Demon hunter vs tinker/ alchemist class

[Teriz]

You no longer have a WC3 DH, you have a WoW DH. Exact same as the DK and Paladin transitions into WoW, who are no longer WC3 Heroes (LOL DK's don't use Frost Magic in WC3!!!!)

DKs didn't use Frost magic, but Arthas and the scourge did. It stands to reason that Arthas' generals would also be able to use it when you expand the concept. The cold of death, the Lich Kings connection to Northrend, and the Lich hero all lend themselves to that concept.

You expand the DH concept and you get Warlocks.

Also, Heroes of the Storm opens up some new gameplay hooks to draw from. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 translation, but the Mark of Azzinoth combo system and high mobility dashing could be interesting in WoW.

Sounds like wonderful mechanics to give to the Rogue class.

There's a Tinker hero in HotS as well.

[Thimagryn]

Arthas in WC3 didn't use Frost Magic at all. Know when he did use Frost magic? Wrath of the Lich King, where playable Death Knights were introduced.

No matter how you look at it, WoW classes stray from WC3's formula. So really, WC3 has nothing to do with WoW class concepts other than being a starting point.

[Futhark]

No matter how you look at it, WoW classes stray from WC3's formula. So really, WC3 has nothing to do with WoW class concepts other than being a starting point.

A couple months ago, I argued that with 9+ years of lorebuilding, WoW has more than enough of its own story to not need the RTS as a lore-crutch anymore.

Then we get an expansion that has us playing WC2 over again, and I have to just shake my head in dismay. I don't understand why they don't have more faith in themselves.

[Thimagryn]

I don't see WoD as a drawback. As a huge fan of WC2 - WoD is not WC2. WoD is more of a side story for a world we've never actually encountered before. We've encountered post-Legion Draenor, which is pretty much Outland before and after the splitting. We've never really seen it before the Legion came and corrupted the world. There's almost no Azeroth representation here.

Personally, I would have rather seen the return of Turalyon and Alleria.

[vindicatorx]

I have recently seen a lot of demonhunter posts and tinker/alchemist class posts
Which class out of these would you like to see implemented, if any


Gogogogo discuss

recently = six + months ago right?

[Yig]

Just about every objection you see to demon hunters being possible would have applied to Deathknights never happening either. But people love their canards.

Melee paladins didn't make priests obsolete. Melee warlocks wouldn't make warlocks obsolete. Warlocks got metamorphosis purely as an easter egg treat that seemed cool at the time for demon hunter fans, it wasn't meant to obliterate the chances of the class ever happening, if it was, they've got a lot of work left to do see that idea through. Just as rogues got the Cursed Vision of Sargeras item appearance and a pair of legendary warglaives.

Every single DK ability in WC3 existed in WOW mechanic wise before they were added to the game in WC3 outside of cosmetics, the only thing DKs brought was a strong and iconic visual theme and class kit with new ways to present old mechanics with an undead black knight aesthetic. You could already speed up the movement speed of friendly units in Vanilla wow, you could already summon a pet or minion in Vanilla wow, you could already launch a melee DPS spell in WOW similar to death coil, you already had another version of death coil, you could already wear black evil armor covered in skulls and use giant evil rune blades in Vanilla wow, and that's all Deatknights could do in Warcraft 3.

So *gasp*, Blizzard took the strenths of their iconography and put new twists on those mechanics, fabricated an entirely new resource mechanic to game, and then created three new talent trees with dozens of abilities from scratch that had nothing to do with WC3 and made them into a class.

Let's not even apply this to Brewmasters.

People either don't like demon hunters because they're "popular and cool" or they don't think this shit through. The value to drawing back classic Warcraft players is relevant to Blizzard's interests, as well as relevant to their own personal passions for what kicks ass in the Warcraft Universe.

If Blizzard wants them, they'll find a way.

It could be anything from novel expanded class specs, novel advanced shared class progression paths, to a new class or hero class, to purely novel and cosmetic forms of transmogging and glyphing based on the Hero Units of Warcraft 3 for lore nuts.

But this is always a great example to see how limited the imaginations are of some of the people here despite their confidence in passing judgement, as well as seeing the demon hunter haters and lovers come out of the wood work.

We now have a brand new no Illidan associated faction of hero demon hunters that have secretly existed for thousands of years known as the Dark Embrace introduced in Cataclysm, much as the Ebon Blade exists. And for some reason Blizzard refuses to allow the literal pile of Elven warglaives from being allowed to be used in the game. It's almost as if they are saving them for something instead of just letting us pretend to use the lore of the game in an MMORPG based on the World of Warcraft.

