Choices.

[Zannis]

The one constant that I can take away from the see-saw that is WoW development is that Blizzard moves from one paradigm to another, alienating one demographic over another. Instead of moving from one thing to another, why not just offer both? Choices seem to be what the ever-diminishing player base wants.

Here's an example: 5 man dungeons vs. Scenarios. Both are beloved by their specific demographics, but we have such a flood of trivial Scenarios that they lost their significance. In addition to that, a large amount of the feedback through Mists is that people miss having new 5's to keep them occupied as the expansion matures. Instead of designing so many diluted Scenarios, wouldn't it have made more sense to have designed less Scenarios and thrown in a new 5 man or two for the SoO patch? Choices.

I say all this in the context of Timeless Isle. Lots of players seem to like it, while those who prefer structured questing and dailies hate them. There are lots of us who LIKE dailies. I'm one of them, but I fail to see why they both can't co-exist peacefully. Why not offer players a 'Free Form' or 'Daily' option in daily quest hubs, much like we had 'PvE' or 'PvP' options in Thunder Isle? Cap them both at identical rewards and reputation per day, and make it a true choice of personal taste.

Choices, people!! People took to the forums in droves to lament the lack of attention to 5 mans in Mists, and now Blizzard has to back-peddle and offer more challenging 5's. I believe I also heard somewhere in the Blizzcon noise that they plan to release a few new 5's as WoD matures as well. I predict history will repeat itself in that there will be a backlash towards the move to Free-form questing, with many people lamenting the loss of structured questing and dailies, much like they lamented the shift away from 5's.

For once in your life, start learning from your mistakes, Blizzard, and offer us more choices. Stop taking them away.

[Deleted]

They itterated on this in several blue posts.

Players play for optimization - not casual choise.

Choise is an illusion. Players whine because they are being deprived of that illusion.

And the answer has been given many times. Players do not know what they want.

They say "I want a pony!" when they want to learn how to ride. It's been said & done a million times.

[Zannis]

And the answer has been given many times. Players do not know what they want.

Players know what they want. I know I like 5 mans and dailies. It's more along the lines that those that complain the loudest are those that are unhappy. To use your example, those who want the Pony rarely offer much more than a thank you. It's those who didn't want it to begin with that say it's been done a million times. It's easy to assume that it's ingratitude when you've got separate demographics arguing on the forums. It isn't the 'same people' complaining about something that was heavily requested. It's that a lot of people don't feel the need to make their voice heard until things shift away from their personal tastes.

[Pull My Finger]

Yeah, sometimes I'm also under the impression that they're swinging like a pendulum when it comes to certain design decisions. I guess it might have something to do with their intern design culture. A lot of times, they'll put something out, see how it does and adjust accordingly. Which sometimes works pretty good, but it also tends to put them in an overly reactive position.

This sometimes makes them unable able to keep up with the landslide. Other times, the reaction turns out excessive - like the frequent to-the-ground-nerfing of previously overpowered abilities, or the complete backsliding from systems that may have had faults, but still could have worked out with a somewhat more sensible design (5 mans, dailies, valor gear, lots of stuff actually). Perhaps a little bit more foresight would do their iterative processes good, but then again, who knows, without really knowing how they operate from the inside.

But you know what they say, hindsight is always 20/20. A lot of stuff looks really clear to us, at the time we get to observe the outcome and effects of design ideas. Players tend to be huge smart asses, despite actually knowing very little about game design in practice. MMO C is full of these bigmouths. And I think there is some truth to the whole "players don't know what they want" thing too.

[PetersenIII]

Choise is an illusion. Players whine because they are being deprived of that illusion.

They acknowledge that choice is an illusion, but shove this new talent system down our throat on the basis that it allows more choice. K. Blizzard could totally run for president.

[Zannis]

Yeah, sometimes I'm also under the impression that they're swinging like a pendulum when it comes to certain design decisions. I guess it might have something to do with their intern design culture. A lot of times, they'll put something out, see how it does and adjust accordingly. Which sometimes works pretty good, but sometimes it seems to put them in an overly reactive position.

