Lore and SWTOR: are force users too weak in the game?

[May90]

OK, first of all, I'm not talking about classes from the balance point of view. I'm talking solely about the story mode and how well it correlates with the Star Wars lore shown in movies, in books and in previous Star Wars games.

Does anyone else get the impression that force wielders (Jedi and Sith) are too weak in SWTOR? In movies, Jedi Knight series, KotoR series force users were just ages beyond anything a common soldier could ever dream of, and it would take many very skilled soldiers to take down a full-grown Jedi or Sith, and it was almost impossible for common people to take down an experienced Sith Lord or Jedi Master, no matter how many of them group together. Looks like Jango Fett was the best in non-force vs force fights since he fought pretty well with Obi-Wan - but then, Jango Fett was the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, and still he didn't manage to take down the Jedi, and Obi-Wan was far from one of the best Jedi.

In SWTOR, playing as Trooper, however, I killed so many Sith with lightsabers that I lost count of them a long time ago. I didn't just kill some green apprentices who were only starting to learn the force. I took down a few Sith lords without much problem, and on Voss I once took down (with assistance of my non-Jedi companion-healer) 5 Sith simultaneously: 2 masters, 1 warrior and 2 apprentices. Something tells me that a soldier with a blaster rifle, even if the best special op in the Republic, shouldn't have any chances against 5 Sith with lightsabers and force. More annoyingly, these fights didn't feel like fights against force users at all, more like against usual soldiers with some vibroblades: they didn't force push on me, didn't force pull my weapon, didn't force choke me, didn't even block my shots - they just stood around me and sliced me with their red sticks.

Is it just me, or have force users in SWTOR been made into common guys with blades?

[Itisamuh]

I think you're looking for immersion where it can't (and shouldn't) apply. There'd be no reason to have anyone other than force users in war if they were that invincible. Don't forget, the Jedi in the movies were hunted down by clone troopers. It's true that one against one there's small chance of the force user losing (and by the way, Obi-Wan was most certainly one of the most gifted Jedi, and he struggled with Fett) but the mobs in the game are in packs for gameplay purposes. If you're looking for realism, they wouldn't all be standing around like that anyway.

[Valeron]

probably but even though you mention in your first sentence that you aren't talking about balance, that is exactly the reason why they feel common. There are certain things that have to be conceded for a game to be an mmo, and what you talked about is one of them.

[ThePants999]

Of course. Totally, and obviously, correct. But even if we ignore class balance and just talk about NPCs, it would be extremely difficult to create a compelling solo experience for non-force users if the power of the force-using NPCs you faced was accurately represented. You'd have to be constantly supported by allied force users, and that just doesn't fit with the hero they want you to feel like.

Personally, while it did niggle at me, I think on balance that I was glad to see that aspect of lore sacrificed on the altar of good gameplay!

[Fencers]

The scale and power of Sith and Jedi is incredibly inconsistent throughout all of Star Wars.

You can read about like, Exal Kressh who was so powerful her Force Lightning could cause the lightsabers of other Sith to explode. She was the apprentice of the Emperor who lived for THOUSANDS of years and consumed the life force of all remaining Sith and an entire planet simultaneously. Kressh was like the perfect Sith, trained by arguably the most powerful Sith ever.

Now she was killed by Thanaton. Who fought massive gargantuan in the sky. Kressh and Kel dueled to brink of death a few times.

Sith Inquisitor story line has the player killing Thanathon in the most mediocre way possible. This guy who has dueled some of the most powerful Sith ever, who has defeated Sith so powerful Kressh could fight an entire legion of Sith in saber combat. Yet you get your ass handed to you by a level 55 Droid for a daily quest?

Its not just inconsistent in the game either. The Star Wars books are all contradictory. Jango Fett supposedly killed Jedi with his bare hands. Supposedly was one of the greatest Mandalore of all time. Defeated by Obi-Wan, who was and is considered to be one the most powerful Jedi, but of course Ben Kenobi gets trounced by R2-D2 driods on occasion.

Or the inconsistency in like Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Talon, Darth Vader [young & old], Luke Skywalker, Han Solo's son, Starkiller, etc.

