Zen Meditation vs Thok's screeches?

[Lerrielin]

Hi All,

Would Zen Meditation help against the damage from Deafening Screech, since that ability isn't targeted on specific individuals and technically isn't a "spell" (physical damage ability)? Obviously, to be able to continue channeling it, the casting monk would have to receive a Hand of Protection, but is Zen Med even useful as a CD on Heroic Thok (25)?

This is just for theorycrafting. I'm trying to make a list of all possible CDs available to us, so it isn't a matter of HoPing a monk vs HoPing a different healer. :P

Thanks in advance!

[Inthislzon]

I'm pretty sure that zenmed redirects single target spells targeted to party members, with most, if not all spells in any given raid bypassing said redirect, so i doubt it works.

And even IF it did, there is no CD strong enough to justify a healer not healing during 8 seconds

[Spotnick]

The screech cancels it and locks you out for a couple seconds.

[Lerrielin]

And even IF it did, there is no CD strong enough to justify a healer not healing during 8 seconds

Well, the idea would be that a DPS monk would be using it.

The screech cancels it and locks you out for a couple seconds.

Right, which is why I wrote, "Obviously, to be able to continue channeling it, the casting monk would have to receive a Hand of Protection" in my original post.

[allaiva]

I use it as a tank to cancel one of those screeches out. It does work on the raid for one cast, but as others have said it does cancel the cast right after and locks you out of casting for a few seconds. Just have to time it as a tank so you don't get melee'd and have it cancel early.

[Ailylia]

As a tank you use it with avert harm to reduce the damage of one screech by 20% without taking a ton of damage yourself.

[Promdates]

If no one else is in range of Avert Harm, you can use it as a personal cooldown. 20% of the damage you would take goes towards your stagger, this includes any magic damage you would take.

tweeted I've even had some people testing it via twitter, as I haven't been able to since I've been tanking on my warrior the past two weeks.

[arcuro]

i dont know why, but i never get tons of damage while using avert harm. hell i even used it on iron juggernaut as raid cd and survived without issues.
as for zen med, i never ever saw it as a raid cd, it is far more usefull if used as personal cd. it helps a let for the screech

[Jonky]

If no one else is in range of Avert Harm, you can use it as a personal cooldown. 20% of the damage you would take goes towards your stagger, this includes any magic damage you would take.

tweeted I've even had some people testing it via twitter, as I haven't been able to since I've been tanking on my warrior the past two weeks.

I'm no expert on brewmasters, but I would sooner cast it as a cooldown for the other tank.

I don't see a damage reduction component in the tooltip, just that all damage (including magic) is staggered. Wouldn't this damage be staggered anyway though?

[thebdc]

i dont know why, but i never get tons of damage while using avert harm. hell i even used it on iron juggernaut as raid cd and survived without issues.

Avert Harm only affects allies 10 yards around you. So under many cicumstances (like when tanking the Iron Juggernaut) nobody but you will be in this 10 yard range.

I don't see a damage reduction component in the tooltip, just that all damage (including magic) is staggered. Wouldn't this damage be staggered anyway though?

Magic damage can't be staggered (unless with Avert Harm, obviously).

[Jonky]

Magic damage can't be staggered (unless with Avert Harm, obviously).

Right, Thok's screech is physical damage. So what would you accomplish by using AH for yourself?

[jazzyy]

Clarification: Zen Meditation reduces your damage intake by 90% and redirects 5 harmful spells from your party/raid members to you.
Thok's Deafening Screech is a Physical damaging ability that interrupts/silences all enemies.

First off; Zen Meditation would not have spells redirected to you, since it's not a targeted spell.

Therefore Zen Meditation would only reduce your damage intake by 90%. That's it. If you wanted the full 8s you'd have to get a HoP or a Devo.

As a DPS:
Absolutely useless. Nobody should spend a HoP on you unless you have twenty four other paladins in your raid group and they're itching to press it. The point of pushing Thok so hard in these phases is to do damage. Not to make DPS use globals on surviving

As a tank:
Might be good to use to stop one of his breaths and then a screech, that's it

As a healer:
I don't think this needs any explanation, don't do this.

