[BRM] 10H vs 25H

[FayrenPickpocket]

Hey, Everyone! So due to recent guild drama, I have recently transfered from my home 10H 9/14 team on Azuremyst and joined a 25H 11/14 on Stormreaver. I was looking through some 25H Brewmasters, and I see some with multiple H Garrosh kills, and they're still using a heavy, heavy crit build, one that you would expect to see on 10m, so I was wondering if it's viable. Is it really needed to stack mastery in 25H, or can you survive just fine with crit?

The build was basically Hit/Exp cap > haste to 4.5k > Crit > haste > mastery. Probably more haste for more auto attacks for more GotO procs.

I noticed most single target physical damage abilities don't really change in damage from 10m to 25m (No idea about melee swings). It looks like magic abilities are the main scalers, which can only be staggered through avert harm anyway, so mastery would lose value during those fights as well. What do you guys think?

At this point, I'm going to play it by ear. I'm pretty much at the point where I can convert my gems to mastery, and be at 22% raid buffed, or I can just have a lot of crit, so if I need to change on the dime, I can. I figured I'll keep crit as long as I need to, and if I need mastery, I'll switch.

[allaiva]

Especially in 25s you should probably work towards 20% mastery buffed (it's what i've heard many do). You can still reach very high crit ratings, especially in heroic gear. As for haste, after the 5k-ish mark, there's really no survival benefit for having more.

That being said, if you're surviving fine and healers aren't upset, more crit means more damage and more consistent EB uptimes *shrugs*

[Promdates]

On 25H, expect the boss to hit you for about 2.5x more damage. A "heavy crit build" is somewhat ambiguous because even with 8-10k mastery you can reach 15-17k crit. Your gearing is going to depend on your playstyle, your healers, the strats you're using, and which bosses you're on.

I personally went with 20% mastery, which makes a 60% shuffle. It just felt "round" and made doing calculations easier. It's also about 11k mastery rating, which gave me around 13-13.5k crit rating.

[kaiadam]

2.5? o.O More like 20-40% harder, heh. The only thing that goes up by 250% are aoes that are meant to be group soaked - blood rage on Malkorok being the only boss ability that fits that description I can think of right now.

If you see brms with multiple heroic garrosh kills ... they are likely done with progression and have no need for mastery anymore, a good excuse to scumbag crit *cough*.

Is it "needed" to stack mastery? Probably not. Gear inflation has probably made crit builds more or less as survivable as straight mastery builds were initially. On the other hand, it's far more embarrassing as a newly recruited tank to die more often. Far more than doing the 5% less dps or so that a mastery build would cost you.

[Tehterokkar]

2.5? o.O More like 20-40% harder, heh. The only thing that goes up by 250% are aoes that are meant to be group soaked - blood rage on Malkorok being the only boss ability that fits that description I can think of right now.

If you see brms with multiple heroic garrosh kills ... they are likely done with progression and have no need for mastery anymore, a good excuse to scumbag crit *cough*.

Is it "needed" to stack mastery? Probably not. Gear inflation has probably made crit builds more or less as survivable as straight mastery builds were initially. On the other hand, it's far more embarrassing as a newly recruited tank to die more often. Far more than doing the 5% less dps or so that a mastery build would cost you.

Going for Crit at Heroic SoO gear level assumes you have 2H wep, not DW. DW crit cap is too easily reached. Same thing with Haromm's really, for progressing it might be better to go with Malkorok Trinket, adds extra safety and the CD reduction doesn't hurt(especially on Magic damage bosses like Shamans).

[kaiadam]

Going for Crit at Heroic SoO gear level assumes you have 2H wep, not DW. DW crit cap is too easily reached. Same thing with Haromm's really, for progressing it might be better to go with Malkorok Trinket, adds extra safety and the CD reduction doesn't hurt(especially on Magic damage bosses like Shamans).