It's just pulp fiction is all.

[Shiny212]

Of course, gameplay kinda requires them to be.

[WarpedAcorn]

Force users do seem weak, and I think it basically has to do with non-force users using an unlimited ammo cheat code. Seriously, a Bounty Hunter would be super weak if he had a limited supply of fuel, rockets, grenades, blaster clips, ect...

The other issue is the neutering of the lightsaber. Its basically as strong as the lightsabers the police use in Futurama. =)

[May90]

There'd be no reason to have anyone other than force users in war if they were that invincible.

Well, there are thousands times less force users than others, and, I guess, thousand troopers against even a very powerful Sith lord is not much of a fight. Jedi and Sith are very important parts of the war, but they are too low in numbers and couldn't fight for the fate of the galaxy without thousand times more supporting forces.

probably but even though you mention in your first sentence that you aren't talking about balance, that is exactly the reason why they feel common. There are certain things that have to be conceded for a game to be an mmo, and what you talked about is one of them.

Yes, I agree, for the PvP purposes they kind of have to be similar in force. But it shouldn't be like that in PvE. They could, for example, take a KotOR's approach where non-Jedi was much weaker, but not completely useless. In Flashpoints, for example, you would have to have 2 force users and 2 non-force classes in the group, so that would make them just as important and, probably, harder to play.
Anyway, no matter how strong the classes are, there was no need to incorporate into Trooper story a few battles with Sith lords.

Of course. Totally, and obviously, correct. But even if we ignore class balance and just talk about NPCs, it would be extremely difficult to create a compelling solo experience for non-force users if the power of the force-using NPCs you faced was accurately represented. You'd have to be constantly supported by allied force users, and that just doesn't fit with the hero they want you to feel like.

Again, they could just remove any encounters with Sith from the Trooper's story. Or, at least, make them very rare and memorable. Not like that quest on Coruscant, I think, where there is a meter: "Sith masters killed 3/10".

The scale and power of Sith and Jedi is incredibly inconsistent throughout all of Star Wars...

Yes, I noticed that too. In KotoR 2, for example, Atton tells us that he hunted Jedi during the Mandalorian wars and killed many of them - but then he gets nearly killed by 2 sexy Twi'lek assassins in the bar. Or, well, Darth Nihilus in KotoR 2 who turned entire planets to bare lands just by his presence and gets killed by a former apprentice and an exiled Jedi stripped of her powers recently.

I don't know. I play mainly for the story and lore, and such things hurt me.

[Fencers]

I think you're looking for immersion where it can't (and shouldn't) apply. There'd be no reason to have anyone other than force users in war if they were that invincible.

There is reason for the troops in that the Sith and Jedi are still relatively few in number compared to the thousands of controlled worlds, billions on people/species and millions of star systems.

The Empire and Republic use their troops to do the "grunt" work the Sith and Jedi can't do practically speaking. Everything from occupation of a world to constricting bases. Again, spread through the entire galaxy [which is another inconsistency in SW, the scale of the galaxy].

But in truth, it really comes down to the philosophic battle of wills that are the Sith/Jedi. They are sorta the ones that actually "matter" in the conflict. During the Old Republic time and up to till the Galactic Civil War that was how the wars were ultimately decided and fought. The troops were just there to, um, support the Jedi and Sith with like... logistics.

In fact, the casualness of run-of-the-mill soldiers and worlds getting caught up in the Jedi/Sith conflict is what drove a lot of anti-Force user sentiment among the Sith and Jedi armies. "Those 'Pubs don't care about us!" / "Those Sith would use us as cannon fodder!"

Which is sorta true in both contexts. Even for the Jedi, protectors usually, as there was just no way for the Jedi to conduct war with the Sith sans troops. So there was a bit of hypocrisy in The Republic least they could not defend or hold their worlds.

The Sith gave no shit or made allusions. The troopers were their cannon fodder. Sith, Sith Empire, is pure unbridled Evil.

[damntree]

(and by the way, Obi-Wan was most certainly one of the most gifted Jedi, and he struggled with Fett)

He really isn't that great with a lightsaber. Even then I wouldn't say he struggled with Jango; more like Jango, Boba, and a spaceship. Jango was definitely losing that fight.

