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  1. #1

    WoW is soooo "developer" driven and not player driven. Reason cause its losing subs!

    Its hurting the game and probably one of the main reason Blizzard can neve fix WPVP and people are getting burnt out and bored quicker than ever.

    WoW is what you call a "themepark" MMO. Theme park MMOs are designed to set players on a set of rails, guiding them through the content of a game. The development team works on creating a very elaborate story or setting to deeply enhance the experience a player has. Whether this is through scripted events, quests, or mini-cut scenes, all of these things and more.

    No matter how many times you ride the attractions, the details just never change. If you wait several years and go back, they are right there, waiting for you...just as you left them. While this could be fun the first few times, it gets boring quick and you could find yourself looking at other themeparks for new and more exciting rides.

    Its like every expansion we have our path layed out for us. Its a simulation. Nothing we do changes anything. Its already given that you will kill the bad guy of that expansion unless Blizzard plans on writting him for future expansions. There are no consequences. You wipe on the Lich King, you come back next week to kill him. Doesn't feel very real does it? With current design of MMOs focused on progression, raiding is very important and that is how every one these days seem to judge any current MMO. That is what Blizzard seems to be doing as well.

    WoW is so heavily driven by developers from the very start, new players begin with a set path to follow. The developer controls the experience, from the first time a player logs in with a new character and every time after, until that character achieves the level cap for that particular game. Developers restrict the attractions offered, often only allowing one ride at a time. In other words, once on there’s no turning back until the ride stops! Like you can see with capped Valor Points, gated reputations, daily lockouts and such.

    Then you have the "Sandbox" MMOs. Sandbox MMOs are nearly the complete opposite of this. Rather than choosing a predestined path for players to follow, this development style allows for the creation of an open world in which players are free to discover their own adventure at their own pace. This is what a traditional MMO was and a lot of folks are actually looking for but just can't put a finger on what they really are looking for.

    You look at the "old schoool" MMOs such as Ultima Online, the taple top dungeons and dragons which were so player driven, it kept players interest. Its like an artist. You give him a blank cavas and he paints a masterpiece. That is what MMOs were. They gave you this world and you lived and created your memories.

    Its amazing what some folks do in RPGs. Take Skyrim for example. I've read of players RP Hunters that don't only sleep out in the wild and eat only food that is hunted. Or Khajits that never enter a Hold during the day and only enter at night when everyone is at bed. These are small examples. Or even some that prefer to use these hardcores mods - Frostfall - which changes how the game is played. It hads a ton of realist mechanics to the game. This is for those looking to immerse themselves completely in the world. The game is "player driven". Players will keep coming back creating and living through new characters.

    People keep calling for Blizzard to save WPVP. The funny thing is that Blizzard didn't start WPVP. Folks look back at the good times at Tarren Mill or South Shore and the Horde and Alliance rivalry. Who created it? Its the players. The game was primarily driven by players early on. Sure Blizzard deserves credit for some amazing raids but its the players that actually kept you coming back. Alterac Valley for example. Blizzard has tried to hype up the Alliance vs Horde rivalry in Cataclysm and again is MoP but they keep failing at it. Its cause they never started it. The rivalry was player driven.


    Folks get burnt out quickly cause content is limited in a way. There are no incentives given for players to come up with their own content. So Blizzard piles us with more dailies thinking its the best way to give players something to do at 90. Again its all so linear.

    The reason Vanilla WoW actually is fondly remember is cause it still had a few "sandbox" elements. There was never a clear path. Not everyone was into raids. Raids were intended for the hardcore crowd. PVP was a grind. Folks got less burnt out. Sure those that raided got burnt out as well but that is the nature of raiding.

    I can never figure out why its so hard to actually have MMOs designed around a traditional RPG design. That is what a lot of players seem to be actually calling for but simply can't point a finger at. There are only so many times you can run the same dungeon over and over again before it becomes mind numbing.

    It’s inevitable that everything in life eventually becomes old or boring and as a result, it was only natural that players of theme park MMOs have begun to cry for something different. That’s the magic a sandbox MMO can give that a theme park game never will. It may take extra effort on the part of a player to create reasons to explore and push further for themselves, but trust me when I say it is well worth the effort. Times are changing and the sandbox is becoming a welcome site to gamers new and old alike.

  2. #2
    Themepark MMOs are like TV Series. The devs are the regisseurs and you are the actor.

  3. #3
    Finally, the one guy who solved every problem WoW has that Blizzard's many employees couldn't figure out

  4. #4
    So that is the reason there are plenty of Sandbox MMOs.
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    So that is the reason there are plenty of Sandbox MMOs.
    Well that is the next thing. The next frontier. Studios actually realise this. Its more economical to develop a Sandbox MMO and having a $100-$200 million "themepark" MMO budget and have to rely on new content every now to keep players interested.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome
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    for a crappy themepark on rails going over the same rides for 10 years, i'd say wow has done fairly.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord Lostwood's Avatar
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    Bravo! Well-written and spot on.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Emzky's Avatar
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    This is very true. Well written. WoW is indeed very linear.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Themepark MMOs are like TV Series. The devs are the regisseurs and you are the actor.
    Naw.. we're the pointless extras walking around in the back ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by greysaber View Post
    for a crappy themepark on rails going over the same rides for 10 years, i'd say wow has done fairly.
    Not well enough to warrant some of the praise it gets. It's a decent at what the developers mainly focus on, but isn't so hot beyond raiding imo.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2014-01-08 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #10
    How can any one write such a long ass text and base it on the completely fallacious premise that players burned out less when there was far less to do in the game? Such nonsense. Word count doesn't make your reasoning less absurd.