[Promdates]

Avert Harm only affects allies 10 yards around you. So under many cicumstances (like when tanking the Iron Juggernaut) nobody but you will be in this 10 yard range.

It doesn't affect ONLY allies. It will affect you as well, and would only affect you if no one else is in range.

Magic damage can't be staggered (unless with Avert Harm, obviously).

Currently AH is the only way to stagger magic damage, that is true.

Right, Thok's screech is physical damage. So what would you accomplish by using AH for yourself?

You would actually mitigate 20% of the damage after your stagger towards your stagger. It's a really mediocre cooldown that actually works for you as well, the wording is just bad. If you have say 20% mastery, you're going to stagger 60% of the damage. So if you were to take a 1m hit before stagger, you would take a 400k hit with 60% right? Had you used AH, you would have staggered an additional 80k (20% of the remaining 400k damage). Should you use it for your OT? Probably, that 1m hit would be 800k instead on them. Should you really be using a 3m cooldown like that though, not really. Again, it's a really mediocre cooldown for anything not involving staggering lots of raid damage to multiple people at once. It's generally worthless on any 25H fight, less so for 10H I'm assuming due to lower damage intake.

I personally think they should remove it, as it has practically no use for anyone currently. Even the wording is causing people to not know how it works. I asked numerous people about it, they all told me the same thing "it doesn't work for you, only allies." Then I had a few of them test it.

[Jonky]

I didn't know it caused a double stagger effect.

So you're basically redirecting 20% of the damage you take to yourself and staggering that redirected damage? Crazy sauce.

[thebdc]

It doesn't affect ONLY allies. It will affect you as well, and would only affect you if no one else is in range.

Yes, I just wanted to give an explanation why he doesn't get massive amounts of damage as he expected. I should have used a better syntax, my "only" was more directed at the 10 yards, not at the allies.

[Promdates]

I didn't know it caused a double stagger effect.

So you're basically redirecting 20% of the damage you take to yourself and staggering that redirected damage? Crazy sauce.

Yeah, but as you can see it's very marginal mitigation for one self.

[Ailylia]

I personally think they should remove it, as it has practically no use for anyone currently. Even the wording is causing people to not know how it works. I asked numerous people about it, they all told me the same thing "it doesn't work for you, only allies." Then I had a few of them test it.

It is situationally useful to couple AH with ZM for 10H guilds that have a smaller number of raidwide defensive cooldowns. I would be sad to see it go.

[Promdates]

It is situationally useful to couple AH with ZM for 10H guilds that have a smaller number of raidwide defensive cooldowns. I would be sad to see it go.

I'm of the camp that healers should have raid wide cooldowns, and that we should remove non-healer ones. It's more or less boiling down to "how many of these cooldowns can we fit into the raid". We generally bring 2-3 Rallying Cry, 2-3 Devo Aura, 1-2 Disc Priests, 2-4 Shaman and a varying number of smoke bombs because lol raid cooldowns. When devs have to design encounters around a raid having 8-12 different raid cooldowns, it's dumb and causing the game to be more of "X ability is coming up, so we need to time W/Y/Z cooldowns to compensate for it."

[Ailylia]

It's a moot point now that we're all going to a single 20 man raiding format. If everyone has access to the same number of tools I'm fine with whatever the tools are because we'll be able to balance around it. However, as things currently exist, it is easier to find a spare raid cooldown in 25 than it is in 10, and 10 does not experience a diminished number of effects necessitating the need of raid cooldowns. By that I mean, for example, 25s do not have fewer whirling corruptions to deal with than 10m does.

But as I say, with everyone moving to 20s anyway, it shouldn't be an issue.

[allaiva]

I didn't know it caused a double stagger effect.

So you're basically redirecting 20% of the damage you take to yourself and staggering that redirected damage? Crazy sauce.

To correct this, all damage you take during the 6s it's active is staggered. This includes incoming magic damage. It's a moderately good cd to use against incoming magic damage so long as you're the only one within it's active radius.

With 60% stagger, a 1M magic attack will, in theory, hit you for 400k and will stagger the 600k. Tested this against magic attacks that baseline do about 150k per hit. With AH active I was hit for about 64.5k and 85.5k was added to my stagger debuff.