This sometimes makes them unable able to keep up with the landslide. Other times, the reaction turns out excessive - like the frequent to-the-ground-nerfing of previously overpowered abilities, or the complete backsliding from systems that may have had faults, but still could have worked with a somewhat more sensible design (5 mans, dailies, valor gear, lots of stuff actually). Perhaps a little bit more foresight would do their iterative processes good, but then again, who knows, without really knowing how they operate from the inside.

Precisely. It seems to be an 'eggs all in one basket' attitude. Scenarios seemed popular at first, but even when people tried to offer feedback that they should also continue on 5 man development, it fell on deaf ears. And so, all eggs were put into the Scenario basket. And while they're cool, they don't offer the sense of accomplishment that a well tuned 5 man designed for current tier gear offers. Likewise, there are times when a quickly consumed Scenario is just what the doctor ordered.

Is it *really* so difficult to imagine an environment that caters to BOTH Free-Form, Timeless Isle hubs, as well as Structured Dailies? If they take approximately the same amount of time to complete, and offer comparable rewards?

[MoanaLisa]

It needs to be said that the design choice with dungeons was not scenarios but larger raids. That doesn't mean that the game designers overall didn't hope that players would take to scenarios, and later on, heroic scenarios as a acceptable replacement. MoP could have likely had both a lot of scenarios and five-man dungeons but that would have come at the expense of the larger raids. For some that might have been an acceptable trade-off and that's fine. For others--specifically those who post frequently and loudly in raid forums--probably not.

I largely agree with the rest of this: Timeless Isle was an interesting experiment for Blizzard and for all I know perhaps they didn't feel they could make any judgments about the viability of the design without removing dailies (mostly). It does seem as if Blizzard has difficulties in figuring out the right balance of activities. You get a lot of one thing and very little of something else. They've done this over and over and it's something of a mystery to me as well why they don't read their feedback and aim for the middle course instead of lurching all the way from one extreme to another. Yes, there were too many dailies in 5.0. People complained. That doesn't mean that everyone was OK with little-to-no-new dailies in 5.4. Again, a balance of things is fine.

I suppose it's possible that the quest design team by the time of 5.4 was busy with new quests for WoD. There's always some reason they can pull out if they wish. But I too wish that they would inventory their various designs for game activities and then strive to hit a better balance among them all.

Choice may be an illusion for some players. For other players--those that aren't necessarily interested in the most efficient path to the absolute best gear--choice is welcome. I understand it's heretical to imagine that people don't take the shortest path to BIS items but there are still a number of players who play for fun, play with friends and guild mates, and for whom a variety of things to do is a prime reason to stick around. My sense is that Blizzard, if they really feel that players only play for optimization, is listening to what they want to hear instead of what 'normal' non-raiding, non-PVP ranked players think. There are a lot of those.

[Pull My Finger]

Is it *really* so difficult to imagine an environment that caters to BOTH Free-Form, Timeless Isle hubs, as well as Structured Dailies? If they take approximately the same amount of time to complete, and offer comparable rewards?

I think they're taking their time with stuff. They're kinda observing it long-term and then decide if they're gonna take it to the next level. They've done this kind of thing a lot times- the test baloon tactic. They did it with 10 man raids. They put out the feelers in TBC. Seeing how ZA and especially Kara went through the roof - bam, next expansion, all raids are available as 10 man versions. You can see that pattern with a lot of stuff they do in the game.

Perhaps it takes them a long time to evaluate the data they collect, or maybe they wouldn't ever get any shit done at all if they thought everything through into the smallest detail. Doing an MMO is difficult in terms of time frame, you're basically in backlog all the time. Just making assumptions here

[Kraineth]

Precisely. It seems to be an 'eggs all in one basket' attitude. Scenarios seemed popular at first, but even when people tried to offer feedback that they should also continue on 5 man development, it fell on deaf ears. And so, all eggs were put into the Scenario basket. And while they're cool, they don't offer the sense of accomplishment that a well tuned 5 man designed for current tier gear offers. Likewise, there are times when a quickly consumed Scenario is just what the doctor ordered.

Is it *really* so difficult to imagine an environment that caters to BOTH Free-Form, Timeless Isle hubs, as well as Structured Dailies? If they take approximately the same amount of time to complete, and offer comparable rewards?

I don't know where you have been for the past 9 years but I have never seen a 5-man added mid-expansion that wasn't facerolled a few weeks later in raid gear. There is no "sense of accomplishment" to 5-man content unless you're gonna do it in greens.