[Lovestar]

IMO, SWTOR definitely feeds you too many cannon-fodder Jedi/Sith. By the end of any campaign you've pretty much lost all fear of Force users.

This is more of an issue with the combat engine, though. Because it's very stand-and-shoot static MMO stuff, it's difficult to get a different feeling between Force users and blaster users.

What makes a Jedi/Sith actually 'dangerous' / 'powerful' is that they're supernatural; they can do things normal people can't, which makes fighting them confusing and scary. That doesn't translate in SWTOR's solo mode, where you're just standing there patiently whacking each other with autoattacks.

There's no reason a Trooper can't kill a Jedi or Sith, but it should be difficult because normal tactics like pointing, aiming, and shooting don't work the same way when your opponent isn't operating under the same laws of physics that you are. SWTOR fails to translate that with its very gentle, slow-paced combat system, and I think that's why Jedi/Sith feel so undifferentiated from normal soldiers in combat terms.

If enemy J/S were actually paralyzing you with lightning, ripping your gun out of your hands, smashing you with wall panels, and backflipping over your head to slash you from behind non-stop while you desperately roll for cover and try to land a single shot, then you'd probably feel more of a rush about killing one. =)

As far as Lightsaber vs. Blaster, either one should kill you if it hits you, so I don't see this as the real problem. While using Lightsabers as baseball bats is definitely weird, it's also weird that you can unload an entire blaster clip into someone at point-blank range and they lose like 5% health. This is just RPG combat at its illogical finest. :p

Plotwise they do try to make a point of experienced Force users being terrifying demigods, though. =) Darth Tormen in the BH plot is just... wow. Gave me the chills.

[Fencers]

Obi-Wan is one of the greatest Jedi. He wasn't "so-so" or average at all. Kenobi was one of their greatest by service record alone. Not to mention the opponents he defeated that eclipsed lesser Jedi many times over pre and post Clone Wars. Save Windu and Yoda, Obi-Wan is above many Jedi Knights of his time in skill and ability.

It is specifically stated Kenobi was one of the greatest swordsman of Jedi Order in various publications. Which given the general inconsistency of SW lore, is oddly consistent.

One of the encyclopedias [iirc] names Kenobi the equal of Darth Tyranus [as a Jedi Dooku was a master duelist under Yoda] and Raskta Lsu [Considered the finest Weapon Master of the Old Jedi order serving under Gen. Hoth, after SWTOR's events]. Though Windu surpassed Kenobi in that era in terms of saber skill.

That Jango held his own in a duel to the death with Kenobi is remarkable. Jango was a highly skilled Mandalorian.

[May90]

There is reason for the troops in that the Sith and Jedi are still relatively few in number compared to the thousands of controlled worlds, billions on people/species and millions of star systems.

The Empire and Republic use their troops to do the "grunt" work the Sith and Jedi can't do practically speaking. Everything from occupation of a world to constricting bases. Again, spread through the entire galaxy [which is another inconsistency in SW, the scale of the galaxy].

But in truth, it really comes down to the philosophic battle of wills that are the Sith/Jedi. They are sorta the ones that actually "matter" in the conflict. During the Old Republic time and up to till the Galactic Civil War that was how the wars were ultimately decided and fought. The troops were just there to, um, support the Jedi and Sith with like... logistics.

I would say that Sith and Jedi are the leading forces, the "rulers" in the war. Jedi lead the Republican army and Sith lead their army into battle. It's like dictators in the real world. Hitler alone couldn't even stab a dog, probably, but, having built a strong chain of command, he ravaged through the whole Europe and almost took down gigantic Russia. Same here. Sith Emperor alone couldn't do a damn to a single city. Sith Emperor with ten thousand Sith force users can pose a threat to a decently developed planet. And Sith Emperor with ten thousand Sith and with ten million troopers threaten the whole Galaxy. Sith chain of command is kept by a brute force and by dominating the people below you and trembling before people above you. Jedi chain of command is more liberal, built upon the mutual acceptance, with Jedi leading the troops due to their (assumed) wisdom and power. In the end, Jedi alone and Sith alone couldn't do much on the galactic scale. They need 1000 times more people to do the work as they command and intervene in the most important cases.

