DW vs 2h, have we all been forgetting that 2hs have more stats or is it just me?

[Totaltotemic]

MH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 x 1.733) / 2.6 x 0.81 + 14.76 / 2) x 24950.1 = 551095
OH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 x 1.733) / 2.6 x 0.81 + 14.76 / 2) x 12475.05 = 275547
Total = 551095 + 275547 = 826642

It's this part that bothers me. I don't see any reason why this would come out to be lower than the 2h version when the DW AA damage and TS damage are both higher. I think you messed up putting the variables together here somewhere, but again I'm not sure what half of these are or your reasoning for putting them in that order. I can see you're trying to get some kind of average multiplier for AA + TS damage, but I can't help but feel that you put this equation together wrong.

[Deleted]

It's this part that bothers me. I don't see any reason why this would come out to be lower than the 2h version when the DW AA damage and TS damage are both higher. I think you messed up putting the variables together here somewhere, but again I'm not sure what half of these are or your reasoning for putting them in that order. I can see you're trying to get some kind of average multiplier for AA + TS damage, but I can't help but feel that you put this equation together wrong.

As I said in my earlier post, I assume that those 4 hits fro, TS are being split evenly between MH and OH. The part that you quoted is the version, in which AAs during the TS-proc are not affected by DW-penalty.

MH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 x 1.733) / 2.6 x 0.81 + 14.76 / 2) x 24950.1 = 551095

What I am doing is the following:

I am looking at a 1 minute timeframe. These 60 seconds are being split between "normal" AAs and TS-buffed AAs. Those buffed AAs gain the 50% Attackspeed. 14.76 total AAs are buffed. Those 14.76 are being split in half to get the AAs for MH and OH

14.76 / 2 = 7.38 buffed AAs for MH
7.38 x 1.733 = 12.79 seconds used for those AAs
60 - 12.79 = 47.21 seconds left to fill with normal AAs
47.21 / 2.6 = 18.158 "normal" AAs
18.158 x 0,81 = 14.71 "normal" AAs after factoring in the 19% DW-penalty for those
14.71 "normal" + 7.38 "buffed" AAs (that don't suffer from DW-penalty) = 22.09 AAs in total
22.09 x 24950.1 = those 551k damage oh the mainhand

OH calc is the same with half the damage. This is about Autoattacks. Even if the TS-buffed AAs are not affected by DW-penalty, the remaining AAs are.

To be more clear, let's forget about Tiger Strikes.

DW
MH 60 sec / 2.6 speed x 24950.1 damage x 0.81 hitchance + OH 60 sec / 2.6 speed x 12475.05 damage x 0.81 hitchance = 699562

2H
60 sec / 2.57 speed x 33271 damage = 776754

Or let's take the pure weapon DPS

MH 6854 + OH 6854/2 = 10281 x 0.81 = 8327.6

2H 9242

776754 / 699562 = 1.11
9242 / 8327.6 = 1.11

Pure whitehit damage of DW is lower than 2H just because of the 19% DW-penalty. The difference just gets lower to 859743 / 826642 = 1.04 in the case that TS removes the DW-penalty from some of our AAs.


EDIT: forgot to reply to Saltycracker

I've always equated a Tiger Strikes proc as just an attack that does 6x your average weapon damage when it is most effective (i.e. not refreshing):

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index...post&p=2168486

4 bonus attacks, plus 2 hasted attacks under the duration.

You just have double the chance to proc it while Dual Wielding.

How do you get to TS being worth 6 additional attacks? TS are tied to Melee-Swings. The buffs procs from Melee-Swings and the additional hits also proc on the following 4 Melee-Swings. Those next 4 swings gain the 50% Attackspeed buff. But that doesn't mean that you are getting 2 additional attacks. 50% Attackspeed are in reality 33% more attacks = 4 x 0.333 = 1.333 additional swings.

