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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Lalicat View Post
    Honestly, it's because the game is so big now, and because so many servers are linked together.

    If you did that in the past you'd get a bad name on your server. Your name would circulate and you'd have a hell of a time finding dungeon groups (no LFG) or a good guild. Your reputation as a player was important, because it opened doors to a better play experience ("good" groups for raids or dungeons, invites to AQ20 or PVP etc.)

    It comes down to anonymity and a lack of repercussions for your actions. If you could steal 1 million dollars with absolutely no repercussions IRL, would you do it, even though it's morally wrong? A lot of people probably would.

    Same shit - except it's not real, so people don't care - and there's no way to curb their behaviour through social shaming.
    This is actually a big reason as well. LFR/LFD/Xrealm ruined the whole reputation aspect. A lot of players now don't know how ninjaing 1 item or ditching a group could essentially ruin your entire playing experience. I hate to be the guy thats like "back in my day", but at the same time I also don't think all change is inherently good.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Seiken3 View Post
    Agreed! There has been very many occations where I have been very shameful over being a human. I still am...
    I have had some of those times as well. I don't think humans are horrible creatures though. I think people are generally good and just absolutely horrible at decision making. Couple that with the anonymity, lack of repercussions and the inability to see the human past the pixels and you have the creation of a perfect storm of asshattery.

    I agree if that you had to look other players in the eye when playing with them that people as whole would probably behave differently.


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  3. #63
    High Overlord Lalicat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    This is actually a big reason as well. LFR/LFD/Xrealm ruined the whole reputation aspect. A lot of players now don't know how ninjaing 1 item or ditching a group could essentially ruin your entire playing experience. I hate to be the guy thats like "back in my day", but at the same time I also don't think all change is inherently good.
    I think that's why you see some other games instituting methods to curb toxic behaviour. As soon as you have total anonymity, the type of behaviour OP described becomes prevalent. It's just human nature. The gaming community as a whole has grown MASSIVELY, even from 5 years ago.

    Hell, when I've been in bad groups I'll totally admit to just ditching it - who could find me? Would it affect my reputation? Do I know anyone in the group? Nope. It's easier to just leave. If I pulled that in the past then it would be likely that if that raid leader formed a raid group again, I would NOT get an invite...and because my groups were limited to my server only that would be have been bad news for me.

    What's interesting to me is that as oQueue and "preferred queuing/groups" is becoming popular, you're seeing the return of that type of reputation. While groups are cross-server you DO have a reputation to maintain. If you're a "good" player then it's likely that you may be re-invited for future raids by a specific raid leader, or may have an easier time inviting folks from your cross-server friends list, because they know they can rely on you.

    I don't think it has any "bad" or "good" or "omg the old days were better" connotations... It's just the way it is. The game has grown, and now it's up to us/Blizzard to find solutions to the toxic attitudes that have been created because of it.

  4. #64
    It's not just internet anonymity... look at drivers on a highway, or shoppers in a grocery store -- it's all about "me."

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimoreen View Post
    It's not just internet anonymity... look at drivers on a highway, or shoppers in a grocery store -- it's all about "me."
    But I think its a function of the same thing. I remember hearing or reading about a study that suggested that normally calm and collected people act like dicks on the road because of the tendency to see the car and not consider the human driving it. I'm not saying your examples are wrong, just that there is a common cause. I don't think we have a firm grip on what that common cause is.

  6. #66
    Being bad is cool or so they say.

  7. #67
    Bloodsail Admiral Lahis's Avatar
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    Humans are assholes. There's nothing more to it.
    Only when we face the danger of being punched in the face will we try to behave around strangers. Since one can't yet send punches over the Internet, our real nature can flourish here.
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  8. #68
    People for the most part only do things for themselves.

    I mean these days, it's fucking rare to even get a hello from people in oQueue, LFR, Heroics and alsorts, it makes zero effect on gameplay, but it pisses me off to no end, is it so hard to just say "hi" or thanks at the end of the run?

    Just the Internet really, information has never been in the reach of so many hands, which is amazing, but social skills are slipping right down the pan, I mean I see on Facebook, "party" photos, 20 people sitting all staring at there phones on facebook and BBM, wtf are you doing with your life? Get drunk, go out, rebel, do all that crap now before your too old, don't sit staring at a fucking screen all your childhood and teenage and early adult years, damn, that is not "an awesome party".