[Deleted]

Would they implement a new weapon type (glaives) as well as let demon hunters use swords and daggers ?


Also very good point we never get to use glaives

[Teriz]

Arthas in WC3 didn't use Frost Magic at all. Know when he did use Frost magic? Wrath of the Lich King, where playable Death Knights were introduced.

No matter how you look at it, WoW classes stray from WC3's formula. So really, WC3 has nothing to do with WoW class concepts other than being a starting point.

You seem to be missing the point; Arthas became the Lich King at the end of WC3. So it's not much of a stretch for DKs to have frost abilities. It also helps that cold and death go together.

In short, DKs were capable of pulling from Arthas for class expansion. A Demon Hunter class would pull from Illidan. The problem with that is Illidan is currently being used by Warlocks.

There's simply no way around this; Warlocks absorb every expandable concept from Demon Hunters. That's by Blizzards design.

[Immitis]

people can deny it all they want and bicker and argue demon hunters remain the most popular future class for over 9 years. its a matter of when not if

[Thimagryn]

You seem to be missing the point; Arthas became the Lich King at the end of WC3. So it's not much of a stretch for DKs to have frost abilities. It also helps that cold and death go together.

In short, DKs were capable of pulling from Arthas for class expansion. A Demon Hunter class would pull from Illidan. The problem with that is Illidan is currently being used by Warlocks.

There's simply no way around this; Warlocks absorb every expandable concept from Demon Hunters. That's by Blizzards design.

Doesn't matter what Arthas became, Arthas is not the Playable Death Knight. That's the difference.

If Demon Hunters are archetypes of what Illidan became, then should Demon Hunters be able to summon Naga, Fire Elementals, cause earthquakes and open Portals into Draenor as well? It's not a stretch if you're using your logic, but it's flawed logic when applying it to the context of a playable character class. Arthas was a reference point, as is Illidan, for any archetype. When you say expanding a Demon Hunter equates a Warlock/Rogue, you're only perpetuating a myth.

Death Knights are influenced by Arthas, but they are also beyond his archetype. A Blood-Spec Worgen wielding a 2H Axe is nothing like Arthas, yet no less a Death Knight. By that right, a specialized Demon Hunter could have nothing to do with Illidan, Warlocks or Demons and still be a Demon Hunter.

I honestly ask you, if we're only using previous Warcraft as a template for classes, explain how a Blood Spec Worgen with an Axe could be considered a 'Death Knight'? Exceptions to the rule must exist, and if you say that straying from WC3 means a Demon Hunter can't be a Demon Hunter, then the current playable Death Knights are also not Death Knights.

Taking a step further, Illidan in Heroes of the Storm doesn't have any of his abilities from Warcraft 3, yet we will still know that character as an archetypical Warcraft Demon Hunter because he's a fast melee wielding Warglaives and semi-demonic abilities. He's not a rogue, he's not a warlock, he's a Warcraft Demon Hunter.

[Talen]

hell no. demon hunters would be their own class. demon hunters wear leather and sometimes use mail.

And I usually/always see them in game wearing cloth trousers and very little else. Its also noteworthy that the new gear changes remove one of the big obstacles to an AGI based Warlock spec....the need for dedicated AGI cloth gear at low levels.

I still see next to no possibility of a standalone DH class ever being implemented. There is too much overlap with existing classes...primarily, the Warlock which has received a lot of DH style additions over the past few years. A class that has been mined so extensively for the benefit of other classes makes for a very poor addition as so much of what it can offer is already in game.

The possibility of a redesigned DH class does exist to a greater degree but would also bring with it all the baggage associated with the current in game representation...i.e. Why call it a DH if it shares nothing with the class players associated with the name?

There are three problems associated by many with a Warlock based DH spec.

The first is the one you have demonstrated here....certain players have their own interpretation of what a DH is. This may be based on perception or on source material such as the non canon RPGs. Your belief that DHs wear leather, for example, is not one that has ANY canonical corroboration.

Blizzard is not, however, obligated to follow the individual interpretations of its player base.

Secondly, and related to the first is the belief that a Warlock based DH is not supported by lore. That the Warlock class cannot support a DH spec because Warlocks are bad and selfish whilst a DH is good and selfless. That a DH cannot be represented by a Warlock spec because they are different.