To clarify how it works:

4 x 2.6 = 10.4 seconds
10.4 - (4 x 2.6 / 1.5) = 3.46667 seconds left
3.466667 / 2.6 = 1.333 normal additional swings

[jazzyy]

No, I've done the theorycrafting and mathed it out myself as well. My conclusions agree with yours - that there should be no difference in damage. However, using the exact same gear, strats, and fights, DW ends up inexplicably doing more damage. Hell, if anything, 2H should do more damage as it isn't crit capped on white swings and gives more max vengeance for those fights where you hit it. Yet all empirical evidence points toward DW doing more damage. I've tried to puzzle it out but I gave up. Maybe I'll finish this week's clear with a 2H just to compare /shrug.

Hm, kind of weird. Wouldn't using a 2H give you more Vengeance because you'd have slightly more health, therefore a higher vengeance cap as well?

[Totaltotemic]

Oh I see, I think I misunderstood the earlier part of your post because you didn't mention the DW penalty on the first AA calculation which made it come out to more "combined DPS" than 2h. It's interesting that DW DPS is only 11% more than 2h but the miss penalty is 19%, and then Tiger Strikes seems to make up the remaining difference. I have to say, you make a compelling argument for them being basically equal.

I'm going on an archeological fact finding mission deep into the very origins of the Monk class on the EJ forum thread for WW to see if I can maybe find where this all started and what the very first reasoning for DW > 2h was.

Edit: It appears this goes way, way back even to beta with both sims and target dummy tests showing DW with a ~3% lead and never changed no matter how many time people tested both on dummies and in sims but no one ever nailed down a reason as to why, but thanks to everyone in this thread I have a theory.

The 19% DW miss penalty does not and never has reduced AA DPS by 19%. If it did, 2h and DW would be exactly even.

What does the DW miss penalty actually do? It takes away 19% of non-crit non-glancing hits. This is what Envar had to say back on page 2:

Autoattack damage is WDPS + DPS from AP
DPS from attack power counts once for 2H obviously, and 1,5* for DW - DPS lost for missed attacks.
The more attack power DPS we have in relation to weapon DPS and the more of our auto attacks crit (lowering the percentual impact of missed hits on overall autoattack DPS), the more DW will pull ahead of 2H.
To explain the latter:
Assuming no crits 75% hits 25% glancings, overall damage is around 94% of theoretical DPS if yll attacks hit.
Losing 19% of Hits lowers that to 75%, basically giving DW a damage multiplier of around 0,8 (0,75/0,94) for missed attacks
With 50% crit we can add another 50% damage for 144% damage total, so effective damage multiplier gets lowered to (144-19)/144 = 0,87

Double dancing steel is just icing on the cake.

I wasn't reading this very carefully at the time but I'll try to re-explain it in better terms.

If every hit is 1 damage, every crit is 2, and every glance is 0.75.
With 0% crit and max hit, total damage = 93.75 (75% hits, 25% glancing)

The DW penalty would add another 19% miss (taking away normal hits only) bringing the total down to 74.75, or 79.7333% of the total, which is actually a 20.26666% loss rather than a 19% loss. This establishes that the 19% miss chance is not equal to a 19% DPS loss.

Base Agility for non-Agility specs grants a crit chance right around 5%. In this scenario, we have 5% crits, 70% hits, and 25% glancings.

With 5% crit and max hit, total damage = 98.75 (5% crit 70% hit 25% glancing)
Apply DW penalty = 79.75/98.75 = 80.759%, or a 19.24% damage loss.
We can see here that the 19% miss penalty is balanced around the base 5% crit, not any additional crit whatsoever. We can also see that more crit = smaller DPS loss from DW penalty. Let's go further:

Up at 43% Crit (40% effective vs bosses), we have 40% crits, 35% hit, and 25% glancing.

With 40% crit and max hit, total damage = 133.75
Apply DW penalty (-19) = 114.75/133.75 = 85.79%, or a 14.21% damage loss.
Uh oh, things are getting very skewed, that's not even close to a 19% damage loss anymore...

Up at 59% Crit (56% vs bosses, CRIT CAP), we have 56% crits, 19% hits, and 25% glancing

With 56% crit and max hit, total damage = 149.75
Apply DW penalty (19% miss, also 56% crit 0% hit 25% glancing) = 130.75/149.75 = 87.31%, or a 12.69% damage loss.


