A question about Frost

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm worried even coming up with a topic like this but I've intended to do for a while. I am sure this is the sort of question that has devotees on both sides of the divide but I am curious.

I'm a blood Death Knight, magnificent tanking class. And I have Unholy as an offspec, tons of fun Unholy. Sometimes I find myself tempted to try Frost but something strikes me as odd.

As far as I can see, Frost is the only spec in the game where weapon choice affects gearing and rotation. 2h Frost DKs are supposed to use Obliterate and Dual Wielders are supposed to use Frost Strike.

2handers are supposed to value crit over mastery and for dual wielders it is mastery over crit.

I suppose what I want to ask, and I freely admit my ignorance on this as I only used Frost to level a long,long time ago, is why?

Why does Frost do this. And, more importantly looking to the future, would you want Frost to continue supporting this?

Would Frost be better being a dedicated dual wielding spec (UH being the 2h DPS spec) or would Frost lose something special by doing that?

As I said I am just curious, I just seek to see opinions.

[Shiira]

Both versions of frost use frost strike, the difference is that 2h frost mostly spends runes on obliterate and dw frost mostly spends them on howling blast.

This is because of might of the frozen wastes and threat of thassarian. Threat of thassarian is a huge buff to frost strike damage which makes mastery significantly stronger for dw frost, so you end up wanting to use howling blast over obliterate. Might of the frozen wastes is a huge increase to physical damage which makes mastery worse for 2h frost.

In before wrien propaganda.

[Clash the DK]

IMO, Frost should function with both 2H and DW weapons because we are not likely to see a 4th spec anytime soon. With the abandonment of Blood dps due to the Cata changes, Frost is the only place they can possibly offer a 2H/petless option.

With that being said, it should be cosmetic only. The problem we have today is they are trying to apply different playstyles to each weapon choice. But these playstyle choices do not jive with our secondary stats due to a large difference in the proportional physical and magical damage. Mastery to blame there. So, it is almost impossible to balance the two different choices. Meaning one is almost always superior in one situation (2H or DW) if not all (DW). So, there is a total breakdown of the original reason of having two different playstyles. No real choice.

But to clearly address your question, the answer is to have 2H and DW play the same. Not remove 2H or DW as an option for Frost.

[potatoe]

I like how DW and 2H play differently.

I like last patch how 2H was haste heavy and DW was mastery heavy.

It's almost like a 4th spec.

Maybe could be tweaked here and there, but it keeps things interesting.

[Obelisk Kai]

IMO, Frost should function with both 2H and DW weapons because we are not likely to see a 4th spec anytime soon. With the abandonment of Blood dps due to the Cata changes, Frost is the only place they can possibly offer a 2H/petless option.

I see so that was the original reasoning then, a 2 hander spec that doesn't use pets?

[prestilence]

Frost DKs
2-h: 7.5hit-exp > Crit > Mastery (theres enough static haste on our gear to get us a decent amount of haste without it being a main stat like it was in ToT when gear had much lower haste then. The rule of thumb was 7k haste for KM optimizing. Now that our 2-piece scales our Mastery (which one contributing factor as to why dw is better than 2h on most fights) Making crit our biggest stat.

DW: 7.5 hit/exp > Mastery > crit...Frost damage is directly impacted on our mastery as frost, DW or 2h mastery is the same.. Its just that now in DW howling blast becomes apart of your single target rotation especially with being "buffed" by razorice.

So knowing that basic info about frost, ask your self how much quick add fights are there? (quick adds- spawn throughout the fight, die quick)
Immerseus- heroic (frost burst on adds > unholy build up aoe) adds will be dead before you can get good disease procs
Protectors- heroic "sun phase"
Norushen- heroic I could see unholy being viable for this fight due to the add structure.
Sha- heroic Frost, specifically DW
Galak- heroic, DW frost for sure (tight add stacking makes both specs good, but edges over to frost more due to the howling blast hitting 100% adds, wheres on a loose stack, maybe 80% of adds, when an unholy DK pestilence could spread more dots better than HB could be used)
Jugg- heroic 2h frost is just as good as the ramp up dps as DW. (2h higher initial burst, DW will end up catching up and passing the 2h frost DK
Shaman- heroic, DW frost (4+ adds on pull.. 30-45 sec foul geyser on tank "adds" still favors frost especially if you can Grasp the adds over a Glyphed "slow" DnD and spam some good howling blast
Nazgrim- heroic I think 2h is actually slightly better sue to the target changing, wheres constant target changing could overtime impact as a dps loss for a DW dk. I noticed when I go 2h I can hold a higher dps average than as DW only because I switch to adds and banners every phase.
Malkorok- heroic DW. If you are the mellee swirl soaker, even if you are focusing malkorok, your howling blast cleave will give you the highest damage overall done to the add as long as its positioned in middle on a tank (death grip, gorefiends grasp etc) I would never target the add only ever to death grip it, but I would have 9.5M damage done to the add, next highest would our destro lock (no.1 dps) sitting at 3.5M damage done. You wouldnt be able to do that as 2h frost. And with such a clutch enrage timer compared to other heroics, you really need 100% time on boss and use your cleave on the add, which is why dw also pulls ahead on this fight.

