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  1. #1

    How am I stacking up with raid's other shaman?

    Greetings all,

    I'm aware I probably can't post direct links, so sorry about that =\
    I recently got into a 12/14H guild and was sat due to poor performance for the H Klaxxi kill. At first I thought they did not have another ele shaman but now I know they do. I was told tonight that if I do not improve I'm going to be kicked from the raid group. I've gone to SentryTotem and requested help, which I recieved and I feel there has been a slight improvement, but I'm still working on using the info I was given to improve. I've gone from 94% FS up time to 96.8% uptime on this fight (H Malk)...and still hoping to improve.

    The other shaman in my raid has x2 HWF Trinks (Bindings and KTT) as well as HWF staff off of Galakras. I've only had 1 chance to get upgraded trinks but they're being Loot counciled away from me because of my performance.

    my armory: //us.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackrock/Louya/advanced

    Most recent H Malk kill: //worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-72djttk6882uoy0j/?s=9093&e=9335

    ty in advance =(

  2. #2
    I don't know shit about shamans but if your guild isn't comparing your performance to your own optimal, theoretical performance, based on your own gear, then they are doing it wrong. They shouldn't compare you to another shaman especially if he has better gear than you, that doesn't accurately judge your performance, it's comparing two different people. Hopefully you get some help here, but if you talk to them about this, you need to bring that up.

  3. #3
    I've spoke with my raid leader and he says it's because I'm low on the dps meters. I'm not really sure how I can improve to where he wants me since I didn't feel I was doing too horribly last week. Maybe I'm just not supposed to see this end game content like I wanted. =)

  4. #4
    If you are going to compare to the other shaman:
    you have 569 weapon, 582 shield(1h ilvl is far more important than shield), 569 totem, 582 bindings.
    he has 588 weapon, 588 totem, 588 bindings.

    That comparison is about as stupid as if you were bragging about doing more dps than some recently dinged player with less than 500 ilvl.

    Edit: Also, if loot council is using your performance as an excuse to not give you loot, then they shouldn't expect any improvements either.

    Other notes:
    Avoid ghost wolf unless you WILL die without the move speed (you used it for 8.4 seconds)
    He had 12 meta procs, you had 8
    His multistrike proc did almost twice as much damage as yours.
    Last edited by zoomgpally; 2014-06-22 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Cleaned up a bit
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    That comparison is about as stupid as if you were bragging about doing more dps than some recently dinged player with less than 500 ilvl.
    Edit: Also, if loot council is using your performance as an excuse to not give you loot, then they shouldn't expect any improvements either.
    I'll remember the ghost wolf thing =)

    I tried explaining that to my RL but he doesn't seem to think HWF trink or wep will change anything in my dps. He uses his crap warlock as an example who got one last week and hasn't improved at all. All the gear I've gotten while in this raid was from bonus rolls or no one needed them (gloves).

    I don't know. I'm trying to show I can do more.

  6. #6
    ele is always going to be basically the lowest dps @ klaxxi, we have no padding cleave like most other classes, we have no excessive multidots for procs, flame shock dot deals almost nothing compared to say balance druids moonfire/sunfire, or affliction, we have no way to cleave, we are the worst ranged hands down for klaxxi, hell we can't even soak good.

    but yeh 320k~ @ 576 ilvl is pretty low, a better log would be iron jug, because melee could of just been slack and left haste debuffs adds on you.


    also who the fuck still uses wol? warcraft logs or nothing.

  7. #7
    Overall dps meters on klaxxi don't matter. Most classes have built in cleave that looks good on meters but doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I can't look at your meters bc I'm on my phone, but have your raid leader look at single target damage on the different klaxxi, that's what matters. Multi dot the other klaxxi under your legendary proc for a marginal dps increase. If dps isn't an issue, try using UF which should help single target (but use PE if the burn phases are close).

    Yes HWF bindings, KTT, and wep will make a difference, but not an enormously huge one. You have heroic bindings and that's pretty huge.

