Should gear in LFR be based on performance?

[Deleted]

performance being?

pulling top dps on the boss

but being last on the add you were supposed to swap to so the raid does not wipe?

Spamming heals and topping the meters?
Or healing economically and dropping those lifesaving well timed heals on the tank?

Moving out of fire quickly?
Interrupting?
CC'ing?
Taunt swapping correctly?

How do you judge performance?

in other words: No, its a stupid idea.

[urasim]

in other words: No, its a stupid idea.

Read the thread before posting. All your complaints have been answered in detail.

[Deleted]

How do you judge performance?

As you're not-so-subtetly implying, you can't.

The only place where you can accurately judge performance is on a patchwerk fight and you can ONLY judge the DPS roles.

There is no way to judge the performance of a healer based on metrics, nor a tank. Their gameplay isn't based on output.

[Deleted]

What LFR really need is a system that figures out who is AFK and punish them to hell (not literally). My main problem with LFR isn't the skill of the players, it's the fact that so many are AFK through the entire instance. And unless somebody catches them, they just haul a lot of loot without any effort. The AFKers are what make LFR such a toxic environment, not underskilled and badly geared players trying to do their best but still show a desire to improve.

I too think LFR should give rare quality loot with a reasonable iLvl. The only "epic" gear currently in game is the purple loot with a "Heroic" or "Heroic Warforged" tag on them. Any other purple gear is just welfare loot. LFR should still be a way to catch up on gear, but it shouldn't award purple loot.

[urasim]

As you're not-so-subtetly implying, you can't.

The only place where you can accurately judge performance is on a patchwerk fight and you can ONLY judge the DPS roles.

There is no way to judge the performance of a healer based on metrics, nor a tank. Their gameplay isn't based on output.

You can easily judge performance... How about that tank that just died because the other tank didn't taunt, how about standing in stuff that you shouldn't, how about standing to close to something that does more damage the closer you are(Exploding Iron star), how about NOT standing in stuff that you should, etc... The funny thing is all that is already being tracked and can easily be tracked and implemented into any mod that you want.

[Deleted]

You can easily judge performance... How about that tank that just died because the other tank didn't taunt, how about standing in stuff that you shouldn't, how about standing to close to something that does more damage the closer you are(Exploding Iron star), how about NOT standing in stuff that you should, etc... The funny thing is all that is already being tracked and can easily be tracked and implemented into any mod that you want.

Let me re-phrase - you can't judge performance on the metrics that are readily available.

Sure, I can setup a WoL log, do the fight and log it, sit through it and go through what was wrong and what was right.

But Im not going to do that for LFR. Neither are you, Id wager.

We were mostly talking numbers here. Recount and Skada.

If it were readily available and widely used, it'd be an amazing thing to have an addon that tracks these sorts of things.

But let it be said, that both tanking and healing are proactive and reactive roles that require quite a lot of from the player. Things like that can't be easily judged without having either hard facts (such as logs) or having someone observe.

[Deleted]

Should only punish the people who are afk or just auto attacking rather than punishing people in bad gear or bad at the game. Rewarding based on dps etc just means the better geared people will get the loot that they probably wont even need and the rest don't get any better which would mean lfr would take longer.

[Thimagryn]

Can you quote me saying you would get LESS of a chance to get loot? No? Okay. The rest of your points can be ignored because you're ignoring things and putting words in my mouth.

Lets make things clear. If you implement a system where doing something gives you more, then if you don't do it you will be getting less. Does this make sense?

So if you're a player who isn't up to snuff and you're not getting those bonuses that everyone else is getting, you're going to feel left out. I don't know how you see it in your head, but it's not all butterflies and rainbows when the game tells you you're doing it wrong and you don't qualify for easy loot.

Dishonorable kills system was to discourage people from killing and farming lowbies. It was later changed to make it so you wouldn't kill certain quest givers. Then it was removed entirely because it was being used to grief PvPers(I fell victim to this right as I was about to reach High Warlord). How do you not know the history of the game you play? I'd suggest you don't bring these things up if you don't have a clue about them. Thanks, and have a great day.

