time it takes. Now, I'm not sure how anyone could see leveling a character as a challenge. In vanilla, sure, we had competitions on how fast we could level a fresh 60 on a new server, but those days are long gone.

[Daetur]

People need to stop throwing around "Pay to Win" to complain about the Blizzard store. It is not Pay to Win. Pay to Win is a shop model that allows you to buy items that give you a tangible combat benefit (or another benefit that makes content or PvP easier in some way). Pets and mounts and cosmetic gear do not do this. They give you no benefit in power over other players.

[Johnkie]

Nothing. World of Warcraft isn't a pay2win game.

A pay2win game is a game where you can purchase, using real money, items or gear that are usually obtained through other content. For WoW, this would mean buying raid gear at end level to give to your characters, or purchasing something in-game that allows you to achieve said gear easier than others. This could be something that lowers the difficulty of a boss or buffs your character beyond that which is obtainable in game, like say a 10000 strength flask instead of the usual 1k you can craft.

If you didn't mean an explanation - well, I guess the "winning" would be being able to coast through heroic-level content without any real challenge or skill...

And there is also loads of gold sellers, character levelers, arena rating boosters, RBG rating boosters... And yeah welll you can probably pay yourself to some HC raiding gear.
All of the above is "pay2win". IMO.

[Darsithis]

And there is also loads of gold sellers, character levelers, arena rating boosters, RBG rating boosters... And yeah welll you can probably pay yourself to some HC raiding gear.
All of the above is "pay2win". IMO.

That's not Blizzard. Blizzard doesn't condone any of that and will ban accounts using or providing those services. That's not pay to win, that's people breaking the TOS. I can't believe you'd even use that as an argument.

[MoanaLisa]

The whole concept of pay-to-win in WoW is shaky at best since there's very little to actually 'win'. It might have had some application to the game back when raids were not accessible to all but that's not really an issue any longer. Darsithis has it about right that if you can actually go out and buy best in slot current tier end-game gear or something that makes BIS gear easier to get that might be thought of as pay-to-win. That's not what's in the store. I'm not certain I would care in any case. People that could buy their way into great gear will easily enough be exposed as bad players if they're truly bad. If they are truly very fine players who would buy something like this for an alt I don't think it really matters.

Mostly it's none of my business. And I don't really have any interest in making it so. I play the game within my guilds, friends and family. The fact is that I don't engage in a lot of jealousy/envy and angst over what other players outside my circle are doing and especially not what they're wearing. When I do group up with other random players in LFG and the very occasional LFR I really only care that they do the best they can.

@UnifiedDivide: I've seen a couple of what I personally thought were hilariously oblivious posts back in the days when the store head pieces were first for sale claiming that Transmog gear was pay to win. Because looking good is winning I suppose. In a way I suppose that makes more sense than some of the other stuff.

[Deleted]

Stick a price tag on addons and the P2W cronies will suddenly shut up

[Deleted]

Tiger blood!

no such thing as pay 2 win in wow, (unless your break TOS by being boosted through arenas / raid content for real money)

[Annoying]

That's still not pay to win.

The Pay2Win phrase is thrown around so much now that it's mostly just used when something appears on the Blizz store that people don't like. I've seen people call buying a mount P2W. YOU WIN BECAUSE YOU CAN RIDE AROUND AS FAST THE MOUNTS I EARNED IN-GAME! >_>

Yeah, but getting a few weeks of head start on gearing due to the speed you level is kinda p2w. Think of it in the context of a new expac. There's a race to "win" world first raid boss kills. Those who can get to max level faster can get more attempts on the bosses than those who don't pay to get to max level faster. Hopefully this is considered when/if the boost goes live.

[Deleted]

I'll reiterate: it's not P2W, unless they introduce XP boosts. Sony and MS have recently gained some criticism by their players because of the introduction of micro-transactions in some of their games.

I get the impression that if the Celestial Steed or the Heart of Aspects mounts were drops by Algalon and DW respectively, they would never generate criticism. Why? Because they're available to anyone who has bought the Xpacs and pays a subscription, beyond other things. Same can be said about XP boosts (which I hope don't get available): you're paying for additional services that aren't "inside" the main game. The only way I can be almost equal to JoeBuyer is by using heirlooms and be in a guild.

Besides this, it's already shameful to have this kind of nonsense when you pay 12.99 per month. This kind of market exists to give revenue to free games and support online servers; implementing it in a subscription based game is pure greed.

[Tomtanks]

Yeah, but getting a few weeks of head start on gearing due to the speed you level is kinda p2w. Think of it in the context of a new expac. There's a race to "win" world first raid boss kills. Those who can get to max level faster can get more attempts on the bosses than those who don't pay to get to max level faster. Hopefully this is considered when/if the boost goes live.