    Here are some game play tips:

    Depending on kill times, make sure your ascendance is lined up with bindings proc especially since your KTT isn't as strong of a buff being normal vs heroic. Also, make sure you are setting up ascendance well. UF buff up, 2pc buff up, trinket buff up. You should have about 8-9 seconds of the UF buff on the target and about ~12 of the 2pc buff because of how GCD works. That'll boost you up some. (Again, not sure if you are doing this bc I can't see logs on my phone - or rather don't want to try to navigate on it).

    Never, never, never, never use ghost wolf unless an absolute emergency. Even then, you can typically face tank a bad decision at these gear levels.
    Last edited by Epistate; 2014-06-22 at 01:44 AM.

  8. #8
    World of logs isn't working today but I did look @ jugger yesterday. On the particular fight he got 7 procs of KTT and u got 4. That + the gear difference is what is separating you. Your raid should be uploading to warcraftlogs as it is much, much more simple and useful for comparing buff uptimes / usage of abilities than WoL.

    I'll take another look later if WoL decides to start working.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Your simmed dps difference is 32k which is the same as your difference on malk... If your raid leader expects better performance from you then the other player is underperforming as well.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by desert-wind View Post
    Your simmed dps difference is 32k which is the same as your difference on malk... If your raid leader expects better performance from you then the other player is underperforming as well.
    Not entirely sure what this means, but I will assume there's a way I can improve. I've been hitting the target dummy everyday and running flex, H scens, etc to get used to the WAs I've made/borrowed to track things so maybe that'll help a little. :\

    I'll work on lining up my Ascendance with trink and 2pc procs as well.

    From what I do remember, I used ghost wolf on H Malk when I was slowed by adds and Arcing Smash was going to land on me. That and "getting" safe were about the only time I used it. I'll make more use of my nitro boots instead.

    I hope I'll be able to improve enough by next Friday to show I'm trying to do better.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wsc View Post
    Not entirely sure what this means, but I will assume there's a way I can improve. I've been hitting the target dummy everyday and running flex, H scens, etc to get used to the WAs I've made/borrowed to track things so maybe that'll help a little. :\

    I'll work on lining up my Ascendance with trink and 2pc procs as well.

    From what I do remember, I used ghost wolf on H Malk when I was slowed by adds and Arcing Smash was going to land on me. That and "getting" safe were about the only time I used it. I'll make more use of my nitro boots instead.

    I hope I'll be able to improve enough by next Friday to show I'm trying to do better.


    What he is saying is if you did everything perfectly the other shaman should still beat you in dps.

    Most of this is because of the trinkets though such has his totem dealing twice as much dmg due to the Item level difference in ur normal one and his HWF one.

    Also you keep up flame shock on that malk fight better than he does too.


    Also even though this isnt something to do when your still progressing I sometimes will CL when the 3 oozes get to the boss just to ummmmmmm pad.

  11. #11
    For first kill on Heroic Klaxxi, I did something like ~200k dps. As an ele shaman, you're not really there to stand out on the overall meters imo. I held all my ascendances for the burst phases. I believe it went, opener on skeer, hold for korven burn, hold for xaril + hero, iyyokuk's 5th fire lines with AG, and then prolly on more on wind reaver or whatever that guy's name that drops the amber.

    Another thing to note is if the other ele shaman is using chain lightning at all... It is in no way a dps gain, and could only possibly be justified to get a little more out of AG, but really, it's completely wasted damage and is not worth the instantly full stacked fulminations. You're better off keeping flame shock on two targets for those lava surge procs. Spec into PE with a haste build if you need more burst, but the overall gist of it is, you will and should be at or near the bottom of the meters


    PS: lololol one log... and they didn't post H Klaxxi
    Last edited by Rabb; 2014-06-24 at 05:22 AM.

  12. #12
    The Patient Zeruge's Avatar
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    A few things to mention here. If you want to direct your raid leader towards this thread so he can learn a thing or two about Shaman, since he's clearly uneducated about the class himself, then by all means do so.