Exactly my point. People GAMED THE SYSTEM, which is ultimately what lead to its removal. What it originally was intended for and what it ultimately became are two different things. You have not considered the latter for your own idea, and that is the problem. You are still being naive thinking that tracking gameplay and rewards will promote better players. In practice, this has greater potential to lead to abuse of game (and system) mechanics and messing up the entire metagame.

LFR is easy enough so that most encounters are 1-tankable, given that the tank has good gear. The system you plan to implement will remove that entirely, since the offtank needs to get his 'taunt' quota. Playing properly isn't necessary for most of the mechanics in LFR, and playing it properly doesn't mean playing it well.

What about a situation when you're supposed to kill adds before downing the boss, but in LFR people burn the boss when they have enough DPS? If you implement a system that enforces killing the adds first, everyone will have to do it just to comply to the system. In the end, you're wasting time following arbitrary rules.

"one style of play" What? You mean playing the game the way it's meant to be played. You just want to be carried as much as possible and get all the things for free with no effort whatsoever. You can play the game and have fun and still do the bare minimum that people ask of you. It's broken, and it's getting worse. I used to love LFR, and now I think it's a waste of time, and a breeding grounds for inept players.

If the tanks end up dying and a DPS picks it up and offtanks for the rest of the fight, it is still considered a win. Messy, yes, but it is a win. In your system, no DPS will offer to stray outside their role. No one will try to save the fight if the tanks just go down, it's not in anyone's interest to redeem that fight if it means their chance of better reward is going to suffer for it. THAT is a waste of time.

[MoanaLisa]

I'll give this another try since I think the emphasis on getting people to play better--while well intentioned--is less important than taking care of the trolls who are AFK or there to cause problems. A lot of this has little to do with tanks/healers because I don't play those. That said:

1. For everyone: Disable Follow in LFR.
2. For DPS: Disable auto-attack in LFR. Inconvenient for melee but being a little more busy won't hurt.
3. For everyone: Raid leader gets a button to start a boss fight. No one pulling bosses and leaving unless it's the RL.
4. Auto-res 60 seconds after a death. If the entire group wipes--probably rare--then everything resets. You auto-res at a waypoint created for each boss (not the nearest graveyard), but would have to run back a ways to the fight. Each time you die your chance for loot drops by 15%-20% or so. If you stay at the waypoint too long--say 10 seconds--you die again. Takes care of the trolls who just run in, die and afk and at least would make some people a little more careful about standing in things if your chance for loot depends on staying alive and busy.
5. Some sort of very basic activity monitor that would clearly announce you as AFK if you went 15 seconds without casting/swinging your mace/whatever. 15 seconds after that, you're dead and back at the waypoint with reduced chances for gear. Would start when the fight starts and would end when the boss dies.

If you want to teach people the fights then Blizzard can add more instructions about what to do. When Nazgrim goes into defensive stance, it can say that and "Switch to damaging adds" or something. It might work but I'm skeptical.

I can see all sorts of problems with this but some of it would be a start, especially the first three. Complex monitors based on rotations and the rest will never happen for Raid Finder, nor should it. It's not that I'm against people learning to play better; it's more that Raid Finder is the very last place where anyone is going to learn all the stuff that people need to learn to raid well. Complicated systems are simply impractical and while interesting to talk about are unlikely to ever happen. Whatever it is needs to be kept simple and as much as possible binary (off/on) that applies generically across all fights. Any kind of system that tries to take boss mechanics and appropriate responses into account would necessarily need to be changed for every fight. Again, this would have to be easy and very generic--much like Raid Finder itself--to even get Blizzard to look at it.

[zoomgpally]

Just because someone is pulling low DPS or HPS doesn't mean they're not putting in effort- that's the problem with a solution like this.

Perhaps you could base it off of activity, but you can't base it off of numbers.