You don't go crit for survival. Dodge/parry/haste/mastery/exp/hit are all better survival stats than crit. You're going crit for scumbag damage, and only scumbag damage - don't fool yourself, more EB stacks is pointlessly irrelevant. So while yes, while you soft cap crit while dual wielding, that's roughly equivalent to saying "the damage increase from mastery cuts off at about 70% stagger".

[Deleted]

Since vengeance is so much higher on 25man crit can provide a significant boost to dps which is one thing, but you will also find that Blackfuse, Paragons and Garrosh hit like trains. Particularly for progression I would recommend similar things to other responses in this thread, mastery is a safer bet overall than crit when you consider that you can still obtain around 50% crit while also having fairly high mastery, it also gives a fair amount of 'extra' value to the sometimes underrated 4 piece bonus.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Yeah, I basically changed my haste gems and reforges to mastery. I reached 20% mastery (buffed), while still having 12-13k crit. Haste is still at 5k, but I should be fine.

Being the new recruit at all, I'll survive first.

[Deleted]

Dodge/parry/haste/mastery/exp/hit are all better survival stats than crit

Only if you regularly waste EB stacks by capping at 15. Otherwise, there's no real reason why you would want dodge rather than crit for survival. And there aren't many more reasons why you would pick parry.

[Tech614]

Only if you regularly waste EB stacks by capping at 15. Otherwise, there's no real reason why you would want dodge rather than crit for survival. And there aren't many more reasons why you would pick parry.

Dodge and Parry both provide more avoidance then crit.

Haste allows you to over purify like crazy, reducing overall damage much more then crit.

Mastery provides loads of EH and smooths out damage. Self explanatory that it's better then crit for survival.

People need to face the facts, yes stacking crit is viable, no it's not done because it's some amazing defensive stat.

[Deleted]

Dodge and Parry both provide more avoidance then crit.

Dodge provides less avoidance than crit if you've got more than about 6k haste (depending on your Agi inducing more diminishing returns on dodge). Parry provides less at 10k haste. And that's for a random use of EB ; if you use the spell in a more clever way (by watching the swing timer of the boss for instance) these values are lowered.

And those haste levels are even lower if the boss sometimes stops hitting you (if he casts spells at the raid for example), as your dodge/parry is then useless, while you still get a benefit from crit as it helps you stack and save some avoidance for the moment when the boss hits you again.

Besides, with crit you choose when you spend your avoidance (when the raid takes damage which makes the healers less focused on you, when the boss hits harder for a short period of time, ...).

People need to face the facts

The fact is simply that crit is better for avoidance than avoidance stats for most monks (if you don't waste stacks, which should happen when you off-tank ; but dodge and parry are useless when you off-tank too, so...). And crit does more for your survival than giving you EB stacks.

[Deleted]

check luun in scrubbusters(eu) or daughty in midwiner(us) on armory and you will probably get a good view of whats good

[Promdates]

The fact is simply that crit is better for avoidance than avoidance stats for most monks (if you don't waste stacks, which should happen when you off-tank ; but dodge and parry are useless when you off-tank too, so...). And crit does more for your survival than giving you EB stacks.

EB stacks are worthless when you're not actively tanking. The only other survival benefit of crit is crit heals from chi wave, ox orbs, expel harm, and getting 2pT16 procs from raid guards. Which, let's be honest, the 2p guards are a joke at their absorption amount.

[Deleted]

EB stacks are worthless when you're not actively tanking

They're not ; you save them for when you tank. Only, with SoO gear you rapidly cap at 15 and waste stacks while off-tanking.

The point is simply that crit is better than avoidance when you don't waste too many stacks.

[FayrenPickpocket]

EB stacks are worthless when you're not actively tanking. The only other survival benefit of crit is crit heals from chi wave, ox orbs, expel harm, and getting 2pT16 procs from raid guards. Which, let's be honest, the 2p guards are a joke at their absorption amount.

Having dodge and parry is worthless when you're not actively tanking as well.