    First off, as has already been said, never ever compare yourself to anyone else on Paragons. You will never be top DPS on this encounter, and as a Shaman your main roles are to single target the active Paragon, place the amber well, and nuke the life out of Kuchongs during Mesmerize.

    Second, after having a look at your Iron Juggernaut kill, your opening rotation is really badly wrong. Here's what you did:

    [19:10:48.608] Louya casts Blood Fury
    [19:10:49.575] Louya casts Flame Shock on Iron Juggernaut
    [19:10:50.691] Louya casts Spiritwalker's Grace
    [19:10:50.692] Louya casts Ascendance
    [19:10:50.713] Louya casts Fire Elemental Totem
    [19:10:52.045] Louya begins to cast Lava Burst
    [19:10:52.942] Louya casts Lava Burst on Iron Juggernaut
    [19:10:53.080] Louya casts Stormlash Totem
    [19:10:54.064] Louya begins to cast Lava Burst
    [19:10:55.000] Louya casts Lava Burst on Iron Juggernaut
    [19:10:55.218] Louya casts Unleash Elements on Iron Juggernaut
    [19:10:56.220] Louya begins to cast Lava Burst
    [19:10:57.105] Louya casts Lava Burst on Iron Juggernaut
    Firstly, macro Blood Fury, Synapse Springs and Spiritwalker's Grace into Ascendance - that will make your life much easier. If you need the macro then just ask. Then here's what you do:

    - Fire Elemental on "3" during countdown
    - Prepot at "2" during countdown
    - Cast Lightning bolt at "1" during countdown (or Elemental Blast if specced)
    - Cast Stormlash Totem
    - Cast Unleash Elements if specced
    - Cast Flame Shock (note: only cast this after UE on the opener in order to proc meta gem - never do it this way round again)
    - Cast Lava Burst
    - Use your Ascendance macro and spam Lava Burst uninterrupted for 15 seconds

    Following this will automatically give you a massive DPS increase on the pull, we're talking 6 figures. You wasted so much of your Ascendance popping totems - Ascendance is a massive DPS cooldown and you need to use it to its full potential, when you do that you'll see a big increase from that alone. Also, I noticed this when your Ascendance ended:

    [19:11:04.870] Louya begins to cast Lava Burst
    [19:11:06.114] Louya begins to cast Lava Burst
    [19:11:07.291] Louya casts Lava Burst on Iron Juggernaut
    This tells me that you were moving whilst casting Lava Burst when Spiritwalker's Grace ended. If you glyph SWG you get 5 more seconds of usage from it, and you will therefore not waste a cast like this. I always have that glyph, it's really useful.

    I know this is on the pull, and by the look of it you did a good job (whether by luck or judgement, I don't know which), but you always want to refresh Flame Shock whilst your meta gem is up if there are 3 or fewer ticks remaining on it. I.e. to avoid this:

    [19:10:49.575] Louya casts Flame Shock on Iron Juggernaut
    [19:10:50.105] Louya gains Tempus Repit from Louya
    This loses you 3 or 4 ticks of Flame Shock from the same cast, and therefore a 60-80% chance to get a free instant Lava Burst.

    Also regarding Ascendance, if you're only going to get two uses out of it (which is most fights nowadays) then you should pop it when your biggest trinket/weapon enchant/meta gem proc occurs where possible, but if you're running out of time and the fight will not last much longer, just use it when one of them procs. Never use it a second time without a proc if you're only going to get two uses out of it.

    And here's the biggie - each item level accounts for roughly 4k DPS at this level, with main-hand weapons and trinkets obviously accounting for a lot more. If your weapon is 19 item levels below his, and your trinkets are below his, with your overall item level being, what, 6, below his? Then you're going to do about 30-40k less dps than him just based on that alone.

