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  1. #21
    When sub games go f2p its a decent indication that the game sucks and is slowly dying. i rather pay 15-20 euro a month for a good game than playing some crap, where i need everyone else to buy hats and dolls, to get new content

  2. #22
    if you want to see why f2p is such a bad thing look at team fortress 2
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  3. #23
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    if you want to see why f2p is such a bad thing look at team fortress 2
    TF2 was fine until they started letting practically any and every item into the game. Not only did it destroy the game's aesthetic, it also fucked with the game's balance.

    I'm glad they're going purely cosmetic-only with Dota 2, though some sets make me worry about the aesthetics already :-/
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  4. #24
    Pandaren Monk schippie's Avatar
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    A payment method is not what is going to save or change the MMO genre. I am even of the opinion that once you are paying for something on a monthly base it forces players to play more often which contributes to the health of a MMO. Yet again it doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be looking at what payment method would work better, but at the game aspects instead.

    Lets be frank over the past 5 years we have seen rarely any new good MMORPGs that try and dare to do new things. Yet deliver the polish standard blizzard does. Nor do they deliver the same frequency of content updates which is another large problem.

    Besides this i also think we should look different at MMORPG players.. i think you have WoW players (who only play wow and don't care if it is a mmorpg or something else but play it for the game it is ) and the MMORPG player. That second group used to be substantially smaller in comparison to WoW players in the west. WoW drew a lot of players into the mmorpg genre but i believe a large chunk of those players will never pick up another mmorpg.

  5. #25
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schippie View Post
    ALets be frank over the past 5 years we have seen rarely any new good MMORPGs that try and dare to do new things. Yet deliver the polish standard blizzard does. Nor do they deliver the same frequency of content updates which is another large problem.
    GW2 is a step in the right direction; their issue is that the PvP in the game is fucking horrible (which is a problem when it was a major selling point), and that most people who play MMOs are still in the "raiding is the endgame" mindset.

    I'm interested to see what Firefall does about this problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk schippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    GW2 is a step in the right direction; their issue is that the PvP in the game is fucking horrible (which is a problem when it was a major selling point), and that most people who play MMOs are still in the "raiding is the endgame" mindset.

    I'm interested to see what Firefall does about this problem.
    The problem is that developers shouldn't be fighting that mindset its pointless and a waste of time honestly. And yes GW2's PVP was a mess.. horrible and just not fun, besides that its idea of no tank/healer/dps specific roles backfired if you ask me. Leaving most classes feeling unsatisfactory and "directionless".

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    All models will be in the market forever, no model is going away. We will see F2P, B2P and Subscription based games for a long time.
    This.

    The main.problem with subsciption right now is that devs are basically using it as a cash grab before transitioning to f2p or they are exploiting the majority of their subscibers by taking their money and devloping content for a minority. The subsciption model needs to be less exploitive in order to be worth supporting again. (Sent from phone)
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  8. #28
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schippie View Post
    The problem is that developers shouldn't be fighting that mindset its pointless and a waste of time honestly. And yes GW2's PVP was a mess.. horrible and just not fun, besides that its idea of no tank/healer/dps specific roles backfired if you ask me. Leaving most classes feeling unsatisfactory and "directionless".
    My problem was it's amusingly far too fast-paced for there to be any real decision-making or planning. I really feel like WoW is still the best game in town for MMO-PvP, despite the fucking awful balance and anemic developer interest.

    I agree that there's nothing wrong with raiding being the designated endgame, but I do think it's critically important that there being a lot of other content to spend time on that isn't daily quests and other assorted grinds.

    One thing that I feel GW2 gets absolutely, totally right is the leveling process - there's tons of content of all different types to do, and even better, your level 80 buddies can easily do it with you at any time. And it even works in reverse for some things (all PvP content, most living world content, etc is all level 80.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    This.

    The main.problem with subsciption right now is that devs are basically using it as a cash grab before transitioning to f2p or they are exploiting the majority of their subscibers by taking their money and devloping content for a minority. The subsciption model needs to be less exploitive in order to be worth supporting again. (Sent from phone)
    I agree. Especially with WoW, if you aren't raiding, you aren't getting much from your $15 a month; it's clear that the majority of development time goes into creating, tuning, and re-tuning raids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Agoonga's Avatar
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    I like having monthly fees more than free-to-play more because free-to-play games sell cool looking stuff for real money that I usually can't afford and would probably never buy.