Now let's compare 87.31% damage (max crit) vs the "balanced" 79.73% damage (87.31/79.73) = 109.51%. This means that if all things are equal at 5% crit, at max crit DW AAs produce 9.51% more DPS. At ~16% of total damage, that comes to a 1.5% DPS difference, more if AAs are a larger portion of total damage.


TL;DR

Because the DW vs 2h balance is fundamentally broken by altering balance via hit chance instead of adding a flat modifier to damage done with DW, DW will always be better than 2h for every class and spec if nothing else interferes because the effect of the 19% miss chance diminishes as crit chance increases.

[Deleted]

You know, it's actually quite easy to prove that DW is superior. If you have a formal calculation software like Maple or Mathlab, you can just enter all the formulas, and demonstrate that DW wins. It was done during the MoP BETA. More than a year and a half ago ; it's time people knew it.

So when i read blue tweets like this :

Use "way of the monk"? Doable but possibly not worth the effort; WotM never properly balanced for WW, who all DW.
-
Another community misconception. Way of the Monk does balance DW vs 2H for Brewmaster and Windwalker, extremely closely.

I wonder whether Blizzard is using a calculator like this one to work out their Way of the Monk numbers :
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...vma2_bzwQqAmSw
Unless they consider that a >10% difference on autoattack damage is "extremely closely balanced".

[Totaltotemic]

You know, it's actually quite easy to prove that DW is superior. If you have a formal calculation software like Maple or Mathlab, you can just enter all the formulas, and demonstrate that DW wins. It was done during the MoP BETA. More than a year and a half ago ; it's time people knew it.

So when i read blue tweets like this :

I wonder whether Blizzard is using a calculator like this one to work out their Way of the Monk numbers :
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...vma2_bzwQqAmSw
Unless they consider that a >10% difference on autoattack damage is "extremely closely balanced".

Proving that it is is a lot different than knowing why. When people just sim things and say "whelp this is better" and stop there without figuring out why they're left in the dark about the design and can offer no meaningful feedback. I actually have a suitable response to that tweet instead of just a year long history of "DW is better" to parrot.

[Deleted]

@Totaltotemic
You are indeed right that crit shifts the situation in favor of DW. We can even calculate the break-even.

We know that the difference between 2H and DW autohit weapondps is ~11.24% without DW-penalty.

1.1124 * (2x (crit) + 0.24*0.75 (glancing) + (0.57 - x) * 1 (normal hit) + 0.19 * 0 (miss) = 1 * (2x (crit) + 0.24*0.75 (glancing) + (0.76 - x) * 1 (normal hit)
2.2248x + 0.200232 + 0.634068 - 1.1124x + 0 = 2x + 0.18 + 0.76 - x
1.1124x + 0.8343 = x + 0.94 |-x , -0.8343
0.1124x = 0.1057 | /0.11
x = 0.9404

At 0 AP the break-even between DW and 2H would be at 94.04% crit, well beyond the crit-cap of both. But adding AP does not favor DW. Due to the lower base damage of 2H the relative gain is bigger than for DW. Let's say our monk has 70k AP raidbuffed. 70k AP / 14 * 1.8 (AP-modifier for our AAs) = 9k DPS

DW = 10281 + 9000 = 19281
2H = 9242 + 9000 = 18242

19281 / 18242 = 1.057

1.057 * (2x (crit) + 0.24*0.75 (glancing) + (0.57 - x) * 1 (normal hit) + 0.19 * 0 (miss) = 1 * (2x (crit) + 0.24*0.75 (glancing) + (0.76 - x) * 1 (normal hit)
2.114x + 0.19026 + 0.60249 - 1.057x + 0 = 2x + 0.18 + 0.76 - x
1.057x + 0.79275 = x + 0.94 |-x , -0.79275
0.057x = 0.14725 | /0.057
x = 2.5833

High AP values should heavily favor 2H. But take above math with a grain of salt as I need to check it again. I'll try to get my thoughts straight and continue tomorrow. Maybe someone can go on from here.

