SoO Nerfs, infuriating.

[Manhands]

You said your goal is to kill Heroic Garrosh, yes? Well these nerfs just soften the ramp-up in difficulty between the last few bosses. Garrosh has not been nerfed yet. Killing him soon is still an accomplishment.

This is good for your goal.

[Spalding]

The game isn't all about you. Get a group going quicker, down the bosses quicker, and less QQ?

[Deleted]

If you haven't killed thok yet, you won't be killing siegecrafter in a looooooong while, even with the nerfs.


Your guild is just bad, there's no other way to put it, you have an average ilvl of 570, that's good enough to kill garrosh HC, if you are truely good at the game, just stop thinking to highly of yourself.

These nerfs are actually good and reasonable nerfs, unlike dragon soul nerf.

[lokatii]

This only affects 10 man and not 25 because 25 man is considerably easier on thok and siege.

[Deleted]

They are only adjusting certain mechanics, not nerfing all of them.

Certain mechanics meaning half of what can actually do damage to you on siegecrafter? Most of the raid damage? The nerfs will be brutal.
Anyway blizzard has the stats of how many guilds are crumbling on that fight, there may actually be a good reason for nerfs that severe. A shame really, as I'd have liked to kill it before "adjustments".

[Krazzorx]

4? It's pretty standard for the average heroic guilds to progress even more months than this.
I suspect it's just a calculated move on behalf of Blizzard, to bring "new life" into T16.

I believe its 5 months? Anyways, in T14 and 15 at this point we knew there was another tier coming pretty soon so heroic nerfs wouldn't have had much of an impact with little time left. So even if guilds got roadblocked on a certain boss, it wasn't going to last long. This time we probably have 5-7 more months. If a guild got stuck on Siegecrafter for example, they could be there for a loooong time. Long enough that many guilds would be in danger of burnout and falling apart.

[Super Kami Dende]

It seems if you haven't beaten the content yet that these nerfs are right up your alley.

Also, stop complaining for the sake of it.

[icecruiser]

If you havent killed them pre nerf, then be glad you can now have an easier time. -,- *le sigh*

[Krazzorx]

This only affects 10 man and not 25 because 25 man is considerably easier on thok and siege.

25m siege got nerfed in most of the areas 10 did as well. 10 just had the bomb nerf and 25 did not.

[Isiildur]

We've been on Siegecrafter for 6 weeks now (including Christmas). Not only have we found the fight to be extremely difficult, but people started to get discouraged after weed 3, and 2 of our raiders didn't return from Christmas, leaving us to use less geared and experienced players (and we're still looking for a replacement warlock). People are tense with each other during raid time and the environment is becoming increasingly hostile.

I welcome the nerfs.

[Libertarian]

inb4 13/14 guilds screaming for garrosh nerfs

[Skarssen]

Siegecrafter is disproportionately difficult on 10man heroic, while Paragons is disproportionately easy.

I can't speak for 25man raids, but really think Siegecrafter is the only fight that needed a nerf on 10man.

[Emophia]

If you haven't killed them yet you don't matter.

Just enjoy the nerfs.

[Skarssen]

We've been on Siegecrafter for 6 weeks now (including Christmas). Not only have we found the fight to be extremely difficult, but people started to get discouraged after weed 3, and 2 of our raiders didn't return from Christmas, leaving us to use less geared and experienced players (and we're still looking for a replacement warlock). People are tense with each other during raid time and the environment is becoming increasingly hostile.

I welcome the nerfs.

At least you can look forward to Paragons when you finally get him. Paragons shouldn't take more than 30-40 pulls, which is cake after the 250+ for Blackfuse.

[Dracodraco]

Does anyone find it hilarious that:

They nerfed Paragons multiple times:
amber flying at the same rate no matter position
Canned Heat no longer stealing abilities from players
Buffs won't bug out anymore like they would before
Skeer's BOP bloodletting was fixed
AIM can now be ignored for a vast amount of classes
Injection will no longer spawn parasites if Rikkal is dead and the buff runs out, and the debuff will stack - 75% sure it wasn't stacking when we started progress, but can be wrong here
Whirling has been made far more visible
Korven's bash has been changed
Scorpion's can't be targetted by the amber anymore.
Melee damage smoothed out from the Paragons.
Riposte and Blood Shield triggers from them.
Sonic resonance was made a little more forgiving.


that's just off the top of my head. Heck, going through the old hotfix notes, here's a few for siegecrafter:

• Siegecrafter Blackfuse's Magnetic Lasso will now also pull character corpses that are on the conveyor belt to the main platform.
• Resolved an issue during the Siegecrafter Blackfuse encounter where players dropping into the conveyor belt may sometimes take fatal fall damage.
• Resolved an issue where destroying the last disassembled weapon right as it exits the conveyor belt may cause Siegecrafter Blackfuse to incorrectly gain the Energized Defensive Matrix effect.