Then healers would just not heal people they don't like to reduce loot chances

[ComputerNerd]

Gear in LFR should be just like heroics. Same iLvl and rare colored loot

After all LFR is for seeing the content, not used to gear up for raids. LFR shouldn't be used to gear up

Rubbish, LFR is there for people unable to commit to traditional raiding.
Many people are there because they have no choice, not because thats all they want to see.
The colour of "epics" has never meant anything, even back in vanilla, so there is no reason at all why LFR gear should not be epic.

If LFR was "seeing the content", then nobody would raid normal or heroic.
Simple as that.
Those are not the same fights, they are not the same experience.

Numbers alone do not mean anything without context, as on some fights you can pad the numbers and be detrimental to the end result by not putting the output in the right places.

Also could those pulling lower numbers benefit more from the gear, actually increasing the gap should it be only based on performance.

If there are people afk'ing or simply not making effort to pull their weight, then they get away with it only because the rest of the raid lets them.
It should be up to the raid to make that undesirable, not upto blizzard to implement some automatic system to penalise players because others won't.

[Heladys]

I'll give this another try since I think the emphasis on getting people to play better--while well intentioned--is less important than taking care of the trolls who are AFK or there to cause problems. A lot of this has little to do with tanks/healers because I don't play those. That said:

1. For everyone: Disable Follow in LFR.
2. For DPS: Disable auto-attack in LFR. Inconvenient for melee but being a little more busy won't hurt.
3. For everyone: Raid leader gets a button to start a boss fight. No one pulling bosses and leaving unless it's the RL.
4. Auto-res 60 seconds after a death. If the entire group wipes--probably rare--then everything resets. You auto-res at a waypoint created for each boss (not the nearest graveyard), but would have to run back a ways to the fight. Each time you die your chance for loot drops by 15%-20% or so. If you stay at the waypoint too long--say 10 seconds--you die again. Takes care of the trolls who just run in, die and afk and at least would make some people a little more careful about standing in things if your chance for loot depends on staying alive and busy.
5. Some sort of very basic activity monitor that would clearly announce you as AFK if you went 15 seconds without casting/swinging your mace/whatever. 15 seconds after that, you're dead and back at the waypoint with reduced chances for gear. Would start when the fight starts and would end when the boss dies.

If you want to teach people the fights then Blizzard can add more instructions about what to do. When Nazgrim goes into defensive stance, it can say that and "Switch to damaging adds" or something. It might work but I'm skeptical.

I can see all sorts of problems with this but some of it would be a start, especially the first three. Complex monitors based on rotations and the rest will never happen for Raid Finder, nor should it. It's not that I'm against people learning to play better; it's more that Raid Finder is the very last place where anyone is going to learn all the stuff that people need to learn to raid well. Complicated systems are simply impractical and while interesting to talk about are unlikely to ever happen. Whatever it is needs to be kept simple and as much as possible binary (off/on) that applies generically across all fights. Any kind of system that tries to take boss mechanics and appropriate responses into account would necessarily need to be changed for every fight. Again, this would have to be easy and very generic--much like Raid Finder itself--to even get Blizzard to look at it.

This is good too. Credit to you for that.

[Deleted]

Just because someone is pulling low DPS or HPS doesn't mean they're not putting in effort- that's the problem with a solution like this.

Perhaps you could base it off of activity, but you can't base it off of numbers.

This. Base it off somehow by doing the right stuff.

I've seen lots of people just do auto-attacks or just stand afk. Way too often..

[Telrunya]

I would like to see some sort of reward for playing optimally. The system would check to see if a player's DPS was "good" based upon their ilvl and fight mechanics. A 5% increase in loot chance could be rewarded to the optimal DPS. Yes its far from perfect, but if it means quicker/smoother runs then so be it.