Of course, this ascribes character backstory, history, motivations and character to be part and parcel of game design. Something that holds true for no other class or spec. It also presumes to lock in as characters personal story....there can be no good Warlocks, no bad or selfish Demon Hunters if this argument held any weight.

It never has and likely never will. Sunwalkers, Paladins and Blood Knights all have very different beliefs, motivations, drives...yet all are Paladins. A Shadow Priest is VERY different in beliefs and motivations from a typical Holy Priest. the trained soldier is not the same as a barbarian warrior but both are warriors.

The third is that Warlocks are ranged and DHs are seen as a melee class. It is unfortunate for this argument that Blizzard is known for adding and altering abilities, especially for a new XPac.

All things considered....a new DH brings nothing to the game that is not already covered by an existing class, most prominently Warlocks. The exception to this would be new gameplay...which is an aspect that could be assigned to any new class and is not something only a DH could bring.

So, back to the OP....while I would like to see DHs in game, I see little probability of their development as a full standalone class. Tinkers, having a class theme that is largely unrepresented, would appear to offer more benefit to the game.

Just about every objection you see to demon hunters being possible would have applied to Deathknights never happening either. But people love their canards.

The problem is not really the move list. The problem is not even the school of magic, which is an unimportant aspect for this debate.

The problems are twofold...

First...class theme. The DH theme revolves around the use of demons and demonic power. That theme can also be, indeed IS, explored by Warlocks and its unlikely Blizzard would duplicate a class theme with a new class. Such a move can only mean BOTH classes are watered down and lose something. And no....this is not class role.

Secondly, and of much less importance...iconic abilities. The abilities that are heavily associated with a particular class. This is not the totally unimportant school of magic, nor even the majority of the spell list. Its that one or two moves that tell players `I am a [class ]`. Such issues can be worked around if necessary...but are still important.

The problem here is that as the Warlock shares both the theme and the DHs most iconic move, it makes a standalone class fairly unlikely.

Melee paladins didn't make priests obsolete.

True...but aside from the unimportant school of magic and the healing role, what overlap in therme, ability, armor, etc does a Paladin share with the Priest? None.

Warlocks got metamorphosis purely as an easter egg treat that seemed cool at the time for demon hunter fans

Ultimately....even if this were true, it does not matter why Warlocks have the ability. Just that they do.

, it wasn't meant to obliterate the chances of the class ever happening, if it was, they've got a lot of work left to do see that idea through.

Depends on how viable you want to make it. A cosmetic system would require Dual wielding skill, a blindfold and the Warglaives or lookalikes opened up to Warlocks.

Full viability would require a full fourth spec to be developed and balanced...but a lot of that work has already been done thanks to the desire to move Warlocks back into the tanking role, even if just to a limited degree.

We now have a brand new no Illidan associated faction of hero demon hunters that have secretly existed for thousands of years known as the Dark Embrace introduced in Cataclysm, much as the Ebon Blade exists

The Dark Embrace is mentioned exactly once. We have no information on what it is, let alone if it still exists, is an
Organisation, is or is not associated with Illidan or anything else

EJL

[Thimagryn]

Warlock -> Demon Hunter doesn't exactly work though.

The problem is inherrently that it mixes different class identities into one. A Warlock with DH Spec is not a Demon Hunter any more than a Hunter with Beastmastery is truly a 'Beastmaster'. It's a specialization, and you're always going to be the core Hunter class. Even if Warlocks use Agi gear and Warglaives and DH-type spells, it's a Warlock with a Melee spec and nothing more. In this same vein, a Frost Mage or a Frost DK will never truly be a 'Lich'. They can use Lich-like abilities, but Liches are not tied to a Mage or Death Knight core class.

Granted, a Warlock with a Melee/Tanking spec could be fun, but that is an entirely different concept.

And since you're bringing up Paladin/Priest comparisons again, Illidan in Heroes of the Storm retains no abilities from Warcraft 3, yet still fits the archetype. The use of Warglaives, the quick movement abilities, the use of Mark of Azzinoth all reflect the thematic style and gameplay of a Demon Hunter (for a MOBA-styled arena game). Those themes could be the new starting point for a WoW-based Demon Hunter class.

