View Poll Results: 4 months out, how many players should've been able to defeat H Garrosh?

Voters
1621. You may not vote on this poll
  • <.25%

    522 32.20%
  • <2%

    545 33.62%
  • <5%

    266 16.41%
  • <10%

    135 8.33%
  • >10%

    153 9.44%
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  1. #1621
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    No way.

    People were bad, sure. The game was much easier. Just because by the time Wrath launched people had been playing for 4 years doesn't mean Halls of Lightning Heroic was so much easier than a clearing Stratholme or Dire Maul.
    The game used to be moderately difficult by default, though. Now it's easy by default, with extra challenges. The problem, for me at least, is that going out of my way for a challenge just feels redundant. Just to pick a random BC boss, say Gruul. I like raids having 1 difficulty because entering Gruuls lair felt like actually going to see THE Gruul, not LFR Gruul or flex Gruul or Heroic Gruul, THE Gruul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post


    Hence the analogy; you're convinced that your opinion is factual.
    Go quote me where I said it and I'll lay down the facts. Like I said I wouldn't say it unless I was sure.

  2. #1622
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    The game used to be moderately difficult by default, though. Now it's easy by default, with extra challenges. The problem, for me at least, is that going out of my way for a challenge just feels redundant. Just to pick a random BC boss, say Gruul. I like raids having 1 difficulty because entering Gruuls lair felt like actually going to see THE Gruul, not LFR Gruul or flex Gruul or Heroic Gruul, THE Gruul.

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    Go quote me where I said it and I'll lay down the facts. Like I said I wouldn't say it unless I was sure.
    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    As I've said in an LFR thread, I'll support the removal of LFR, if they also remove Heroic and Mythic (WoD) and go back to a one difficulty model with a decent group finder.

    (Some)Heroic raiders are just as "entitled" as the LFR crowd they love to hate "herp derp WoW is too ez, we want exclusive content, derp". Probably one of the reasons I don't miss raiding after being forced to quit, is because you had to defeat a boss on several levels before you actually "beat" them. Talk about burnout.

    Anyway, as it stands now, I feel it should be tuned for 5-10% of players (guilds) to be able to defeat Heroic content. Any less and I feel it's a waste of development resources.

  3. #1623
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Go quote me where I said it and I'll lay down the facts. Like I said I wouldn't say it unless I was sure.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post24838070

    The bit where you say that a few more mechanics and a 'challenge' isn't enough to keep people interested in raiding and yet.... lots of people are still clearing normal modes and heroic modes for that "few more mechanics and 'challenge'...

    So please, lay down some more opin_ *facts*
    >SIX A-BONG SIX A-BONG OLLY JOLLY IT'S SIX-A-BONG

  4. #1624
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    No way.

    People were bad, sure. The game was much easier. Just because by the time Wrath launched people had been playing for 4 years doesn't mean Halls of Lightning Heroic was so much easier than a clearing Stratholme or Dire Maul.

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    Hence the analogy; you're convinced that your opinion is factual.
    Skill doesn't come into play when mobs would tear a clothie to shreds anyway without a proper tank, and agro management was important. It was game mechanics when you needed a real interrupt to survive some leveling mobs rather than try to nuke through it. Resistances meant you would need to change your play style or gear to survive, which meant you neede knowledge of mechanics

    Halls of lightning was much easier than Stratholme, since it was created for doing a somewhat challenging fight being part of an achievement. Imagine if Culling of Stratholme required you to kill infinite corrupter or you wiped. That would be hard. Original Stratholme you could easily be overwhelmed by adds if you weren't careful, needed to actually handle things like the banshee mind control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    As I've said in an LFR thread, I'll support the removal of LFR, if they also remove Heroic and Mythic (WoD) and go back to a one difficulty model with a decent group finder.

    (Some)Heroic raiders are just as "entitled" as the LFR crowd they love to hate "herp derp WoW is too ez, we want exclusive content, derp". Probably one of the reasons I don't miss raiding after being forced to quit, is because you had to defeat a boss on several levels before you actually "beat" them. Talk about burnout.

    Anyway, as it stands now, I feel it should be tuned for 5-10% of players (guilds) to be able to defeat Heroic content. Any less and I feel it's a waste of development resources.
    I agree. Final boss of the tier should be very difficult. It should still be notable for a group to clear 3/4 of a tier and each boss kill you be an accomplishment, first kill or not

  5. #1625
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post24838070

    The bit where you say that a few more mechanics and a 'challenge' isn't enough to keep people interested in raiding and yet.... lots of people are still clearing normal modes and heroic modes for that "few more mechanics and 'challenge'...

    So please, lay down some more opin_ *facts*
    The argument was that the content is different in heroic, thus being worth the grind to do it.

    First of all, when has content, in the history of WoW, ever been used as a term for a dungeons difficulty or gear before LFR? Suppose someone says 'Bliz should release more content', is not the first thing that pops in your head a raid or zone or dungeon? People are making the argument that a different difficulty of the same dungeon is 'content'. It's just simply not true. Go test it in trade, say, 'what content would you like to see'. Not one person will list an achievement, piece of gear or different difficulty of a dungeon. In fact people get pissy when Bliz reuses old dungeons(SFK for example) because it isn't new content, it's 'rehashed' content.

    So, argument: Heroic mode is additional content worth working towards.
    Rebuttal: It isn't new it is rehashed at a higher difficulty. Is Halo on Legendary a new game?