    Overall Humans just suck, literally, we are a disgusting horrible greed and power riddled species, it's just who we are.


    EDIT:
    I've only TWO examples of people being nice throughout MoP,

    One day I was bored, flying upside down and in loops in Ironforge, a mage whispered me like "Wow, how do you do that" and I taught him, now everytime we see each other in Ironforge we speak, and he said to me "I'll always remember you as the guy who taught me how to do that", and to be honest, he was an lfr "scrub", now, he's in a new guild, has his legendary, and is running normals, I actually feel proud of the guy.

    Another was a Warlock, he was farming warbringers, not for the mount, just for Shado-pan rep items, he saw me trying to kill them on my warrior and asked if I wanted to help, "I just want rep, already got the mount", I was unsure if he'd just actually ninja the mount, but I said okay anyway, we proceeding to fly around killing the warbringers, he got shado-pan exalted in about half an hour, he only needed a few, BUT, he then proceeded to spend the next FOUR hours helping me so I could get my mount, and this was at like 3/4am, we finally gave up at 5am, the next day we whispered me asking if I wanted help getting the mount again, I checked his armory, he already had all the mounts, and actually wanted to help me get the mount.

    Aside from that, it's the general hate/abuse/keyboard warrior stuff.
    Last edited by Toiran; 2013-12-19 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #69
    You should have got his money up front.

    I was in Nagrand the other day grinding some rep on my main and this person asked in trade if anyone could help him with Ring of Blood. I responded "I might be able to in a minute" and he whispered me "Fu** You!" and logged off. It was probably the strangest thing that has ever happened to me in WoW....but things like that are more of a common occurrence than 6-7 years ago.

  10. #70
    High Overlord Lalicat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    People for the most part only do things for themselves.

    I mean these days, it's fucking rare to even get a hello from people in oQueue, LFR, Heroics and alsorts, it makes zero effect on gameplay, but it pisses me off to no end, is it so hard to just say "hi" or thanks at the end of the run?
    The best is when you're like, "Hey guys, how's it going?" and you get "just go" back.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lalicat View Post
    I think that's why you see some other games instituting methods to curb toxic behaviour. As soon as you have total anonymity, the type of behaviour OP described becomes prevalent. It's just human nature. The gaming community as a whole has grown MASSIVELY, even from 5 years ago.

    Hell, when I've been in bad groups I'll totally admit to just ditching it - who could find me? Would it affect my reputation? Do I know anyone in the group? Nope. It's easier to just leave. If I pulled that in the past then it would be likely that if that raid leader formed a raid group again, I would NOT get an invite...and because my groups were limited to my server only that would be have been bad news for me.

    What's interesting to me is that as oQueue and "preferred queuing/groups" is becoming popular, you're seeing the return of that type of reputation. While groups are cross-server you DO have a reputation to maintain. If you're a "good" player then it's likely that you may be re-invited for future raids by a specific raid leader, or may have an easier time inviting folks from your cross-server friends list, because they know they can rely on you.

    I don't think it has any "bad" or "good" or "omg the old days were better" connotations... It's just the way it is. The game has grown, and now it's up to us/Blizzard to find solutions to the toxic attitudes that have been created because of it.
    1) Stop using meaningless buzzwords like toxic. What one person considers toxic can be not even close to what another does.

    2) Those games (League of Legends) were anonymous to begin with. People being jerks, uncooperative, griefing/throwing the game existed in games like League because it was ALWAYS a random group unless you specifically made friends. It had so many behavior problems because of the nature of the game. Its playerbase was also different, most of them being 9-12 year olds (not just behaving like them, but actually being that age) who came from other game communities like Call of Duty. Since matchmaking in these games was often random, the playerbase interested in it was the playerbase that not only behaves poorly, but fully abuses the matchmaking functionality to have no accountability. In essence, they want to play their own game, but have some other warm bodies to fill the slots needed.

    WoW isnt this kind of game, at least it hadn't been. Unfortunately these players eventually came to WoW. They didn't care about progression, they didn't care about socializing, they didn't care about teamwork, just wanted to play their way. Unfortunately, this works even worse in WoW where it is heavily group oriented, and you just can't play your way in a group when it impacts others. Now WoW had a solution, these players were removed from group, blacklisted and ignored. Unfortunately they became upset that Blizzard didn't let them play their way, so they pushed for a system that didn't leave any singular player in control, like a leader, but let the game just sort it out for them. Instead of telling them to screw off, Blizzard let them get this system. And they wanted more, because hey, now they can get into their dungeons without needing to bother knowing their class, but the mean elitists don't let them raid. That was later put in. Same with battleground queues which came earlier since the meanie elitists didn't let them into their PvP grinding group.

