Difference between Fire & Frost?

[Rekx]

Hi all,

I have been playing frost most of this tier, I was fire during ToT, took a break and came back when SoO was released.
Now, currently I am doing fine, but I'm trying to find ways to increase my dps / damage as my guild progresses further into heroic content.

I just have a quick question; is fire really that much better then frost?


I played fire in cata, ToT, and I recently switched back to it, but now I hate it. My personal opinions aside, is it "wrong" to just stay frost? Is it worth me attempted to master fire and weigh down my guild while I do so?

I've checked around and I haven't found any direct answers other then "fire is the best". I'd like to know by how much, if possible. (any sort of details or reasoning would be appreciated) I realize its based primarily on gear. So lets assume I have all the proper gear for both specs at 570 ilvl, would fire be so far ahead that frost is just utter crap?

Thanks in advance.

[Deleted]

I personaly dont know what to tell you. As far as my information about mages goes in 5.4 all 3 specs are almost eaqual in same gear or atleast in your exaple with 570ish ilvl with Arcane have a slight edge over the other two.
Bu i also have to add that SoO encounters are made so every spec and class have its niche, ups and downs, so thats why you cant find any straight answer witch spec is FotM.
I think that Arcane is that spec (well i will alwyas think like that becaseu i love it ), but yet again that depend really on your raid size and composition and what are your "duties" during the fights. For HC progression i saw many people say that Fire is THE spec because of the mobility it offers. And for Frost i havent seen much, but that mostly because i dont care about that spec so i cant say anything about it

[Cryonic]

Now I'm confused, I went from frost to fire for like 2 months ago because ppl were telling me frost was superior to fire, now I see this, I'm very confused :P

[Deleted]

Some people would say fire is clearly better.... some would say fire and frost are nearly equal....

I think at the end a lot of it comes down to which spec you can play better and of course gear.... And... well... some encounters and tactics give each specc an advantage... e.g. Iron Jug (outrange tactic) and Nazgrim (def stance) your waterele can still dpos the boss, which fire can't....
You will find a lot more fire mages in heroic progress than frost/arcane. I guess that simply is as Fire was the best specc in TDD and there wasn't a big reason to leave fire in SoO.
So it is difficult to bring propper numbers.
Frost definitely isn't utter crap and it is viable for SoO heroics (esp if you consider you won't need 4p and thus can use nice hc gear from the first bosses in SoO). See Akraens Advanced frost guide if you haven't already. He always answers any question quite quick and kind.

In the end see it like this: The mage from Paragon played mostly arcane for their first hero clear and afterwards played frost for 2nd or 3rd clear.... that's not any numer or detailed reasoning... but you won't get those... and I guess we all agree you can't rely on any sims...
=> Play Frost if you are doing good dps and hate fire...

[Deleted]

One is hot and one is cold? *ba dum ching*

[Rekx]

I personaly dont know what to tell you. As far as my information about mages goes in 5.4 all 3 specs are almost eaqual in same gear or atleast in your exaple with 570ish ilvl with Arcane have a slight edge over the other two.
Bu i also have to add that SoO encounters are made so every spec and class have its niche, ups and downs, so thats why you cant find any straight answer witch spec is FotM.
I think that Arcane is that spec (well i will alwyas think like that becaseu i love it ), but yet again that depend really on your raid size and composition and what are your "duties" during the fights. For HC progression i saw many people say that Fire is THE spec because of the mobility it offers. And for Frost i havent seen much, but that mostly because i dont care about that spec so i cant say anything about it

If this is the case (and it does seem to be that way) then I'm glad. I've just seen so many mages that are fire, it made me wonder if there was a rhyme or reason.

I kinda want to try arcane now, I haven't played it since early ToT and I didn't mind it to much..hmm..

Some people would say fire is clearly better.... some would say fire and frost are nearly equal....

I think at the end a lot of it comes down to which spec you can play better and of course gear.... And... well... some encounters and tactics give each specc an advantage... e.g. Iron Jug (outrange tactic) and Nazgrim (def stance) your waterele can still dpos the boss, which fire can't....
You will find a lot more fire mages in heroic progress than frost/arcane. I guess that simply is as Fire was the best specc in TDD and there wasn't a big reason to leave fire in SoO.
So it is difficult to bring propper numbers.
Frost definitely isn't utter crap and it is viable for SoO heroics (esp if you consider you won't need 4p and thus can use nice hc gear from the first bosses in SoO). See Akraens Advanced frost guide if you haven't already. He always answers any question quite quick and kind.

In the end see it like this: The mage from Paragon played mostly arcane for their first hero clear and afterwards played frost for 2nd or 3rd clear.... that's not any numer or detailed reasoning... but you won't get those... and I guess we all agree you can't rely on any sims...
=> Play Frost if you are doing good dps and hate fire...

I have noticed the slight favoritism on some fights, and its a relief of sorts to hear that a top rated mage was playing fire / arcane.