Just because the past expansions have released 5-mans with a raid-patch for catch-up gearing doesn't mean they have to keep doing it until the end of time. You want 5-man content? Take 5 brand new 90's to the timeless isle and kill things together, yay so much fun. Just because it doesn't have a nice little button to queue for doesn't mean you can't do it.

[Zannis]

I think they're taking their time with stuff. They're kinda observing it long-term and then decide if they're gonna take it to the next level. They've done this kind of thing a lot times- the test baloon tactic. They did it with 10 man raids. They put out the feelers in TBC. Seeing how ZA and especially Kara went through the roof - bam, next expansion, all raids are available as 10 man versions. You can see that pattern with a lot of stuff they do in the game. Perhaps it takes them a long time to evaluate the data they collect, or maybe they wouldn't ever get any shit done at all if they thought everything through into the smallest detail. Just making assumptions here

I suppose we'll know more in beta. It's my hope that there are a good mix of dailies, in addition to the rare and chest hunting that made Timeless Isle so popular. Instead of choosing hot fudge over ice cream, combine them both to make a Sundae.

[MoanaLisa]

You want 5-man content? Take 5 brand new 90's to the timeless isle and kill things together, yay so much fun. Just because it doesn't have a nice little button to queue for doesn't mean you can't do it.

And that's an interesting idea, one that I hope we'll see more of in WoD with their new browser for grouping. Why not create groups to go to TI? I mean really. Why not?

[Zannis]

I don't know where you have been for the past 9 years but I have never seen a 5-man added mid-expansion that wasn't facerolled a few weeks later in raid gear. There is no "sense of accomplishment" to 5-man content unless you're gonna do it in greens.

All content gets easier with gear progression, I never claimed otherwise. But when the Icecrown 5's were introduced, they held their own for quite a while. Same with the Zul remakes.

Compare that to Mists, where it's been 3 tiers since we've had new 5's. You've now got DPS and Healers tanking them. At least by introducing some new 5's throughout the expansion, you keep some content relevant.

If anything other than a tank tried tanking Halls of Reflection, even in full Icecrown gear, you most likely were gonna wipe.

[Pull My Finger]

I don't know where you have been for the past 9 years but I have never seen a 5-man added mid-expansion that wasn't facerolled a few weeks later in raid gear. There is no "sense of accomplishment" to 5-man content unless you're gonna do it in greens.

Just because the past expansions have released 5-mans with a raid-patch for catch-up gearing doesn't mean they have to keep doing it until the end of time. You want 5-man content? Take 5 brand new 90's to the timeless isle and kill things together, yay so much fun. Just because it doesn't have a nice little button to queue for doesn't mean you can't do it.

Well, this definitely isn't what I would call an intelligent response.

[Blarglord69]

Choice is an illusion

[wych]

Choice is an illusion

This is a very true statement as much as people hate it. Players will (the vast majority anyway) take the easiest root to the best gear, no matter how boring or tedious it is, Blizzard have said as much themselves.

Whilst a few players may just do what they want for the heck of it, Blizzard will never cater for this minority properly, and in fact they'll probably do what they enjoy anyway regardless of rewards (and i'd probably class myself in this group nowadays)

[TheWindWalker]

They acknowledge that choice is an illusion, but shove this new talent system down our throat on the basis that it allows more choice. K. Blizzard could totally run for president.

You're confusing two different conversations. It wasn't simply "Choice is an illusion. SO SAYETH THE CRAB!" On the previous talent systems they pointed out "No matter how many options you have, players that want to be good will look up a guide with the optimal talent layout and never change it, again." The new talent system is specifically tossed around every few bosses by the top guilds during their progression because sometimes a talent simply won't work on a single-target only fight while another is phenomenal for burst movement but deprives you of permanent boosts.

Apples and mushrooms.

[TyrianFC]

They itterated on this in several blue posts.

Players play for optimization - not casual choise.

Choise is an illusion. Players whine because they are being deprived of that illusion.

And the answer has been given many times. Players do not know what they want.

They say "I want a pony!" when they want to learn how to ride. It's been said & done a million times.

Everything this guy said is 100% right.

It's very true: Players dont know what they want.