    You can definitely improve on your performance, for sure, but the gear is the main thing stopping you doing the DPS that he is doing. If your raid leader is not taking that into consideration, then, well, he's a bit of a clown isn't he.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    A few things to mention here. If you want to direct your raid leader towards this thread so he can learn a thing or two about Shaman, since he's clearly uneducated about the class himself, then by all means do so.

    Firstly, macro Blood Fury, Synapse Springs and Spiritwalker's Grace into Ascendance - that will make your life much easier. If you need the macro then just ask. Then here's what you do:

    - Fire Elemental on "3" during countdown
    - Prepot at "2" during countdown
    - Cast Lightning bolt at "1" during countdown (or Elemental Blast if specced)
    - Cast Stormlash Totem
    - Cast Unleash Elements if specced
    - Cast Flame Shock (note: only cast this after UE on the opener in order to proc meta gem - never do it this way round again)
    - Cast Lava Burst
    - Use your Ascendance macro and spam Lava Burst uninterrupted for 15 seconds

    I know this is on the pull, and by the look of it you did a good job (whether by luck or judgement, I don't know which), but you always want to refresh Flame Shock whilst your meta gem is up if there are 3 or fewer ticks remaining on it. I.e. to avoid this:

    This loses you 3 or 4 ticks of Flame Shock from the same cast, and therefore a 60-80% chance to get a free instant Lava Burst.

    Also regarding Ascendance, if you're only going to get two uses out of it (which is most fights nowadays) then you should pop it when your biggest trinket/weapon enchant/meta gem proc occurs where possible, but if you're running out of time and the fight will not last much longer, just use it when one of them procs. Never use it a second time without a proc if you're only going to get two uses out of it.
    Thank you!
    I knew I was messing up my opener. I'll need to edit my ascendance macro for sure. I have FET, Synapse and SWG macro'd with Ascendance but not Blood Fury. I'll swap around FET and the racial. I have Weak Auras to track my trinkets and I'll need to make one for my Meta proc. I have AffDots - Shaman installed that tracks FS strength (?) and if I should refresh because something proc'd. (it also shows me how many ticks are left for FS which is what I like). I'd love to have WA make a noise when I have 6 seconds left on FS, but I can track that on my own until I figure out how to do that.

    I'll grab Glyph of SWG and try it out this week =) Thanks again for the analysis.

  14. #14
    The Patient Zeruge's Avatar
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    No worries champ. Let us know how it goes and we can try and improve you further after your next raid.

    Also, don't macro your Fire Elemental into anything - pop it on its own with 3 seconds left on the countdown before the pull. Your Ascendance macro should only contain spells that don't trigger a global cooldown. You can also add Lava Burst onto the end of it to squeeze that tiny bit more optimisation out if you know you're not going to be using Lava Beam at all.

    I'm afraid I don't use weakauras so I can't help you with that, but there are bound to be some boffins here who do and will be able to.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Lepo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsc View Post
    Thank you!
    I knew I was messing up my opener. I'll need to edit my ascendance macro for sure. I have FET, Synapse and SWG macro'd with Ascendance but not Blood Fury. I'll swap around FET and the racial. I have Weak Auras to track my trinkets and I'll need to make one for my Meta proc. I have AffDots - Shaman installed that tracks FS strength (?) and if I should refresh because something proc'd. (it also shows me how many ticks are left for FS which is what I like). I'd love to have WA make a noise when I have 6 seconds left on FS, but I can track that on my own until I figure out how to do that.

    I'll grab Glyph of SWG and try it out this week =) Thanks again for the analysis.
    Now I'm not really an expert on ele sham since i really only played it on a serious level in challenge modes, but I just want to bring this up and please people, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Don't really think AffDots is the best addon here as it may trick you into refreshing when it in the end will result in a dps loss.
    Let me explain my theory.
    If you have a FS dot up with the haste proc from meta (nomnom LvB proccs) and then like all your trinkets proc but the meta buff falls off. It might be the case that AffDots would want you to refresh FS early just because the dot will deal more damage that way, but actually losing ticks that could result in fewer LvB. This came to my mind only because FS dot damage is pretty weak and we mainly want to keep it up for proccs.