Hate is a strong word, I probably shouldn't say I hate it. I love fire in the sense that I can cast while moving, and throwing pyroblasts is fun. What I dont like is the sense of, I need to play perfectly to make it worth while. If I miss a proc, or time combustion wrong / bad ignite, my dps blows.

With frost, I dont seem to have that problem. Plus, with the amount of haste that I have atm, when my meta gem procs I'm at 1sec FB casts, which is nice, lol.


Thanks for the replies, it eases my mind to know that by staying frost I wont be doing to much lower (if at all) then sucking it up and playing fire.

[Deleted]

In addition one should say.... there are different kind of players....
fire will always stay fire....
forst and arcane will most likely have the other as 2nd spec... all about stat priorities ^^ noone would play frost or arcan weith heavy crit gear.... nor would a haste/mastery build play fire ^^ I like that freedom to use 2 specs.... well... main arcane, frost as 2nd ^^

[IsrafaelMage]

It always comes to your role in raid and the gear you have (after 565+ i mean) .. Unlike Fire, Frost has excellent burst AOE and some other neat things (ranged DF on demand), which may help (or even be needed) for your raid to succeed on certain bosses.. Deep freeze helps on big adds on norushen if your tanks are slow or 2 adds spawned at the same time, Orb is excellent to kill the small adds on Immerseus, havent done others yet, but i suspect DF is handy on Galakras to stun bonecrushers and all other adds on Nazgrim, Orb should help with blobs on shamans and Malkorok etc..

[Deleted]

Frost is often overlooked or waved away as "a joke". There are some prominent fire mages who think that fire beats frost after 535 item level and that frost is absolutely not viable.

I play Frost. I tried all 3 specs, Fire ends last with 16.5k crit and HC trinkets, and not because I am terrible at it. Frost is simply amazingly strong. The primary issue is that fire mages will say this for fire, frost mages will say this for frost and arcane mages will say this for arcane. It is practically impossible to compare them completely since they are so different. Never mind having a discussion on it.

[Rekx]

It always comes to your role in raid and the gear you have (after 565+ i mean) .. Unlike Fire, Frost has excellent burst AOE and some other neat things (ranged DF on demand), which may help (or even be needed) for your raid to succeed on certain bosses.. Deep freeze helps on big adds on norushen if your tanks are slow or 2 adds spawned at the same time, Orb is excellent to kill the small adds on Immerseus, havent done others yet, but i suspect DF is handy on Galakras to stun bonecrushers and all other adds on Nazgrim, Orb should help with blobs on shamans and Malkorok etc..

This is a primary reason I like frost, aside from mechanics and spec "flow". I love the utility. Orb on immerseus, shaman slimes, galakras adds, DF naz adds ( i never get hit by assassins on heroic ) the list goes on.

Frost is often overlooked or waved away as "a joke". There are some prominent fire mages who think that fire beats frost after 535 item level and that frost is absolutely not viable.

I play Frost. I tried all 3 specs, Fire ends last with 16.5k crit and HC trinkets, and not because I am terrible at it. Frost is simply amazingly strong. The primary issue is that fire mages will say this for fire, frost mages will say this for frost and arcane mages will say this for arcane. It is practically impossible to compare them completely since they are so different. Never mind having a discussion on it.

Thats why I came here, because it seems to be taken as a joke sometimes. Its a shame, I started playing a mage way back when because I like fire. Over time however, I find myself enjoying frost much much more. So I suppose I'll stick with it seeing as it seems it isnt a huge difference either way, thank god.

[Deleted]

This is a primary reason I like frost, aside from mechanics and spec "flow". I love the utility. Orb on immerseus, shaman slimes, galakras adds, DF naz adds ( i never get hit by assassins on heroic ) the list goes on.




Thats why I came here, because it seems to be taken as a joke sometimes. Its a shame, I started playing a mage way back when because I like fire. Over time however, I find myself enjoying frost much much more. So I suppose I'll stick with it seeing as it seems it isnt a huge difference either way, thank god.

If you enjoy it, and you do what you are supposed to, then it would be a joke not to play frost. Ignore "theoretical maximums", if theory was flawless we would actually use simcraft as a reliable and accurate source. If your DPS as frost is higher than it is as fire or arcane you'd be an idiot to switch. If it works, then it works.

I seem to recall that somebody on here once made a topic, early 5.4, saying why frost is just as competitive as the other two specs and he got burned to death by them, I'll try to find it for you since its points were valid.

[Akraen]

Hi that'd be me. But I stuck to it and look at where we are now

[Saegno]

With proper gear and knowing how to play the spec, there is no bad spec in 5.4.
Some might pull ahead of others slightly on different fights but it's not going to be like the past where 1 spec was over 10%+ ahead of the other 2 or 2 specs were close and 1 was 10%+ behind.