Illidan's appearance in Heroes of the Storm represents my entire vision for a DH class that is not bound to the Warlock/Demonic spells based one from Warcraft 3. Here we have a completely recognizable Warcraft Demon Hunter that does not overlap with any Warlock themes. Even the one heroic ability where he turns into a Demon Form is only visual, and works as an AoE damage ability that self-buffs Attack Speed based on number of enemies hit.

[ro9ue]

They should add (or substitute) a Tinker spec to hunters and a Demon Hunter spec to rogues when they get around to revamping those classes.

[Yig]

You seem to be missing the point; Arthas became the Lich King at the end of WC3. So it's not much of a stretch for DKs to have frost abilities. It also helps that cold and death go together.

In short, DKs were capable of pulling from Arthas for class expansion. A Demon Hunter class would pull from Illidan. The problem with that is Illidan is currently being used by Warlocks.

There's simply no way around this; Warlocks absorb every expandable concept from Demon Hunters. That's by Blizzards design.

Standing still casting spells while looking like a demon and occasionally moving aren't pulling from Illidan. Teriz's fanatical need to discount demon hunters as playable became a broken record with occasional new pops and hisses every once in a while, ignoring swathes of points and favoring only the toe holds they can seize upon.

A demon hunter would feasibly play like a rogue and a fury warrior mixed with a paladin, using unholy fel DPS auras, fel or arcane charged attacks, just in one example balancing a tainted energy mechanic before it could possibly harm you for instance constantly in need of upkeep while you discharge in the heat of combat, a number of melee strikes and possible incorporation of acrobatic mechanics,as they are depicted as fleet footed and use a lot visual iconography from ninja and whirling dervish . This kind of objection simply lacks imagination and relies mostly on blanket dismissals. They choose tiny exceptions linking DKs in WOTLK to WC3 as if it's a banner of victory, when it's just arbitrary lines in the sand.

They don't "get" demon hunters, after all their discussions on this subject, they insist on pigeon holing them as warlocks, when the only real similarity is a superficial shared theme revolving around demons and fel energy. A demon hunter is to a paladin what a warlock is to a priest. They are fleet footed warlock/rogue hybrids, as Deathknights were warrior/warlock hybrids.

With the level of custom animations and class flavor injected into the monk class, the same could be done to make demon hunters feel and sound like nothing else you've played in the game. Demon Hunters are much more than simple Illidan clones. Demon hunters are described more like Dwarven Slayers from Warhammer, they sacrifice their soul and life to be a weapon against their greatest foe out of vengeance, grudge, and martyrdom.

Illidan was no martyr. He had good intentions, mired in selfish motivations, and while the Dark Embrace seems to regard him with respect, they do not seem to model themselves after him as the Illidari did. They are not interested in more than the power necessary to protect their ancestral homelands and forests and keep the Burning Crusade from claiming another world. They are a perfect niche for a new anti hero/adventurer. They are not power hungry tyrants committing morally questionable atrocities in the name of the greater good, outside of crossing strict social taboos.

You seem to have shifted your arguments now to claiming Blizzard has no room to flesh out a demon hunter as they did DKs because Arthas had ties with ice. Demon

- - - Updated - - -

A

The Dark Embrace is mentioned exactly once. We have no information on what it is, let alone if it still exists, is an
Organisation, is or is not associated with Illidan or anything else

EJL

It's mentiond both in Darkshore, alluded to by the ghost in the ruins of Darkshore and the note on techniques to becoming a demon hunter, and Sindweller who is living as an NPC in Felwood belongs to them as a practicing member. It's obvious there is something being implied here beyond a flash in the pan. It's easy to ignore and twist every point you have into a context that makes the class a problem, but you're still relying on context, relying on a very guided current of presentation, to make it seem so unlikely. Your opinion here is clouding what could be plausible based on wild conjecture. It's every bit as arbitrary as half my own points and conjecture and lacks the open ended plausibility and precedent of my other points.

I'm the first to admit they may never happen, but there is abundant room for the class to be explored and expanded upon just as there was for DKs and Brewmasters (monks), and your opinion over warlocks being watered down while paladins and priests coexist doesn't alter that, it just demonstrates how much you rely on presentation and context as a basis for criticism.

[Talen]

Warlock -> Demon Hunter doesn't exactly work though.

True....but in pretty much the same way, trained soldier-barbarian warrior doesn't exactly work either. They have different backgrounds, histories, motivations, beliefs, look,feel, etc.

But both are warriors.

The problem is inherrently that it mixes different class identities into one.