    There is no way to curb toxic behavior because one player's opinion on what is and isn't toxic is not the same as anothers. The ONLY solution is for Blizzard to grow some balls and stop letting people freely ignore the playerbase. Each player needs to be capable of stopping what THEY feel is "toxic" behavior instead of needing a group consensus.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiferr View Post
    Personally, when I play WoW, I'm the type of player who helps out others. I find satisfaction in doing my part of making someone else's WoW experience more enjoyable. For example, if I'm not busy, and I see someone asking in public channels for a ride somewhere on a flying mount, I generally do it, because I know it's a huge help to someone for almost zero effort of my own.

    But what drives people to screw others over? Such as ganking, taking payment for things they actually have no intention of doing (ie, paying for a quick queue and takes the gold and run), not paying for services (such as running through instances), or just acting like a know-it-all egotistical jerk because you know more about a game than another person.

    Over the years, the community seems to have gotten worse and worse. I remember the days where adventuring together with other players was exciting and fun and sociable. Now it's just a game of who screws over who the first and the hardest.

    Just a thought, anyone else have any input? Maybe some good "fuck-over" stories? I'll leave mine:

    The other day, a player was asking in trade for an Ulduar 25 man carry for transmog gear. He particularly needed the tier shoulders off Yogg-Saron. He offered to pay upwards of 10k; 5k for the Yogg kill, 5k if the shoulders dropped. It was starting at Iron Council. I got two of my friends, took about an 60-90 minutes to do. Yogg dies, he takes his shoulders, drops group and is never to be heard from again. Douchebag thing to do in my opinion.
    Just report him. Scamming is a thing. Blizz can read his chat log promising the 10k, then they'll remove 10k from him and give it to you.

  13. #73
    In my opinion there is a small sample of idiots. these people are always idiots.

    then there is the large sample who feel.. if they are treated like sh1t theyll treat OTHERS like shite as some twisted kharmic vengeance... this of course does nothing but turn the community toxic.

    then there are those who are able to interact online without being total mongs. I like to call these people 'people who were spanked as a child'

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    People for the most part only do things for themselves.

    I mean these days, it's fucking rare to even get a hello from people in oQueue, LFR, Heroics and alsorts, it makes zero effect on gameplay, but it pisses me off to no end, is it so hard to just say "hi" or thanks at the end of the run?
    This is a pet peeve of mine. I try to at the very least say "thx" at the end of every run. I always make it a point to reply with a "hello" if someone says hello first. It's just common courtesy. I hate it when someone say "hello" and there's dead silence.
    Another was a Warlock, he was farming warbringers, not for the mount, just for Shado-pan rep items, he saw me trying to kill them on my warrior and asked if I wanted to help, "I just want rep, already got the mount", I was unsure if he'd just actually ninja the mount, but I said okay anyway, we proceeding to fly around killing the warbringers, he got shado-pan exalted in about half an hour, he only needed a few, BUT, he then proceeded to spend the next FOUR hours helping me so I could get my mount, and this was at like 3/4am, we finally gave up at 5am, the next day we whispered me asking if I wanted help getting the mount again, I checked his armory, he already had all the mounts, and actually wanted to help me get the mount.
    Really nice story! Thanks for sharing.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    1) Stop using meaningless buzzwords like toxic. What one person considers toxic can be not even close to what another does.

    2) Those games (League of Legends) were anonymous to begin with. People being jerks, uncooperative, griefing/throwing the game existed in games like League because it was ALWAYS a random group unless you specifically made friends. It had so many behavior problems because of the nature of the game. Its playerbase was also different, most of them being 9-12 year olds (not just behaving like them, but actually being that age) who came from other game communities like Call of Duty. Since matchmaking in these games was often random, the playerbase interested in it was the playerbase that not only behaves poorly, but fully abuses the matchmaking functionality to have no accountability. In essence, they want to play their own game, but have some other warm bodies to fill the slots needed.