    Side note: Awesome to see the enthusiasm of the people trying to help the OP out. Restoring a little hope for gamer mentality!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lepo View Post
    Now I'm not really an expert on ele sham since i really only played it on a serious level in challenge modes, but I just want to bring this up and please people, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Don't really think AffDots is the best addon here as it may trick you into refreshing when it in the end will result in a dps loss.
    Let me explain my theory.
    If you have a FS dot up with the haste proc from meta (nomnom LvB proccs) and then like all your trinkets proc but the meta buff falls off. It might be the case that AffDots would want you to refresh FS early just because the dot will deal more damage that way, but actually losing ticks that could result in fewer LvB. This came to my mind only because FS dot damage is pretty weak and we mainly want to keep it up for proccs.

    Side note: Awesome to see the enthusiasm of the people trying to help the OP out. Restoring a little hope for gamer mentality!
    Along this note, I'd also encourage not using AffDots for Elemental.

    A different scenario:

    You have Flame Shock with X seconds left, you have a trinket proc and so AffDots recommends you refresh Flame Shock. You refresh Flame Shock, then 5 seconds later you have your other trinket proc, and once again AffDots recommends you refresh Flame Shock. You refresh Flame Shock, then 5 seconds later your meta gem procs and AffDots recommends you refresh Flame Shock.

    Obviously it's an extreme example, but it's to elaborate my point. Refreshing FS at the frequency AffDots recommends will undoubtedly be a DPS loss; we don't have Pandemic. Being smart about when you renew FS is the key rather than doing it because a bar changes colour (though undoubtedly AffDots is useful!)

    Personally, I'd set up a nice aura for Tempus Repit (your meta gem proc) and get used to deciding whether you should refresh FS when it's up. Even bigger deeps if you're able to put a couple haste-packed FS's up (on Padagons for example).

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Devos Songare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsc View Post
    From what I do remember, I used ghost wolf on H Malk when I was slowed by adds and Arcing Smash was going to land on me. That and "getting" safe were about the only time I used it. I'll make more use of my nitro boots instead.
    Just a little tip here, you could use Windwalker Totem instead. It's saved me a few times.
    BattleTag: Devos#1585

  18. #18
    As someone already said, you have to work on you opener, i've seen on malkorok H and u missed the Fire elemental pre pull too.. and another tip, try to always or as much as you can cast flame shock under the meta gem proc, it is a nice dos gain since your flame shock will ticks more and you have more chance to have lava surge procs..

    Try to not use the second Ascendance as soon it is off cd, try to manage it with the second Int potion and with trinkets procs, Ascendance is a huge dps cd and u have to maximize it.. And you should add some more haste, like 200+ for the 11981 haste cap that gives you an extra tick from Flame shock under the meta gem proc...

    Plus on Klaxxi i can suggest you to always have a second flameshock up on another target, it helps you with lava surge proc, but not more than a second one, three flame shocks uptime are not a big dps gain
    Last edited by Tariska; 2014-06-25 at 05:06 PM.

  19. #19
    First off, thanks guys for all the input. My raid is later today (6pm PST) so I'm gonna try and put in a little more practice before then and hope it shows in raid tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lepo View Post
    Don't really think AffDots is the best addon here as it may trick you into refreshing when it in the end will result in a dps loss.
    I've been practicing all week and feel I've no need for the addon myself. It seems I disabled it a few days ago (intended to remove it from an alt) and never noticed/cared it was gone completely. I've been working on just refreshing with the meta proc.


    So far the only thing I've noticed while running Flex is that I don't seem to be particularly lucky with trinket procs for my second Ascendance.

  20. #20
    The Patient Zeruge's Avatar
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    Just remember not to try *too* hard, you won't automatically be the new Messiah within one week, so be sure to just look for small improvements and not "I must now be better than everyone!" - that's when you start making silly mistakes like standing in frontal cones

    Good luck, I look forward to seeing how you got on

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