[Deleted]

Proving that it is is a lot different than knowing why.

No, it isn't. The dps difference is completely independent of gameplay or any factor other than gear and raid buffs. Math is the best and only way to differentiate DW and 2H, since the calculation of average autoattack dps is accurate and corresponds precisely to the real dps. If you prove that one formula is greater than another, you know why.

[Totaltotemic]

What I mean is if you take your original equation

MH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 x 1.733) / 2.6 x 0.81 + 14.76 / 2) x 24950.1 = 551095
OH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 x 1.733) / 2.6 x 0.81 + 14.76 / 2) x 12475.05 = 275547

And replace the 0.81 with a realistic 0.8731

MH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 * 1.733) / 2.6 * 0.8731 + 14.76 / 2) * 24950.1 = 579682
OH = ((60 – 14.76 / 2 * 1.733) / 2.6 * 0.8731 + 14.76 / 2) * 12475.05 = 289840

Total DW = 869522

Compared to total 2h = 859743

Fixing the combined amount:
Scenario 2 = 305838 + 869522 = 1175360
2h total = 1134827

Or a 3.57% difference, oddly very close to what testers said for several months on EJ. I'm not really sure how your crit break-even point is supposed to relate to that, but there it is.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it isn't. The dps difference is completely independent of gameplay or any factor other than gear and raid buffs. Math is the best and only way to differentiate DW and 2H, since the calculation of average autoattack dps is accurate and corresponds precisely to the real dps. If you prove that one formula is greater than another, you know why.

No you don't, you know that the solution is greater, not which variable(s) cause it to be so, especially when the formulas are as different as 2h and DW calculations are with all of these special rules all over the place.

[Deleted]

No you don't, you know that the solution is greater, not which variable(s) cause it to be so

I had never met someone who shut his eyes when solving equations.

with all of these special rules all over the place

There's no special rule intervening in the comparison between DW and 2H. Monk autoattacks have no influence over anything, and nothing has an influence over the dps difference of DW and 2H autoattacks. You juste need weapon dps, agility, crit, haste, attack speed buff, attack power buff, hit, and expertise as variables in the autoattacks damage (and physical damage modifications like armor or physical vulnerability, which are just multipliers at the end of the formula). And you don't even need haste and attack speed if you only want to compare DW and 2H autoattacks.

[zurm]

Since I'm an orc, using a 2H was never really an option I seriously considered anyway, unless desperate. Sure, I'd use a HWF staff off immersius over my NWF and normal axes from paragons, but given the same tier level I will always chose axes/fists where possible.

[Saltycracker]

How do you get to TS being worth 6 additional attacks? TS are tied to Melee-Swings. The buffs procs from Melee-Swings and the additional hits also proc on the following 4 Melee-Swings. Those next 4 swings gain the 50% Attackspeed buff. But that doesn't mean that you are getting 2 additional attacks. 50% Attackspeed are in reality 33% more attacks = 4 x 0.333 = 1.333 additional swings.

To clarify how it works:

4 x 2.6 = 10.4 seconds
10.4 - (4 x 2.6 / 1.5) = 3.46667 seconds left
3.466667 / 2.6 = 1.333 normal additional swings

Yep you are right, I'm just bad at haste math. Thanks for polishing that for me. Each TS proc is worth about 5.333 autoattacks. DW monks basically get approximately 1.81x (2-19% OH miss) the chance to proc TS, and get the benefit of double enchants.

Though it might be worth verifying that OH misses can proc TS:

[20:17:45.430] Rotund gains Tiger Strikes from Rotund
[20:17:45.430] Rotund hits Garrosh Hellscream Miss

If that's the case, DW just gets double the TS procs than 2H gets flat out.

And OH misses can still hit with TS:

[20:17:31.344] Rotund hits Garrosh Hellscream Miss
[20:17:31.500] Rotund Jab Garrosh Hellscream 48688
[20:17:31.500] Rotund Tiger Strikes Garrosh Hellscream 83633

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/d0l3n.../?s=992&e=1356