What makes a Jedi/Sith actually 'dangerous' / 'powerful' is that they're supernatural; they can do things normal people can't, which makes fighting them confusing and scary. That doesn't translate in SWTOR's solo mode, where you're just standing there patiently whacking each other with autoattacks.

There's no reason a Trooper can't kill a Jedi or Sith, but it should be difficult because normal tactics like pointing, aiming, and shooting don't work the same way when your opponent isn't operating under the same laws of physics that you are. SWTOR fails to translate that with its very gentle, slow-paced combat system, and I think that's why Jedi/Sith feel so undifferentiated from normal soldiers in combat terms.

If enemy J/S were actually paralyzing you with lightning, ripping your gun out of your hands, smashing you with wall panels, and backflipping over your head to slash you from behind non-stop while you desperately roll for cover and try to land a single shot, then you'd probably feel more of a rush about killing one. =)

Agree. A good example of how it should have been in reality is a fight in Jedi Knight 2 against Desann before Katarn has become a Jedi. Desann simply laughs at the player. You shoot at him endlessly, he parries everything with no sweat, then he pulls you close, calls down some lightning on you, then throws you away and continues taunting. It is a very humiliating fight, especially if you seriously try to do some damage. In the end, of course, you lose the fight, as it should be.

In SWTOR both guys just stand in front of each other and shoot/slice each other like some kind of drunken brawlers.

As far as Lightsaber vs. Blaster, either one should kill you if it hits you, so I don't see this as the real problem. While using Lightsabers as baseball bats is definitely weird, it's also weird that you can unload an entire blaster clip into someone at point-blank range and they lose like 5% health. This is just RPG combat at its illogical finest. :p

I guess, Blaster shouldn't kill a normal person by 1 hit. Remember Leia getting shot in the end of the Episode VI and recovering just a few seconds later? I guess, it is explained the same way as in Mass Effect: on their level of technology, they surely have some dynamic shields absorbing a part of damage. So a well equipped soldier should be able to sustain a few blaster hits.

Lightsaber, on the other hand... Nothing will save you from a laser cutting off your head.

[Fencers]

I would say that Sith and Jedi are the leading forces, the "rulers" in the war. <snip>

That is only true for the Sith. Not the Jedi.

Jedi and Republic forces are parallel, not the same. Sith forces and the Sith are the same.

The Jedi field their own army, alongside and independent of, The Republic. Such as the Jedi Army of Light.

Also, no. The Sith Emperor and ten thousand Sith could and do pose a threat on a galactic level. Especially in the case of Sith such as Dread Master and what not. The Dark Side force usage is extremely disruptive to life/peace. Even just two Sith [Darth Bane/Zannah, Darth Plagueis/Sidious] are a huge threat potentially able to effect beings from millions of light years away in some cases- Plagueis, Bane, Revan, Vader, The Son, Millennium, Lumiya, etc.

The Sith just can't like, maintain anything they win. It's part of their "flaw" as a philosophy within the lore. That and the nature of Dark Side being tyrannical. As soon as one Sith becomes powerful enough, lesser Sith overrun him. A power vacuum forms, those Sith fight each other. Sith are cannibalized. One Sith rises again among the survivors, the cycle repeats.

When Palpatine becomes the One Sith he tries to break Bane's rule of two. It fails. Yet the Sith fragment again, the cycle repeats.

[jaakkeli]

Does anyone else get the impression that force wielders (Jedi and Sith) are too weak in SWTOR?

No, not really. The same argument that you have with Jango Fett also applies to the Jedi: in the movies we only saw some of the most powerful force users of all time so the gap to "normals" seems unnecessarily large.

Looks like Jango Fett was the best in non-force vs force fights since he fought pretty well with Obi-Wan - but then, Jango Fett was the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, and still he didn't manage to take down the Jedi, and Obi-Wan was far from one of the best Jedi.