Class identity is important....but its also very nebulous. The Arms warrior has a very different identity from the Fury warrior. The Sunwalker is not the same as a Blood Knight. A Shadow Priest is very different from a Holy priest.

You give a Warlock DWing, a blindfold and glaives and you can make him look like a DH. You make use of his existing Glyphs and abilities and he can, to a degree, act like one. You give him a 4th spec and the balance and viability it would bring and the main difference would be some players don't like the idea of DHs being a different take or specialisation of warlocks because it clashes with their own beliefs of what a DH is.

And right now, we don't have a DH identity that actually contradicts the idea that they can be seen as melee specialising warlocks. True, Blizzard wouldn't have to take that path but they gain nothing by watering down the class system by duplicating an existing class theme. Indeed, they can only hurt both warlocks and a hypothetical DH by doing so.

Even if Warlocks use Agi gear and Warglaives and DH-type spells, it's a Warlock with a Melee spec and nothing more.

And what if Blizzard defines a DH as a Warlock who simply focussed his training on melee combat? What if we see Illidan and Feronas and Altruism all brought back as Warlock trainers? What if Blizzard calls this hypothetical 4th spec Demon Hunter?

You could have a situation where players look like DHs, act like DHs, give their characters back stories to emphasise the DH aspect and are called DHs in game. We could even have a situation where known Demon Hunters are called Warlocks and Demon Hunterism described as a branch of Warlockism.

Would you still see their class identities as separate? As player DHs as simply wannabes?

Those themes could be the new starting point for a WoW-based Demon Hunter class.

Those aren't themes. That would be the basis for a gameplay style

A demon hunter would feasibly play like a rogue and a fury warrior mixed with a paladin, using unholy fel DPS auras, fel or arcane charged attacks

This would be how YOU would design them, how YOU see their play style and discounts the possibility the DH could play like that as a warlock spec.

They don't "get" demon hunters, after all their discussions on this subject, they insist on pigeon holing them as warlocks, when the only real similarity is a superficial shared theme revolving around demons and fel energy

The core class theme is hardly a superficial aspect of the design. And its the same for both.

With the level of custom animations and class flavor injected into the monk class, the same could be done to make demon hunters feel and sound like nothing else you've played in the game.

And that isn't dependent on DHs being standalone. This could happen regardless of whetherBlizzard brought in DHs as Warlocks or stand alone, and any new style of gameplay that could be added could be added to any new standalone class be it DH or Tinker or Ranger or Bard or whatever.

Demon Hunters are much more than simple Illidan clones. Demon hunters are described more like Dwarven Slayers from Warhammer, they sacrifice their soul and life to be a weapon against their greatest foe out of vengeance, grudge, and martyrdom.

Even if Blizzard kept that as lore and made it canon, it is a: lore and so irrelevant and b: could easily follow existing precendernt as a spec based lore system as opposed to class.

This shouldn't be a newsflash...but Blizzard doesn't really put a lot of emphasis on lore in class design....and it puts absolutely none on issues relating to aspects such as character back story and motivation.

You seem to have shifted your arguments now to claiming Blizzard has no room to flesh out a demonhunter

It has no room because a: DHs have been strip mined for other classes already and b: has a class theme that's already in use.

It's mentiond both in Darkshore, alluded to by the ghost in the ruins of Darkshore and the note on techniques to becoming a demon hunter

Yes....once.

and Sindweller who is living as an NPC in Felwood belongs to them as a practicing member.

He has no title, the DE isn't mentioned in any quests and I'm unaware of any quotes or gossip text which mentions the DE at all.

The DE is mentioned once in game...the Telarius event. He is the Herald of the Dark Embrace. He drops the Writings of the Dark Herald which open up some of the secrets of training to be DH.

and your opinion over warlocks being watered down while paladins and priests coexist doesn't alter that.

Maybe, but I am not equating a shared school of magic with class theme. Paladins and priests share NOTHING beyond a healing role and a school of magic. Different armors, different play styles, different roles available, different look, and so on. Most importantly, neither priests nor Paladins share a class theme nor do they share any iconic class abilities.

Demon Hunters and Warlocks, however, DO share that all important class theme. Demons. And, less importantly, they share iconic abilities. Less important still, they share lesser abilities, looks and terminology. Indeed, the biggest gameplay difference is that one is melee focussed and the other ranged...and for other classes, that's enough to justify a new spec and not an entire class to explore and develop the same theme.