[jbombard]

I'll give this another try since I think the emphasis on getting people to play better--while well intentioned--is less important than taking care of the trolls who are AFK or there to cause problems. A lot of this has little to do with tanks/healers because I don't play those. That said:

1. For everyone: Disable Follow in LFR.
2. For DPS: Disable auto-attack in LFR. Inconvenient for melee but being a little more busy won't hurt.
3. For everyone: Raid leader gets a button to start a boss fight. No one pulling bosses and leaving unless it's the RL.
4. Auto-res 60 seconds after a death. If the entire group wipes--probably rare--then everything resets. You auto-res at a waypoint created for each boss (not the nearest graveyard), but would have to run back a ways to the fight. Each time you die your chance for loot drops by 15%-20% or so. If you stay at the waypoint too long--say 10 seconds--you die again. Takes care of the trolls who just run in, die and afk and at least would make some people a little more careful about standing in things if your chance for loot depends on staying alive and busy.
5. Some sort of very basic activity monitor that would clearly announce you as AFK if you went 15 seconds without casting/swinging your mace/whatever. 15 seconds after that, you're dead and back at the waypoint with reduced chances for gear. Would start when the fight starts and would end when the boss dies.

If you want to teach people the fights then Blizzard can add more instructions about what to do. When Nazgrim goes into defensive stance, it can say that and "Switch to damaging adds" or something. It might work but I'm skeptical.

I can see all sorts of problems with this but some of it would be a start, especially the first three. Complex monitors based on rotations and the rest will never happen for Raid Finder, nor should it. It's not that I'm against people learning to play better; it's more that Raid Finder is the very last place where anyone is going to learn all the stuff that people need to learn to raid well. Complicated systems are simply impractical and while interesting to talk about are unlikely to ever happen. Whatever it is needs to be kept simple and as much as possible binary (off/on) that applies generically across all fights. Any kind of system that tries to take boss mechanics and appropriate responses into account would necessarily need to be changed for every fight. Again, this would have to be easy and very generic--much like Raid Finder itself--to even get Blizzard to look at it.

I agree with most of this. You don't need to disable auto attack however, just don't include auto attacks when calculating activity to determine AFK status.

Also I like the idea of the raid leader being the only one that can start the fight, however it can be abused. "Hey give me lead real quick", "Here ya go", "...","..." "Dude, give lead back" "..." "Dude, give lead back or start the fight" "..." Generally if there is a way to abuse a system some ass hat will find it and abuse it.

[Giscoicus]

I'll give this another try since I think the emphasis on getting people to play better--while well intentioned--is less important than taking care of the trolls who are AFK or there to cause problems. A lot of this has little to do with tanks/healers because I don't play those. That said:

1. For everyone: Disable Follow in LFR.
2. For DPS: Disable auto-attack in LFR. Inconvenient for melee but being a little more busy won't hurt.
3. For everyone: Raid leader gets a button to start a boss fight. No one pulling bosses and leaving unless it's the RL.
4. Auto-res 60 seconds after a death. If the entire group wipes--probably rare--then everything resets. You auto-res at a waypoint created for each boss (not the nearest graveyard), but would have to run back a ways to the fight. Each time you die your chance for loot drops by 15%-20% or so. If you stay at the waypoint too long--say 10 seconds--you die again. Takes care of the trolls who just run in, die and afk and at least would make some people a little more careful about standing in things if your chance for loot depends on staying alive and busy.
5. Some sort of very basic activity monitor that would clearly announce you as AFK if you went 15 seconds without casting/swinging your mace/whatever. 15 seconds after that, you're dead and back at the waypoint with reduced chances for gear. Would start when the fight starts and would end when the boss dies.

If you want to teach people the fights then Blizzard can add more instructions about what to do. When Nazgrim goes into defensive stance, it can say that and "Switch to damaging adds" or something. It might work but I'm skeptical.