    If I took SoO for example and added a few mobs here and there and maybe moved some around, are you going to consider that new content worth striving for? Remember that the OP is stating that people aren't doing heroic Garrosh simply because of the difficulty. And I'm saying there are other factors, such as people not willing to find a guild and put in hours of time just to get a bit of a challenge from rehashed content they have already seen.



    Also, not necessarily relating to all that^
    How many people do you think are interested in raiding in the first place, especially on heroic mode? My guess would be a good bit less than 50%. So when he says '.23% of players have defeated heroic garrosh because of its difficulty', that is way out of context considering not every player bothers with it to begin with.

    For me personally, going from say Flex to heroic is like winning a boxing match and then being asked to do it with a hand tied behind my back. Fake and redundant. Don't confuse this with me not liking challenging content, I want to be challenged because the content is challenging, not because I'm out searching for a challenge. I'd be cool with heroic being the ONLY difficulty.

    In fact I was ok with there being Normal/Heroic in Wrath, because Normal was challenging by default and I know that there are people like end game raiders that want that extra challenge. But when the game is easy by default and I have to handicap myself is when I have a problem.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-01-20 at 05:13 AM.

  6. #1626
    The raid feels different when on heroic because te fights are more intricate, but I do think that the higher difficulty doesn't constitute new content as far as burnout or repetition goes. Going from LFR to flex, flex doesn't feel like something new. Heroic fights feel that way, but the raid as a whole does not

  7. #1627
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Herp derp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Like it or not, I don't say much that isn't unfounded.
    True dat. Spot on.

  8. #1628
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The raid feels different when on heroic because te fights are more intricate, but I do think that the higher difficulty doesn't constitute new content as far as burnout or repetition goes. Going from LFR to flex, flex doesn't feel like something new. Heroic fights feel that way, but the raid as a whole does not
    as far as this tier goes we have a couple of bosses that changes because of heroic, immerseus 10 and 25, sha of pride 25, IJ somewhat not very different, Dark shamans 10 man (possibly in 25 man too, but felt the same for me there.), spoils 10 and 25, thok to some extent, siegecrafter 10 and 25 (one of the best fights blizzard has made in terms of both difficulty and creativity.) haven't tried paragons hc but would expect it to be the same just harder and different order. Garrosh being basically the same just way harder and a last phase.

    so we have around 4 bosses that are different enough to call it new content because of the tactics, because they force you to do something so different from normal that it feels like a new boss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
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  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    as far as this tier goes we have a couple of bosses that changes because of heroic, immerseus 10 and 25, sha of pride 25, IJ somewhat not very different, Dark shamans 10 man (possibly in 25 man too, but felt the same for me there.), spoils 10 and 25, thok to some extent, siegecrafter 10 and 25 (one of the best fights blizzard has made in terms of both difficulty and creativity.) haven't tried paragons hc but would expect it to be the same just harder and different order. Garrosh being basically the same just way harder and a last phase.

    so we have around 4 bosses that are different enough to call it new content because of the tactics, because they force you to do something so different from normal that it feels like a new boss.
    Immerseus doesn't feel like boss anyway on any difficulty
    Dark shamans changes fairly little since most would've done the split tactic on normal 2 if they wiped on this boss even once

    Adding on to that, just because a fight has a couple more mechanics doesn't make it feel like a new fight. It's the same atmosphere, the same sounds and usually the same things killing you / same room.

    And @AeneasBK, HOL and every hc except maybe old kingdom were easier than any previous max level content pretty much. Old kingdom was easy too if 1 person knew what they were doing and could interrupt shadow blasts and kill volunteers.
    Last edited by Raiju; 2014-01-20 at 08:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #1630
    Looks like H Garry clears have jumped to just over 1% of raiders. Guess those Blackfuse and Klaxxi adjustments really helped smooth out the whole curve.

  11. #1631
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Looks like H Garry clears have jumped to just over 1% of raiders. Guess those Blackfuse and Klaxxi adjustments really helped smooth out the whole curve.
    Not sure if serious or trolling.

    Those adjustments are not even live.

    And the numbers have not jumped at all.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1632
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Looks like H Garry clears have jumped to just over 1% of raiders. Guess those Blackfuse and Klaxxi adjustments really helped smooth out the whole curve.
    The number of guilds that have downed H Gar has not "jumped". Are you comparing apples and oranges somewhere?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #1633
    ^ I thought the changes were hotfixes, not upcoming -- my mistake. And I'm looking at WoWprogress. I'd forgotten the OP was referring to an MMO-C post, not WoWprogress numbers. So, I thought there was a jump. Again, honest mistake.

  14. #1634
    I preferred the model of killing a boss on the only difficulty, putting it on farm, and moving forward rather than having to see the boss multiple times on varying degrees of difficulty. Even if the boss had completely different abilities, the fact that the boss was in the same room and looked exactly the same would make it feel redundant for me. I find that the environment and appearance makes up a great part of the boss encounter, and changes in abilities alone wouldn't be enough to say "Hey, this is a completely different boss encounter".

    Now that tools have been created and implemented to make finding groups easier, I would like to see how a single difficulty model would fare again, but I doubt Blizzard would do such a thing because multiple difficulties introduces artificial additional content for little extra effort on their part.

    As for the statistics on Heroic progression: the incentive to do heroics is dwindling. I just checked the Siege of Orgrimmar meta-achievement, and it doesn't even require heroic boss kills to complete it for the mount reward.
    Last edited by Xcruiser; 2014-01-21 at 12:58 AM.

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