With high crit you can have near 100% uptime of elusive brew while on the boss. Elusive brew gives 30% dodge. 1% dodge= 877 rating. I would need 26310 dodge to equal what I can get from Elusive brew uptime with heavy crit. So no. Dodge is not better than crit.
Not to mention, I'd actively have to gem into dodge and reforge into dodge from other secondary stats. No agility piece gives flat dodge.

- - - Updated - - -

check luun in scrubbusters(eu) or daughty in midwiner(us) on armory and you will probably get a good view of whats good

Yeah, they both don't have a heavy stack of mastery, but they've also killed H Garrosh multiple times, so it's on farm. I'll probably just do 12/15k mastery/crit, and then end up reducing mastery and increasing crit/haste eventually.

[Liff]

check luun in scrubbusters(eu) or daughty in midwiner(us) on armory and you will probably get a good view of whats good

Not a great idea, as pointed out by Daught himself a few posts above..

If you see brms with multiple heroic garrosh kills ... they are likely done with progression and have no need for mastery anymore, a good excuse to scumbag crit *cough*.

.....
Totally off topic: Holy shit, Fayren. Ex-Gaia dude here. (Reivan..?) I didn't know you still played WoW. And a monk, ofc! o/ Your art has improved muchly!

[FayrenPickpocket]

Not a great idea, as pointed out by Daught himself a few posts above..

Oh hey, what do you know, Daught replied. *facepalm* The things I don't notice.

So I guess while they're sort of here, right now I'm Dual Wielding because I like it more. If I get a H Warforged 2hander, should I just switch to that instead? I'd be switching from 2 heroic Softfoot's last resort

[kaiadam]

Dodge provides less avoidance than crit if you've got more than about 6k haste (depending on your Agi inducing more diminishing returns on dodge). Parry provides less at 10k haste. And that's for a random use of EB ; if you use the spell in a more clever way (by watching the swing timer of the boss for instance) these values are lowered.

600 crit rating = 1% crit ~= 1% eb uptime = 0.3% avoidance
800ish dodge/parry rating = 1% avoidance, maybe 0.8-0.9% with DR.
Dodge/parry are about twice as good as crit, point for point, if you're comparing avoidance.

You'd need about 240% haste for crit to be a stronger avoidance stat, which requires about 108k haste, currently far from obtainable.

With high crit you can have near 100% uptime of elusive brew while on the boss. Elusive brew gives 30% dodge. 1% dodge= 877 rating. I would need 26310 dodge to equal what I can get from Elusive brew uptime with heavy crit. So no. Dodge is not better than crit.
Not to mention, I'd actively have to gem into dodge and reforge into dodge from other secondary stats. No agility piece gives flat dodge.

You're not comparing the right things here - it's not whether dodge is equal to elusive brew, it's whether the additional crit which will give higher EB uptime will average out to be more overall avoidance. And the answer is no, dodge/parry is roughly twice as good as crit for overall avoidance.

Furthermore, my point was crit is such a crappy survival stat that dodge and parry are better. Not that you should go for dodge and parry, because avoidance sucks, but if avoidance was so bad, and crit is twice as bad, then crit is really awful for survival.

[Babylonius]

Mastery till you know you can survive, crit after that for damage. If you're not sure if you can survive then go full Mastery, it helps the healers out by purifying more damage, and makes you less squishy. Crit is a DPS stat and those of us who use it do so because we can survive on farm fights with it.

[Deleted]

600 crit rating = 1% crit ~= 1% eb uptime = 0.3% avoidance
800ish dodge/parry rating = 1% avoidance, maybe 0.8-0.9% with DR

That is so wrong... Make a real calculation with the real formulas, don't simply write some random numbers. It just takes 6494 haste at 25k Agi or 5809 at 30k for Crit to give more average dodge than dodge.

crit is such a crappy survival stat that dodge and parry are better

If you consider than "more" means "twice less", then yeah. And that "passive" is better than "controllable".