    In free-to-plays, I log in as a level 1 that's naked running at half speed then someone that payed RL money for extra stuff goes zooming by on a hover board with a full set of armor. I would rather think I was paying for monthly services rather than purchasing virtual items because that feels lame to me, even if the guy with all of the crazy stuff he bought with RL money spent less than $15 a month on it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by samthing View Post
    As there currently is and has been only one really successful free to play MMO (World of Tanks), I'd say the subscription based system won't be going away from WoW anytime soon.

    If you've played World of Tanks, you know that in long run it's not really feasible to keep playing free, because the grinding jumps to korean-levels. Then again, someone who pays big money can advance very quickly and has some advantage in gameplay too.

    WoW going to microtransactions would mean gear for money, xp/vp/cp buffs for money, tons of cosmetics and toy items for money. I'd rather have a fair playing field than cough up 50€ so that I don't have to grind five times longer.
    Indeed. IMO sub based games are a better option. It gives the company money to spend more on keeping the game up with better servers and frequent updates and content. And come on, it's only what, 10-11€ a month? That's nothing, I can't even order a pizza and a soda for that money, cause hats 16-20€. You can imagine it like this, every 5-6 months of game time is like 1 new game. And imo if you're subed for 5-6 months you've spend more time playing wow (and I guess enjoying it?) then you would with any other new game. Like those single player gamers, you spend 10 hours and you're done with it. Instead you can spend tens if not hundreds of hours in WoW at the same time. And there's always something new coming, and its fairly balanced(anyone saying it isn't your knowledge of video games is zero).

  11. #31
    I think this is a pretty much a highly debatable topic and has been for a very long time with strong and vocal support for both sides.

    However, time and time again I still feel a subscription model is the lesser of all the "evils" (sub models) out there. This is coming from someone that was new to MMOs and WoW was my very first. So its not like I've always pay $15.00 a month.

    There are just so many reasons to give and state that you could practically write a book. Honestly, every single model can work, but the companies and studios are the ones that have to take the initiative to make it work. The sad thing is that every game studio out there is looking to maximise their revenue and profits. The thing with a B2P -is that if its an MMOs, there is always a lack of end game focus. We don't have a lot to go by this besides GW2.

    Now with the F2P model, sure the game is free, but I ain't and never will be a fan of the micro transaction model. The world feels locked. I remember after reading the LOTR books, I looked into getting into LoTR Online many years back. Their F2P model was probably one of the best, but reading through their payment plans, it was just too overwhelming and you just had so many things to keep track off after you've started playing like limited bags, quests, etc. This is also the easiest model where companies can manipulate to get even bigger profits. They change a few things in the in game store. They limit a few more things requiring you to buy and invest in the game to make it more efficient. And all those that say F2P games ain't P2W, they usually tend to go down that route eventually. I mean what would you call gear or even items that are only achieved through defeating and completing at the highest level available for a price in the game store? Its P2W.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So where can the industry go? Some companies, like Guild Wars 2's ArenaNet, have sort of split the difference; GW2 has an upfront box cost (usually $50, but it will frequently go on sale for $30 or less), but once that's paid, it's completely free to play, and there's a relative lack of grinding throughout. ArenaNet also has a cash shop and cash currency where you can buy a wide variety of boosters, cosmetic items, and things like additional inventory, bank, or character slots. And it seems to be working quite well for them.

    And while I really like that business model, it's hardly the only one possible.
    LOL _ no grinding in GW2? LOLOLOLOL - while not as grindy as pure Asian MMOs, it's still pretty dang grindy.

    Why not make subscription models broken up into segments? $5 for open world, $5 for access to ranked PvP, $5 for access to raiding content? I'd be glad to pay $5 a month for just the open world/questing content in WoW or FF14, and if I decided I had a desire to raid or do some PvP... well, I can easily add that my subscription!
    Simple - you pay $5 for open world. Max out everything there, then you pay $5 for raiding content. Pay for that for a month or two to get all the gear for the current tier, then you stop paying the $5 a month for it. So now you're all decked out in the best gear, and the game company isn't getting anything further from you. Now, they could mitigate this somewhat by requiring you to buy X months of access at once instead of allowing it to be changed monthly....

    Or why not do something akin to the old Guild Wars model, where there's no subscription fee, and you instead release small expansions pretty regularly, at reasonable prices? Imagine if WoW had no subscription fee, but instead you had to pay a one-time $20 fee if you wanted to access that new patch's raid content, the new PvP season, new quests and zones, and things like that?
    I think this is the direction many games are going. EQNext/Landmark are going to be that way I believe.

    Lastly - as long as the publisher of a subscription-based MMO keeps fixing/adding things as part of that sub, I'm fine with it. $15 a month is 50 cents a day....if you can't afford that, maybe you're not doing it right.....