As for lore...leaving aside personal belief there is nothing in game which contradicts the notion that DHs can be brought in and developed within lore as a melee focussed branch of warlockism.

EJL

[Drilnos]

They should add (or substitute) a Tinker spec to hunters and a Demon Hunter spec to rogues when they get around to revamping those classes.

I know this sort of thing sticks in the craw of demon hunter advocates, but honestly I would not mind tinker-style specs being added to existing classes, so long as the tinkering took center stage in those specs. Let a hunter in tinker spec tame mechanicals and drop really fancy traps and pocket factories and weave rockets into his rotation - and give the class to gnomes - and I'm sold. Unfortunately the only real problem with it is purely an aesthetic one - tier sets for hunters generally look like dead mobs that smelled bad on the outside. And as someone who has tried, I can tell you that transmog gear that looks like it belongs on an engineering hero is depressingly sparse, and most of what there is of it is cloth. Not an insurmountable problem, but it is a problem.

[Wildmoon]

I said long before that next xpac would likely bring no new class at all. There were a lot of people who were so sure that it would certainly bring a new class because they thought WoW's xpac works in pattern. Tinker and DH both have to same possibility to happen which is very low.

It's stupid to argue that either of these class would not happen. They both could be implemented if Blizzard wants to do so. I doubt they will anyway time soon though.

[Yig]

Wacky brainstorming session alert! You've been warned

First, you seem to think fel energy is somehow more class defining for warlocks than the Light is for priests and paladins, I just don't agree there. I see demons being the major thing setting warlocks apart from Magi. And Demon Hunters aren't known for keeping pets or minions beyond Thalipedes in the Blasted Lands. Demons make Warlocks feel like warlocks, not using demonic fire magic, anymore than priests or paladins are too similar for their use of the Light. Otherwise they would just be green mages. Demon minions are the focus in that context if you has to be seen in that light I'll submit.

Demon hunters would not in my mind require or need a pet based class or spec. They want to kill demons, like Paladins want to kill the undead.
And like Paladins are greater champions for good and become heroes, a demon hunter too could dedicate his life to being an adventurer roaming the land to rid it of demons while fighting wtf ever came in his path along the way, the Witcher style.

Now, I'm toally open to them being a 4th warlock spec.

I think it would take extensive work in that it would revamp and crap all over all the established demon hunter zeitgeist we've created as a fanbase with Blizzard's sparse information using the WC3 manual's description of them as a warrior cult of protectors shunned by Kaldorei society along with the always subject to change lore of Metzen's D20 tabletop bible, but I'd simply prefer not to change them from that into something new. Some kind of weird specialized warlock who has decided to train as a martial artist? I'll explore it for the sake of devil's advocate, but first there's the racial issue.

I'd prefer a retcon/embellishment of sorts to know the Dark Embrace came from a pre established cult of zealous night elf warriors who forsook armor for a fighting style devoted to oversized hulking blades used both as armor and as weapons once they get te' spinnin' and a'whirlin'. Illidan trained with these dudes, he did not found them. He wore their vestments in battle. After he got his powers from Sargeras, and a pox on Richard Knack's little toe for ruining everything about Illidan's powers coming from rituals and traditions,...rather it was forced on him like he was mind raped. We could retcon this warrior cult as being more than a bunch of Illidan wannabes who are so weird they cut out their eyeballs just to be like him. But that's beside the point, I'll get back to the point.

As a 4th spec, for one you have to have night elves available to be a demon hunter. I'd rather see metamorphosis stripped myself, to hell with what people think, and see rogues given a 4th spec as demon hunters.

Illidan was only capable of metamorph as of the events of WC3 after Arthas manipulated him to head into Felwood and absorb the skull of Gul'dan. The hero class could only do it because it used the heroes in the story as cloned template molds and could not take context like that into account. The D20 game complicated it more by giving them technical mechanics around metamorph, and then WOW went with it too. So I guess it stays.

Even though Rogues are practically made as a hybrid with elements of both Sentinels, demon hunters, and wardens. They are almost the quintessential Kaldorei class, who could walk while shadowmelded in WC3, and as rogues now use burning black shadow fire in their attacks that could be merged with the whole idea of Chaos energy the demon hunters of WC3 were said to harness, a generic term at the time before fel had been cemented more in it's place.

I think Chaos is actually the mechanic they should resurrect and flesh out as a resource hybridized with fel, similar to light and dark chi perhaps sans the complications.