[Madruga]

As of 5.4, all 3 specs are viable.

The consensus is that Arcane is the best DPS of all 3, followed by Fire and then Frost, but the difference is so small that having to cast Frost Armor in order to leave through damage may allow the "worst" spoec to pass you by. In my 25 man core, there are 3 mages of all specs, and we keep changing spots in the DPS chart depending on the fight, the procs and who gets hit by the mechanics.

I believed Fire would jump ahead, since it is always the case in the last tier, but it is not happening. Maybe with BIS gear, but when you get your BIS gear it will not matter.

In the end, you really are allowed to play with whichever Mage spec you prefer. Maybe the first time ever since raiding began.

You may consider maximing loot. I am going as Fire mostly because it is my favorite spec, but also because Crit gear is going to DE, and I can use that gear nobody wants.

[Deleted]

It would actually appear that Blizzard for once hit the mark with mages and you can choose your spec after which you favor, I know this has been said throughout expansion but playing frost in 5.0 or arcane in early 5.2 was somewhat gimping your raiddps.
I say this as a Frostmage who has stuck with frost throughout the expansion, I just really like the spec.
I hope they can keep frost interesting in the PvE-scene going forwards and remove the 90 talents otherwise I don't think mage will be my main in next expansion.

[Salystra]

Arcane - Highest potential single target, but movement kills the DPS horrifically (good luck in heroics)

Fire - Highest overall given gear, but can have a high DPS swing due to the nature of fire's crit reliance, very specific gearset

Frost - High dps low variance, low gear requirement and can swap to arcane if needed in same gear.


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Personally I'm a haste stacked frosty as I hated the penalisation from Arcane movement and the RNG ^%$£ factor of fire.

I'm currently 11/14 HC and keep up with our fire mage who has similar gear, win and lose some but nothing substantial whilst complimenting each others weaknesses. Play whichever spec you play the best THAT will be the biggest factor in your dps.

[Saegno]

Arcane - Highest potential single target, but movement kills the DPS horrifically (good luck in heroics)

Fire - Highest overall given gear, but can has a high DPS swing due to the nature of fire's crit reliance, very specific gearset

Frost - High dps low variance, low gear requirement and can swap to arcane if needed in same gear.


--------------------------

Personally I'm a haste stacked frosty as I hated the penalisation from Arcane movement and the RNG ^%$£ factor of fire.

I'm currently 11/14 HC and keep up with our fire mage who has similar gear, win and lose some but nothing substantial whilst complimenting each others weaknesses. Play whichever spec you play the best THAT will be the biggest factor in your dps.

Arcane is fine for heroics. I'm 11/14 HC myself and was arcane for every kill. I did try fire with around 45% crit but just could not stand the heavy RNG factor of it all. Yes, movement does impact arcanes DPS but with how little serious movement is required and how easy it is to handle with blink/double blink/eng boots/blazing speed/ice floes and knowing how the fight will pan out it's not much of an issue.
There is also the advantage of being able to swap between arcane and frost with no penalty like going from fire to frost would have(I go frost for H Blackfuse and become a CC Machine).

[Racthoh]

Is it worth me attempted to master fire and weigh down my guild while I do so?

you need to know how to play fire as a raiding mage. cannot say it more plainly.

[Salystra]

you need to know how to play fire as a raiding mage. cannot say it more plainly.

Quote Originally Posted by inboundpaper
The short answer is nope, the long answer is noooooooooooooooope.

Your own sig gives the response for that




@Saegno - I know it CAN work but to make it work you need to be basically given the reins to be there as a static dps bot, although less so thanks to the RoP radius increase. Blink etc can get you into a new position but you still need to recast RoP (also can't get floes and speed but you know that I'm sure) which could make you lose your AB stacks or you are forced to dump them at a lower than desired damage level.

To make it work really is a case of being "lucky" on movement, you're working on Siege like myself ($£%"£% fight) could you imagine doing that as Arcane?!

[Saegno]

Quote Originally Posted by inboundpaper View Post
The short answer is nope, the long answer is noooooooooooooooope.

Your own sig gives the response for that




@Saegno - I know it CAN work but to make it work you need to be basically given the reins to be there as a static dps bot, although less so thanks to the RoP radius increase. To make it work really is a case of being "lucky" on movement, you're working on Siege like myself ($£%"£% fight) could you imagine doing that as Arcane?!

We killed siegecrafter already, the guild is actually 12/14H. I did several attempts during progression on it as arcane and it's not too bad. It's def an ice floes > blazing speed kind of fight since the movement is fairly short range but just long enough to be out of RoP range. Hell the only reason I did it as frost was because we lacked strong CC and pet nova+frozen orb was too good to pass up.
As long as you know what the fight requires, as far as strats go, arcane is fine for ever fight. On that note though I will say that fire/frost are easier to handle mechanics on fights like H Garrosh and H Blackfuse.