    WoW isnt this kind of game, at least it hadn't been. Unfortunately these players eventually came to WoW. They didn't care about progression, they didn't care about socializing, they didn't care about teamwork, just wanted to play their way. Unfortunately, this works even worse in WoW where it is heavily group oriented, and you just can't play your way in a group when it impacts others. Now WoW had a solution, these players were removed from group, blacklisted and ignored. Unfortunately they became upset that Blizzard didn't let them play their way, so they pushed for a system that didn't leave any singular player in control, like a leader, but let the game just sort it out for them. Instead of telling them to screw off, Blizzard let them get this system. And they wanted more, because hey, now they can get into their dungeons without needing to bother knowing their class, but the mean elitists don't let them raid. That was later put in. Same with battleground queues which came earlier since the meanie elitists didn't let them into their PvP grinding group.

    There is no way to curb toxic behavior because one player's opinion on what is and isn't toxic is not the same as anothers. The ONLY solution is for Blizzard to grow some balls and stop letting people freely ignore the playerbase. Each player needs to be capable of stopping what THEY feel is "toxic" behavior instead of needing a group consensus.
    Toxic may or may not be a buzzword, but the definition is clear. I could just as easily say stop using hundreds of different words because "one person considers that word to not even be close" to another's definition.
    Toxic: the degree to which a substance(player or community) can damage an organism(game). Based on the definition and how it's used in business, and every time I've seen someone use this word at least on these forums, they're using it as defined in the dictionary. Here's another example of what toxic could look like and perhaps this is what you mean? People who tell other people what words they're allowed or not allowed to use in a game forum because they magically deem the word 'meaningless'. But personally I wouldn't call this toxic, I'd call it something else. But if you're saying people are using the word and have no clue what it really means, I would grant you that possibility. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here a bit. Don't take it too seriously, unless you find my response...toxic.?.

  16. #76
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    The story in the OP is subject to TOU violation. The player simply scammed the OP, and should be reported for it.
    Pretty sure Blizzard will teach him a little lesson. They are capable of reading the logs, and if a deal is agreed on its basically binding, or else it's scamming.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  17. #77
    Mainstream propaganda destroyed this world.

  18. #78
    Field Marshal tinystomper's Avatar
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    over the years of being forced into groups of anonymous people with acidic attitudes, many players have developed a shell towards other players in the hopes of minimizing the abuse. as people now have the choice to choose which leaders/players they want to run with, the environment should start to improve. the acidic players will get more acidic as their nature precludes them from running with a group more then once... until finally there are no leaders that will have them and no players that would want to group with them. this could result in the acidic players working on their attitude or being left with solo only content (which is what they want anyhow)

  19. #79
    I think it would help if people understood that "I" is a hallucination, and everything is relative. Too much my way is the only right way in society, and it's built into most religions. America stays the way it does because divide and conquer. Diversity used to be Americas strength. Now it's a weakness.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Seja Victrix View Post
    Just report him. Scamming is a thing. Blizz can read his chat log promising the 10k, then they'll remove 10k from him and give it to you.
    Wrong. Tried already when I got scammed: they WILL punish the offending party, but not refund the offended party, as in in this case they wouldn't give you the gold, although they may take some actions against the one who promised 10k and didn't keep it.

    Now for personal experience, I have 2 different situations.

    A level 70 rogue asked for a boost in black temple in trade, paying 500 gold, he wasn't going for the legendary, just some gear; I asked him how about 250 at start, 250 in the end, and towards the end I noticed he started needing everything "I'm paying you for this, I guess I can take whatever I want", even cloth stuff, etc., and in the end after killing illidan, he ignored me and left. Obviously blacklisted and when I see him in trade I'm always ready to make bad advertisement.

    Another time a level 76 paladin asked for a boost in sunwell, mostly was going for experience I think, for 300 gold; I asked him how about 50 gold per boss? He said ok, and we did like it, we also talked a bit during the run, and I also told him about the experience I had with that rogue, and after killing kil'jaeden, which also dropped the bow and no one could use it, lol (paladin + dk), let him have it to collect, then I asked "can I have the other 50 gold or are you going to ignore me?", he gave me 75!

    Now, I have around 850k gold and certainly the 250 gold of the rogue or the 50 of the paladin wouldn't have made a difference, it's all about the gesture of the player ofc.

    After this, he asked if he could call me again in case, I told him yes, but as I had 26 dks in 26 different realms it'd have been unlikely to find me, so added battle tag, I said "why not, you proved to be a honest person" "I like to think so", and now we became friends and just help each other for free.

    Whereas if I meet that rogue ninja or an alt of his, I'm still looking for a REVENGE!

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