And for the record, I made it abundantly clear I'd hope my "vision" of demon hunters was MY personal vision here, there was no need to point it out, simply dissect my language, I go out of my way to phrase things as "plausibly" "my opinon" and other similar qualifiers. If not, assume I'm not presenting anything as fact. But you're right about keeping things clear here. We're in many ways arguing something very intangible here and we're struggling to find common ground beyond personal interpretation. But I'm trying to go with a classical and popular view shared by more than just myself here. But to move on.

For Night Elves to be warlocks, we could feasibly have a faction of Shen'dralar from Eldre'Thalas surface, Highborne who served Prince Tortheldrin and aided in the binding of the demon they leached the energy from for so many centuries. They could be fleshed out more to have any number of castes in their society in what is now Dire Maul, Tortheldrin himself fought in a very light and acrobatic style with dual wielding custom spear head glaives. They could have a school of dual wielding blade master highborne warlocks he trained as his honor guard. The blinding will be worked into it.

Now we have an excuse to have a faction of Night Elf warlocks along with magi.

The Kaldorei banned arcane magic for it's ties to the Legion, they've already opened that door, if the Legion is literally an imminent threat, Tyrande has shown she isn't above using fire to fight fire. She freed Illidan after all. This would be some great lore to see Maiev perhaps lead an uprising where we see a civil war of sorts, something to shake up Night Elf lore and give them opportunities to show the savagery Grom was so impressed by. Malfurion sides with his lady but he sheds a tear like the native american dude in the 70s when you littered.

The Dark Embrace, despite your dismissal of them, could surface in support of these new weapons Tyrande is utilizing in the Highborne of Diremaul, and there would be a war between the Wardens and the Demon Hunters. Fun stuff. Wild stuff. I'll move on and get weirder.

Ideally, I want to get more abstract than a 4th spec. I want to get crazy here and bounce some ideas on the wall to see what sticks.

I want to see multiple classes with access to iconic racial hero units from WC 1-3 in a totally new approach to hero classes.

Using a Path of the Titans like mechanic, heavily lore based quest lines taking you across the globe from Azeroth to Outland and wherever else, an advanced talent tree model making heavy use of visual customization glyphs and custom unique racial transmogging armor in place of added spells and abilities to burden the class balance team with, allowing many of the classes which share precedent for the popular hero classes access to simply finally get to run around looking and feeling like the characters and units they came to know and love in the days of the RTS. These could overlap, with lots of custom visual flavor in place of spell bloat.

As they're racially based, I'm going to do the unthinkable and forget balancing them equally for fairness regarding what race your class is, making this impossible, but I want to talk about it anyways.

Night Elf and possibly Blood Elf Rogues could choose a path as Demonhunters, or for Nelves Wardens and epic arch druids with massive horns and claws.
Nelf, Orc, and Troll Hunters could choose a path as Beastmasters or Wardens or Sentinels or Shadow Hunters.
Warlocks could be demon hunters
Orc and Belf Warriors could be blademasters or spellbreakers
Humans could be some kind of epic paladin or the epic gunfighter/marksmen class from the D20 game
Nelf priests could be hybrid sentinels
GOblins and Gnomes get Tinker suits and mechs
Tauren and Orc could be Farseers and Chieftans
Dwarf mountain kings, Wildhammer Gryphon bombers or dwarven mortar specialists with a mini short dwarf NPC companion with lots of delightful audio commentary. "MORTAR COMBAT!!!"

Okay.... okay, Never EVER going to happen, but something between that and a 4th spec I could see happening where a focus is more on class kit flavor and theme over spell bloat to offer new ways of basically doing the same mechanics with new visual flare and an emphasis on beloved lore.

[Wildmoon]

Giving DH to rogue is a stretch. DH is about the whole demon within theme which has next to nothing to do with Rogue.

[corebit]

Renaming Death Coil to Mortal Coil already incited a Warlock shitstorm over it. But it made sense, since the ability belonged to the Death Knight hero in WC3 to begin with, and it was never a demonic ability. You DON'T WANT a bigger shitstorm with taking the Warlocks' Metamorphosis however. And this time, Meta actually suits the warlocks well, instead of the Death Coil debacle.

As it is currently with the state of the game, DHs offer little of unique value to the game. What do you want? Another dual-wielding agility class? As if we don't have enough of those already. Another shadow-demon motif spellcaster? Warlocks already occupy that niche in spades.