How many Jedi Masters actually exist? A few dozen? Coruscant alone is supposed to have a population of over a trillion people, the Galactic Republic is supposed to have billions of billions of people. Even if Obi Wan is only the 11th most powerful Jedi in the Republic or whatever that still makes him a ridiculously exceptional talent. The guy who's best at something on Earth is the best 1 out of 6 billion and the best 1 out of 6 billion force user probably doesn't even make it to Jedi training or there would be a billion Jedi around.

Obi Wan only looks "far from the best Jedi" because he's seen with Palpatine, Yoda and the Skywalkers who *are* some of the best Jedi/Sith of all time. But to say that he isn't an exceptionally powerful Jedi is like saying the guy who finishes 9th place in the Olympics isn't fast because he'll never beat Usain Bolt.

Is it just me, or have force users in SWTOR been made into common guys with blades?

The game is very inconsistent on this. One of the things that bugged me a lot while playing the Bounty Hunter, Scoundrel and Agent storylines is how I expected to get some lightsaber using companion and I never did. Clearly, someone in charge of the stories declared that force users are too special to serve non-force-users but then this makes no sense since in the stories we see plenty of Sith apprentices assigned to "serve" influental normals as "bodyguards" and there's a big deal made about the philosophy of Jedi serving the Republic instead of the other way around.

It would have made perfect sense for some Sith lord who wants to watch my agent closely to assign an apprentice to "serve" me and the dialogue would have made great exploration of force user/non force user relations. And it would have made perfect sense to have him around for the parts of the story when you fight force users. But they bailed.

[May90]

That is only true for the Sith. Not the Jedi.

Jedi and Republic forces are parallel, not the same. Sith forces and the Sith are the same.

The Jedi field their own army, alongside and independent of, The Republic. Such as the Jedi Army of Light.

What I meant is, during a battle, what Jedi says goes. If there are 100 troops and their commander, and a Jedi nearby, the commander will probably follow the Jedi's advise in the battle, even though formally they are separate forces. It is just more clear for Sith: Sith give the direct orders to their troops and just kill them if they don't obey, while Jedi give advise that is listened to due to their reputation.

Even just two Sith [Darth Bane/Zannah, Darth Plagueis/Sidious] are a huge threat potentially able to effect beings from millions of light years away in some cases- Plagueis, Bane, Revan, Vader, The Son, Millennium, Lumiya, etc.

Yeah. And the only reason, say, Revan managed to nearly conquer the Republic is that he had a zillion of troops and spaceships helping him. Should he have tried to charge alone into Coruscant, he wouldn't have lasted long.

How many Jedi Masters actually exist? A few dozen? Coruscant alone is supposed to have a population of over a trillion people, the Galactic Republic is supposed to have billions of billions of people. Even if Obi Wan is only the 11th most powerful Jedi in the Republic or whatever that still makes him a ridiculously exceptional talent. The guy who's best at something on Earth is the best 1 out of 6 billion and the best 1 out of 6 billion force user probably doesn't even make it to Jedi training or there would be a billion Jedi around.

Among common people, he was certainly incredibly strong. Among Jedi, not so much. Just compare him to Yoda: he isn't even close.

[WarpedAcorn]

Obi-Wan is one of the greatest Jedi. He wasn't "so-so" or average at all. Kenobi was one of their greatest by service record alone. Not to mention the opponents he defeated that eclipsed lesser Jedi many times over pre and post Clone Wars. Save Windu and Yoda, Obi-Wan is above many Jedi Knights of his time in skill and ability.

It is specifically stated Kenobi was one of the greatest swordsman of Jedi Order in various publications. Which given the general inconsistency of SW lore, is oddly consistent.

One of the encyclopedias [iirc] names Kenobi the equal of Darth Tyranus [as a Jedi Dooku was a master duelist under Yoda] and Raskta Lsu [Considered the finest Weapon Master of the Old Jedi order serving under Gen. Hoth, after SWTOR's events]. Though Windu surpassed Kenobi in that era in terms of saber skill.

That Jango held his own in a duel to the death with Kenobi is remarkable. Jango was a highly skilled Mandalorian.