  11. #11
    OP, you may want to look into EverQuest Next. IF they can pull off the things they're aspiring to do, it could very well be the next step in MMO evolution. Essentially it all boils down to the development they're putting into new AI that helps keep us from looking so easily behind the curtain and seeing how A leads to B and a game designed where 20 different servers can wind up with 20 different versions of the physical world due to player action.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  12. #12
    Typical "Wow is the wrong game for you, play something else"-thread. You can have your opinion on something, but that's YOUR OPINION. So saying Wow should be different, is plain and simply wrong. Maybe for you it's true, but for many others it's not

  13. #13
    While I like Sandbox MMOs myself, you will never see one as popular as WoW.

    WoW has always been what it was intended to be, a Themepark MMO, this thread is pretty pointless. You've told most of us what we already know, bravo.

    Southshore vs Tarren Mill was boring and only happened because there was nothing else to do. If Southshore vs Tarren Mill is also your idea of fantastic sandbox, then I'm speechless.

    Ultima Online would be awful for the 'casual' gamer.

    This is a reason sandbox mmo's are never that popular outside the hardcore crowd.
    Last edited by Trix; 2014-01-08 at 02:51 PM.

  14. #14
    Well peoples are saying a lot of retarded things so you'd better not listen at them if you want a good game.
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  15. #15
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    Well that is the next thing. The next frontier. Studios actually realise this. Its more economical to develop a Sandbox MMO and having a $100-$200 million "themepark" MMO budget and have to rely on new content every now to keep players interested.
    Yeah but so far they fail to take off. We'll see what stuff like EQN will perform like, but so far, no sandbox game succeded in achieving even 1/10th of the performance of WoW.

    Also, what you're missing is that in today's world, people are not interested in sandbox MMOs (or any MMOs in fact, but that's another discussion). Sandbox MMOs mean lot of stuff to learn, choices (sometimes irreversible) to make and a lot of time to spent. Neither of those is even remotely appealing to most of today's VG players. What they want is quick, bite-sized content, which is provided mostly by MOBAs and shooters. Hence the success of something like LoL. Heck, even in a sandbox game like EvE online, guess what most people are doing (hint: it has something to do with bite-sized PVE)? I know, right?

    What you're also missing is that any sandbox MMO creates a powerful self-deterrent because of how griefing, ganking and other similar behavious are rampant - and powerful - there. This drives away quite a lot of new players. Those factors combined are the reason why a sandbox MMO cannot really take off. Yeah, it can form a nice small community, but breaching even 1M subs is a challenge most (if not all) simply do not overcome.

    By the way, you're delusional if you think that a sandbox MMO does not need new content. Even EVE Online developers - who have huge room for improvement - understand that and add new content. And then they get complaints about not adding enough of it, how ironic XDDD I won't even mention the fact that implementing a true 3D sandbox engine is no small feat, which eats a lot of resources.

    And finally, you absolutely cannot directly link WoW being a themepark and sub loss. Because in that case, you would have to show me successful multi-million sandbox MMOs not losing - and even gaining - subs. Guess what, there is no such thing.
    Last edited by Tomana; 2014-01-08 at 02:53 PM.

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  16. #16
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Sandbox MMOs are like blank pieces of paper. I'm not an expert on sandbox MMOs, but as I understand it it's pretty much about "making your own content". Isn't that basically just roleplaying?

  17. #17
    The reason that the game was so "sandbox" like back in Vanilla is because the mentality of the playerbase was different. It was new and exciting, similarly to how leveling in SWTOR was new and exciting for me the first time. Guess what - SWTOR ended up sucking the 2nd time through, and the 3rd, and the 4th. It isn't Blizzards fault that people don't want to do WPVP simply because the game wasn't designed for WPVP. It is based around Arena, RBGs, and Raids just like every other MMO in today's market. Just wait - ESO will come out and be just like WoW in terms of a "Theme Park MMO" because there is only so much Roleplaying Game that you can put in an MMORPG.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    And finally, you absolutely cannot directly link WoW being a themepark and sub loss. Because in that case, you would have to show me successful multi-million sandbox MMOs not losing - and even gaining - subs. Guess what, there is no such thing.
    Well, historically, Star Wars Galaxies was doing quite well for itself for its time in MMO history.......until they borked everything players liked and gutted players without notice, changing the character they'd been playing with no say in the matter.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by greysaber View Post
    for a crappy themepark on rails going over the same rides for 10 years, i'd say wow has done fairly.
    Quite frankly because of installed playerbase of old, not because of what it currently is.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well, historically, Star Wars Galaxies was doing quite well for itself for its time in MMO history.......until they borked everything players liked and gutted players without notice, changing the character they'd been playing with no say in the matter.
    The audience was not quite the same back then, though. Also, development costs were much lower, making games like that possible.
    Nowadays, even a sandbox MMO requires a metric crapton of art and code, making dev costs skyrocket.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

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