  13. #33
    I hate F2P/P2W. Everything feels so cheap about those games. And the support is bad aswell.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So where can the industry go? Some companies, like Guild Wars 2's ArenaNet, have sort of split the difference; GW2 has an upfront box cost (usually $50, but it will frequently go on sale for $30 or less), but once that's paid, it's completely free to play, and there's a relative lack of grinding throughout. ArenaNet also has a cash shop and cash currency where you can buy a wide variety of boosters, cosmetic items, and things like additional inventory, bank, or character slots. And it seems to be working quite well for them.

    And while I really like that business model, it's hardly the only one possible.
    Well sure its working for them. But this is a very personal decision something which each company has to decide on. Its deciding what their aim for the game is and what their goal is. GW2 doesn't really have retaining power or even the end game to compete with a P2P MMO. Its pretty much Skyrim with multiplayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why not make subscription models broken up into segments? $5 for open world, $5 for access to ranked PvP, $5 for access to raiding content? I'd be glad to pay $5 a month for just the open world/questing content in WoW or FF14, and if I decided I had a desire to raid or do some PvP... well, I can easily add that my subscription!
    Well it would not be called a subscription modelthen. This is part of the F2P model, where everything is locked and limited depending on what you buy. Like I said, this becomes way too complicated in the long run. So you spend $5 to try this new raid. And now you don't like it or find it too much of a challenge. What are you going to do if you never want to go back? You just spent $5 and threw it down the drain.

    And I can't believe this and how ignorant most people are, but I've done the rough maths and I can tell you that you will spend a lot more in a F2P game for the same duration than what you would have paid for game that required you to pay a subscription for. Take League of Legends for example, would you prefer to pay $15/monthly and have access to all champions and skins and runes with no restrictions or would you prefer to pay $10 for each champion you buy? I think I'd pick the $15/month plan. Sure these are two different genres but the idea is still the same. F2P games do cost more and not by a little often 5/6 times more.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by samthing View Post
    As there currently is and has been only one really successful free to play MMO (World of Tanks), I'd say the subscription based system won't be going away from WoW anytime soon.

    If you've played World of Tanks, you know that in long run it's not really feasible to keep playing free, because the grinding jumps to korean-levels. Then again, someone who pays big money can advance very quickly and has some advantage in gameplay too.

    WoW going to microtransactions would mean gear for money, xp/vp/cp buffs for money, tons of cosmetics and toy items for money. I'd rather have a fair playing field than cough up 50€ so that I don't have to grind five times longer.
    World of tanks, however, is pay to win. The premium tanks at any given tier are generally better than anything you can level up to for free. Premium ammo is ALWAYS better.

    So while World of Tanks/Warplanes is free to play, they are both pay-to-win. And paying to win sucks for those not wanting to spend money for equal footing.

  16. #36
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Seeing how "castrated" the f2p model appeared to me - unless you actually do pay for convinience...I sure hope the sub model stays.
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  17. #37
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    I personally prefer just paying a manageable amount once a month and getting the full game for it. If the sub model dies I wouldn't be happy about it.
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  18. #38
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    I think there's room for both currently, but I do believe that F2P games is the future.

    I'm currently playing a few F2P games, games which has hit that sweet spot of being consumer friendly enough (PoE & Warframe); I'm playing no sub. based game and I don't really have any plans on doing so either.
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  19. #39
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    There is a big difference you're missing. F2p is doesn't mean it's play-to-win. In fact the only "play-to-win" games I can think of are garbage grind fests from some Asian company. High quality, story driven, MMOs are not play-to win. Could you name one please?

  20. #40
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    Well it would not be called a subscription modelthen. This is part of the F2P model, where everything is locked and limited depending on what you buy. Like I said, this becomes way too complicated in the long run. So you spend $5 to try this new raid. And now you don't like it or find it too much of a challenge. What are you going to do if you never want to go back? You just spent $5 and threw it down the drain.
    That happens with WoW, too. I resubbed a couple months ago, with the idea of playing with a friend of mine, and I got bored within two hours of playing it again. $15 down the drain. What's your point?

    And I can't believe this and how ignorant most people are, but I've done the rough maths and I can tell you that you will spend a lot more in a F2P game for the same duration than what you would have paid for game that required you to pay a subscription for. Take League of Legends for example, would you prefer to pay $15/monthly and have access to all champions and skins and runes with no restrictions or would you prefer to pay $10 for each champion you buy? I think I'd pick the $15/month plan. Sure these are two different genres but the idea is still the same. F2P games do cost more and not by a little often 5/6 times more.
    Or you could play Dota 2 and experience a truly free to play game

    I'm not saying F2P is better than sub-based models. I'm saying they both suck and the answer is somewhere in between.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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