I can see all sorts of problems with this but some of it would be a start, especially the first three. Complex monitors based on rotations and the rest will never happen for Raid Finder, nor should it. It's not that I'm against people learning to play better; it's more that Raid Finder is the very last place where anyone is going to learn all the stuff that people need to learn to raid well. Complicated systems are simply impractical and while interesting to talk about are unlikely to ever happen. Whatever it is needs to be kept simple and as much as possible binary (off/on) that applies generically across all fights. Any kind of system that tries to take boss mechanics and appropriate responses into account would necessarily need to be changed for every fight. Again, this would have to be easy and very generic--much like Raid Finder itself--to even get Blizzard to look at it.

I would still like to see a negative impact for standing in avoidable stuff, and actual problems if people are doing the fight wrong. For example, if you stand in the shockwave on Naz, then you should get a lower % at loot. That is not something gear dependent in anyway. At the same time, interrupting adds, slowing ironblades, stuff like that is. Skill/preformance based. If you want to get gear you have to get better. Not just dps based. At the same time, stuff like Malkorok pools would need to be handled differently. How? idk.

Dying to Durumu's beam should get you 0 loot because I really just dont know how at this point people still die to it...

[Thimagryn]

I would like to see some sort of reward for playing optimally. The system would check to see if a player's DPS was "good" based upon their ilvl and fight mechanics. A 5% increase in loot chance could be rewarded to the optimal DPS. Yes its far from perfect, but if it means quicker/smoother runs then so be it.

A 5% increase in loot chance doesn't make players play any better than Satchels make tanks join LFR. We're still seeing 20+ minute queues. We'll still have derps in LFR.

[Giscoicus]

A 5% increase in loot chance doesn't make players play any better than Satchels make tanks join LFR. We're still seeing 20+ minute queues. You'll still have derps in LFR.

You are correct. It should be a 10% decrease for being bad.

[ComputerNerd]

So quick to say no...

If Blizzard weren't lazy they could track things like interrupts, DPS, HPS, tanks swaps, dispels, etc... Based around gear level. Increasing the chance to get items by a very small percent if you're pulling your weight. Maybe have a visual indicator showing a minimum of what you should be doing, and them showing a "great job" flash somewhere on screen when you beat personal bests.

The game right now is too rewarding for doing absolutely nothing. Something needs to change to make it so people WANT to make an effort.

Even with addons and the likes of World of Logs players often will misinterpret or misuse the numbers those provide.
There are simply too many reasons why numbers can be low to have an automated ranking of performance that can be guaranteed to be foolproof and not abusable.
People will work hard if others appreciate it, or if they feel its worth the effort.
People who cant move up any higher due to time commitment issues have no such incentive to improve.
Throwing gear isn't going to fix what is like a huge amount of issues, community driven.

[Bill Nye the Spy]

Rubbish, LFR is there for people unable to commit to traditional raiding.
Many people are there because they have no choice, not because thats all they want to see.
The colour of "epics" has never meant anything, even back in vanilla, so there is no reason at all why LFR gear should not be epic.

If LFR was "seeing the content", then nobody would raid normal or heroic.
Simple as that.
Those are not the same fights, they are not the same experience.

Numbers alone do not mean anything without context, as on some fights you can pad the numbers and be detrimental to the end result by not putting the output in the right places.

Also could those pulling lower numbers benefit more from the gear, actually increasing the gap should it be only based on performance.

If there are people afk'ing or simply not making effort to pull their weight, then they get away with it only because the rest of the raid lets them.
It should be up to the raid to make that undesirable, not upto blizzard to implement some automatic system to penalise players because others won't.

No where near rubbish. Flex is for people who can't commit to traditional raiding.

LFR is for experiencing the content. The only reason I raid normals and heroics is because the gear.

"If LFR was "seeing the content", then nobody would raid normal or heroic." Lol what? That's what it is. People do heroics for gear, not because they want to see the story again.
If you want to see the content, you better learn how to raid, or don't raid. It's simple. You can pet battle, flex, lfr, quest, level an alt, etc.

The point I was trying to make was LFR has become an extra step in gearing up alts, and its a bad one. That's why it should have the same ilvl as heroic dungeons, so you can choose between the two.