I will never understand this logic. If someone has more money than time, and pays to get leveled faster (talking xp potion), that is not ok. But if someone has more time than money, and can log in for 20 hours a day and grind the levels out, that is ok? Not that I have either time or money, but I don't really see the difference. I can see why people might be upset if people could buy unique and overpowered weapons, but on the same hand, I cant see their point. What about the people who have time and can raid for top tier weapons that many people will never see? Doesn't that make those weapons unique and op to the people who will never be able to raid and acquire them? Why is that more fair? Do we not pay the same monthly subscription fee? Again, because one person may have more time than money, or vice-versa, that is ok? I have never seen someone post a logical or feasible answer to this question.

Overall I guess my biggest wish would be that people give me their time and/or money. That would be the best solution imo : )

[Annoying]

I will never understand this logic. If someone has more money than time, and pays to get leveled faster (talking xp potion), that is not ok. But if someone has more time than money, and can log in for 20 hours a day and grind the levels out, that is ok? Not that I have either time or money, but I don't really see the difference. I can see why people might be upset if people could buy unique and overpowered weapons, but on the same hand, I cant see their point. What about the people who have time and can raid for top tier weapons that many people will never see? Doesn't that make those weapons unique and op to the people who will never be able to raid and acquire them? Why is that more fair? Do we not pay the same monthly subscription fee? Again, because one person may have more time than money, or vice-versa, that is ok? I have never seen someone post a logical or feasible answer to this question.

Overall I guess my biggest wish would be that people give me their time and/or money. That would be the best solution imo : )

What about those with both time and money?
Person A: Time & Money
Person B: Time

The first 40 hours:
Person A grinds to 100 in 20 hours, has 20 hours to gear up for/attempt world first kills.
Person B grinds to 100 in 40 hours, and is now 20 hours behind person A in the race for world first.

As for the "more fair": This is a game that rewards effort with increased power. Everyone has the same opportunities, regardless of if they have the time to take advantage of them. Just because someone has more time to play a game than you, doesn't mean that you deserve the same rewards that they put more effort toward.

[MoanaLisa]

I will never understand this logic. If someone has more money than time, and pays to get leveled faster (talking xp potion), that is not ok. But if someone has more time than money, and can log in for 20 hours a day and grind the levels out, that is ok? Not that I have either time or money, but I don't really see the difference.

If one believes the game is supposed to set an example for working hard and putting out a lot of effort then it's a logical conclusion that anyone who avoids all the toil is cheating or 'winning' by Blizzard providing a way around that. That sets up the question as to whether or not a video game like WoW should ever be considered work. It's obvious that many people seem to think the game is more about work and efficiency than fun since the topic of 'fun' rarely gets raised here while you can't even count the number of posts glorifying work ethic and efficiency.

There are already ways to level to near end game in WoW and all it takes to do so is some money. Getting upset about the store is pointless in that regard. Again, it's all personal and not really anyone else's business. Don't play with strangers; stick with friends and guild mates and it won't be much of a problem.

[ComputerNerd]

I'll reiterate: it's not P2W, unless they introduce XP boosts. Sony and MS have recently gained some criticism by their players because of the introduction of micro-transactions in some of their games.

I get the impression that if the Celestial Steed or the Heart of Aspects mounts were drops by Algalon and DW respectively, they would never generate criticism. Why? Because they're available to anyone who has bought the Xpacs and pays a subscription, beyond other things. Same can be said about XP boosts (which I hope don't get available): you're paying for additional services that aren't "inside" the main game. The only way I can be almost equal to JoeBuyer is by using heirlooms and be in a guild.

Besides this, it's already shameful to have this kind of nonsense when you pay 12.99 per month. This kind of market exists to give revenue to free games and support online servers; implementing it in a subscription based game is pure greed.

XP boosts are not that, as RaF and SoR have not had the same reactions.
Speeding up what is a tiny portion of the lifespan of any long-term character is NOT giving any notable or permanent advantage.
People whine about only one means of increasing levelling speed while choosing very intentionally to ignore the others, because of being the latest bandwagon.
Just something else for people with a gripe to cling onto rather than coming up with something original and using their brains to come up with a good argument.

Yeah, but getting a few weeks of head start on gearing due to the speed you level is kinda p2w. Think of it in the context of a new expac. There's a race to "win" world first raid boss kills. Those who can get to max level faster can get more attempts on the bosses than those who don't pay to get to max level faster. Hopefully this is considered when/if the boost goes live.

And how long does it take the determined people to level nowadays ?
Hardly "weeks", but more like a few days. That is from nothing to level cap.
That's utter rubbish and you know it, so nobody will be getting several weeks of advantage, and really anyone levelling a new class would be gimping themselves due to being vastly under-geared and inexperienced.
There is NOTHING for blizzard to "consider" here.

A poor argument again.