So to compare the first half of the raid, you can see how heroic mode really applies to what spec has your best cleave.. and is that "cleave" going to lower your single target (answered by amount of Mastery/ gear) So yea I strongly believe that as you gear up, depending on the gear makes a spec more or less viable.. If youre unholy, you should play it the best you can until you can switch to go DW..And also, on some fights, its actually a DPS loss to ever obliterate (malkorok)

These are a few things that set DKs apart, knowing when to AMS to get full 100% rp to dump into Frost strikes, follwed up by howling blast dumping your runes, followed with blood taping into death runes adding even more HBs into FS.

Note* Obliterate and Howling blast both use a unholy rune.. I've had some howling blasts hit for 800k single target, so as DW obliterate can actually be a large dps loss over the duration of a fight if that unholy rune is used improperly for your situation.

[Deleted]

Note* Obliterate and Howling blast both use a unholy rune..

Huh?

/10chars

[Coalbane]

theres enough static haste on our gear to get us a decent amount of haste without it being a main stat like it was in ToT when gear had much lower haste then.

Negative. Haste was so important because of a bug with Runic Corruption that affected our RPPM rates. Here is one thread on the subject (delete the spaces, since I still can't post links on this website):

us . battle . net /wow / en / forum /topic /9561126353

[Deleted]

Why does Frost do this? And, more importantly looking to the future, would you want Frost to continue supporting this?

Would Frost be better being a dedicated dual wielding spec (UH being the 2h DPS spec) or would Frost lose something special by doing that?

As I said I am just curious, I just seek to see opinions.

Why is so? The reason is actualy 2 passives in your frost spec - Might of the Frozen Wastes and Threat of Thassarian.

First passive boost your Obliterated dmg by 40% when you wield 2h weapon is significant amount and with current SoO gear it hit hard. The only way to make Obliterated hit harder when you wield 2 hand weapon is obviously crit (well and weapon upgrade too ofcourse). Thats why 2h frost prioritase crit>mastery>haste. Crit increase your Obliterate dmg, mastery increase the dmg you filler spells. Haste is devaluated greatly by 2p set bonus + plague leech remake + SoO trink mechanics + AMS cd reduction glyph and due SoO boss mechanics (i will call them for shorter SoO DK buffs ) it is devalueted to a degree that it doesnt matter if yo have haste or not

Second passive increase your Frost strike dmg by 50% and allow you FS, DS and Obliterated to be performed and with your offhand weapon at the same time. Due the SoO DK buffs, DW frost prioritase weapon dmg>mastery>crit>haste. This is so because first Frost strike does 215% weapon dmg, witch is increased by 50% from the passive, witch is furthermore increased by the mastery by +80% to 95%, witch is furhter more increased by 15% from the debuff from Rune of Razorice. So basicaly its multiplier in multiplier in multiplier in multiplier + 50% of that amount from the offhand. So basicaly unlike the first passive you have 3 ways to make your frost strike hit harder - with weapon upgrade, mastery and crit stacking. And again due SoO DK buffs haste is devalueted in same manner as in the above situation in 2h subspec

I overall like that mechanics, they bring diversity in the gameplay style of the spec. I myself am fan of the dualwield supspec, always been and always will be.

About the second and third question - my visioin about this situation i have 2 stances about it.
First is either remove that shit and make them purely 2h or dualwield spec.
Second is make this apply and for Blood and Unholy too. Make and the other specs viable with both 2hand and 2x1hand weapons witch deverse in playstyle, prio list and stat prio.