Kenobi's greatness stems mainly from his ingenuity. With a lightsaber, I believe he was considered to be the greatest Soresu master of his era and was also a master of the Ataru style. As far as mastery of the Force, I don't believe he's ever been depicted doing anything crazy so I would rate him as Above-Average. However, his brilliance comes from his tactical mindedness and his ability to improvise tactics and use what he has to his advantage. Another of his remarkable traits is his resilience and durability.

Ultimately, I think this is a reason why Obi-Wan is such a favorite in the Star Wars universe. In a way he is the opposite of Anakin. He doesn't have a vast array of or limitless Force power. By all accounts he is an average Jedi in terms of ability (capable of basic Force Pushes, Beast Control, Mind Tricks, Physical Augmentation, ect...). However, he rises above the average by taking the deck he was dealt and making the most of it. Of course he does throw a curve ball in the end and gains the ability to transcend the physical plane and become a Force Ghost, but that also came at the cost of the degregation of most all of his abilities as that was his focus.

So I guess I kinda agree with you and disagree too. I don't think his actual Force Abilities place him in a super high tier, I think its his ability to use his powers in creative ways and think extremely tactically that push him farther than his abilities should have allowed. And this mindset does make sense for him. As a Padawan he watched his master get cut down solely due to his brash fighting style and nature. As talented as Qui-Gonn was (one of, if not the best Ataru masters), his downfall was that he never planned his attacks, he let himself be guided by the Living Force. After seeing the aftermath of that, it makes a lot of sense why Obi-Wan turned his focus to Soresu and to specifically using everything (Force powers, terrain, environment, ect...) to his advantage.

[Fencers]

What I meant is, during a battle, what Jedi says goes. If there are 100 troops and their commander, and a Jedi nearby, the commander will probably follow the Jedi's advise in the battle, even though formally they are separate forces. It is just more clear for Sith: Sith give the direct orders to their troops and just kill them if they don't obey, while Jedi give advise that is listened to due to their reputation.

Again, that is true of the Sith and Sith forces. Not of the Jedi and Republic forces.

It is not necessarily the case that the Jedi present are or have command over Republic troops in any given combat scenario. Many Jedi were commanders and even generals within the Republic army. But it is not the case that Jedi by defacto were commanding officers within the Republic military.

Some 'Pub battalions and armies didn't enjoy Jedi accompaniment. Some Republic officers did not allow Jedi attaches within their company, squad, unit or battalion.

Where as whether or not a Sith knows anything from a tactical or strategic standpoint, the Sith forces were obligated to follow that Sith's commands. Unless a more powerful Sith outranked that Sith giving the orders.

Jedi were not inherently, um, dicks. So yes you are right in the sense that a 'Pub officer without an axe to grind toward the Jedi would likely let a Jedi handle the supernatural stuff. Because, well, Sith and Jedi are super villains/heroes. Respectively.

Kenobi's greatness stems mainly from his ingenuity. With a lightsaber, I believe he was considered to be the greatest Soresu master of his era and was also a master of the Ataru style. As far as mastery of the Force, I don't believe he's ever been depicted doing anything crazy so I would rate him as Above-Average.

Kenobi's force ability is extraordinary high though. Not only did he master many techniques from all 3 forms of force application; alteration, senses and control. But it is specifically stated and shown that Kenobi had enough innate mastery and force ability to withstand the direct force powers of what were two of the most powerful force entities in history; The Son and Anakin.

Vader doesn't overpower Kenobi. Kenobi equals Vader's force extension at the height of Vader's power, which at that point in time exceeds that ever displayed among the Jedi and Sith.

That is more than average or above average. That places Kenobi as one of the most powerful Jedi ever known. In saber and force usage.

Kenobi is just unassuming. He remains so throughout all of SW. He's just like, an uncle. But he's a flippin' master Jedi of the ages in SW lore.

[delus]

No, not really. The same argument that you have with Jango Fett also applies to the Jedi: in the movies we only saw some of the most powerful force users of all time so the gap to "normals" seems unnecessarily large.