Other bits include:
The malice change on Garrosh (including not being able to target iron-star kiters).
The tank-abuse on spoils being fixed (using multiple tanks with the blade-buff that made them do incredible DPS).
Superheated and Shockwave on Siegecrafter not hitting people while they're being pulled off the belt on siegecrafter.
The entire norushen encounter.
And probably alot more.

Were some of these bugs that needed fixing to provide us with enjoyable encounters? Absolutely.
Did fixing a heck of a lot of them end up making the encounters easier than their "untouched" counterparts? Yes, yes they did.
Yet it's now that they are going to slightly reduce some of the spiky AOE damage (which is really annoying at times with bad RNG - multishot with the superpowered Hisek during Fiery lines can be pretty devastating) people speak up?

The biggest thing with the nerfs is the idiocy of what they are nerfing. H Blackfuse and Paragons were routinely 4 healed (sometimes 5 on Paragons) during progression at much lower item levels. There is nothing to heal on the fights as is. Why would they reduce the raid AoE damage on both fights as a nerf? Healing wasn't the difficulty on either fight, and both fights can now probably be 2 healed. The incompetence of the encounter design team since Cata is astonishing.

Also, out of curiosity, does anyone happen to have links to some of those 4 healing paragon logs (on progress, not nowadays when they've been on farm for months and months, obviously)? I guess the later part of the fight (lyokuk and onwards) aren't really intense at all, but 4 healers with parasites, AIM and multishots going around... Man, that'd be brutal. Very interested in seeing some logs of it. I also highly doubt you'd be able to 2 heal Paragons nowadays.

[fengosa]

These nerfs are outrageous...before you know it .3% of the player base will have H Garrosh down.

[Lighto73]

Or, for the second time, we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

There are hundreds of other guilds that aren't in your position. I'm sorry you got a late start (we did too, and aren't too happy with the nerfs) but the rate at which guilds were progressing is probably falling behind what Blizzard wants. While it's frustrating, we are very far into this patch, and not only do guilds still progressing out gear it compared to guilds who downed bosses earlier, they are still not moving quickly.

Sorry that you guys got a late start, but you should get over it and be ready for WoD raiding.

[Krazzorx]

Blizzard is sort of stuck here, on one hand it does cheapen it. On the other, guilds do die if they can't kill a boss. That's no fun for anyone. Problem is farm gets boring, the fun of raiding is the challenge while by definition farm bosses are non-challenging.

The problem with the very high ramp up is some guilds eventually get to bosses they can't beat. They just aren't good enough. I'd say for a well organized guild, regardless of skill, you basically can progress up till about Thok. You'll eventually get there if you're determined. The problem is then a skill wall can come. And when you can't kill a boss after hundreds of wipes and making 0 progression, its very hard for it not to get to you.

In most tiers that isn't a problem, the tier ends before its a problem. End of xpac tiers though last much longer than others. So that roadblock wall is near certain to happen at the end of raids in heroic to many guilds far before the next tier comes out. Its just not likely a guild can survive that. And that's why they nerf content, to keep people moving to avoid guild destruction. Its like riding a bike. Its much easier to balance on a bike when moving than standing still (without feet on the ground). Same thing with guilds. Progression keeps guilds together. Stagnation the opposite.

[createdbyx]

This could all be resolved with the suggestion I made.

here us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11224112474?page=10#189
and here us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11224112474?page=10#191

Give players a choice -> Stacking Debuff

I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?

[KaPe]

"Stacking debuff" is raidwide, not boss specific. They don't want to nerf Garrosh or first 10 bosses. So no, it's not a solution.

Also, in case of Paragons, it could affect things they don't want to change - as it is now, it's targetted at Hisek Multishotting people for 400k+ during Fiery Edges. Not nerfing Parasites, Whirling, Amber, Rapid Fire, Catalysts, tank damage, Reave, Death from Above, or their hitpoints.