How many Jedi Masters actually exist? A few dozen? Coruscant alone is supposed to have a population of over a trillion people, the Galactic Republic is supposed to have billions of billions of people. Even if Obi Wan is only the 11th most powerful Jedi in the Republic or whatever that still makes him a ridiculously exceptional talent. The guy who's best at something on Earth is the best 1 out of 6 billion and the best 1 out of 6 billion force user probably doesn't even make it to Jedi training or there would be a billion Jedi around.

Obi Wan only looks "far from the best Jedi" because he's seen with Palpatine, Yoda and the Skywalkers who *are* some of the best Jedi/Sith of all time. But to say that he isn't an exceptionally powerful Jedi is like saying the guy who finishes 9th place in the Olympics isn't fast because he'll never beat Usain Bolt.



The game is very inconsistent on this. One of the things that bugged me a lot while playing the Bounty Hunter, Scoundrel and Agent storylines is how I expected to get some lightsaber using companion and I never did. Clearly, someone in charge of the stories declared that force users are too special to serve non-force-users but then this makes no sense since in the stories we see plenty of Sith apprentices assigned to "serve" influental normals as "bodyguards" and there's a big deal made about the philosophy of Jedi serving the Republic instead of the other way around.

It would have made perfect sense for some Sith lord who wants to watch my agent closely to assign an apprentice to "serve" me and the dialogue would have made great exploration of force user/non force user relations. And it would have made perfect sense to have him around for the parts of the story when you fight force users. But they bailed.

One of the things that I feel the game didn't handle well. I wish the would have made playable characters and classes ALL low level force sensitives to explain how say a smuggler or imperial agent could be on par with a Jedi or Sith. Maybe that could explain why they are more powerful than the average footsoldier and why they are somewhat resistant to force powers themselves. After all, force sensitivity is not a rare phenomenon in the star wars universe.

[WarpedAcorn]

Kenobi's force ability is extraordinary high though. Not only did he master many techniques from all 3 forms of force application; alteration, senses and control. But it is specifically stated and shown that Kenobi had enough innate mastery and force ability to withstand the direct force powers of what were two of the most powerful force entities in history; The Son and Anakin.

Vader doesn't overpower Kenobi. Kenobi equals Vader's force extension at the height of Vader's power, which at that point in time exceeds that ever displayed among the Jedi and Sith.

That is more than average or above average. That places Kenobi as one of the most powerful Jedi ever known. In saber and force usage.

Kenobi is just unassuming. He remains so throughout all of SW. He's just like, an uncle. But he's a flippin' master Jedi of the ages in SW lore.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree that Kenobi equal's Vader at the height of Vader's power. Anakin, while one of the most powerful Force users of the time, was largely untrained untapped when they fought on Mustafar. He was the equivalent of the guy that has amazing natural talent, but never practices. He's naturally good, but if he focused he would be even more amazing. After his defeat, Anakin/Vader had but a fraction of his natural Force ability left. He had essentially been neutered. However, its in this state that Anakin/Vader shows how good he could have been because he works to retool and adapt to his new limited abilities. And by doing so he imitates Obi-Wan by getting really good and really creative with relatively basic Force powers. He no longer had the crutch of natural ability to hold himself up, he had to actually work. This is where Anakin/Vader really peaked.

When Obi-Wan and Vader meet up again on the Death Star, both are old and well past their prime and well past their respective heights of power. It was a battle of dinosaurs. Vader had the advantage due to his cybernetics, and Obi-Wan was carrying a lifetime of war wounds. Obi-Wan knew the best he could hope for was to be a distraction and delaying tactic to keep Vader away from Luke. Again, this is Obi-Wan taking the factors on the battlefield and using them to his advantage.

I guess I may have misspoke about Obi-Wan in terms of Force ability. He was, afterall, a member of the Jedi Council. So saying he was Above-Average is maybe selling him a little short. But comparing him to any of the Skywalkers or Sith Lords, you have to admit that his actual abilities are nothing astounding. I think the most impressive thing he has been shown doing was employing Tutamenis (sp?) in the Star Wars Clone Wars cartoon. But I can't recall him using this again (which again brings up the inconsistency we have mentioned before in this thread).

But Obi-Wan is definitely one of, if not the most popular, Jedi in the fandom. And for whatever reason, I think its certainly justified.