[Boomkin] So, what opener should I use?

[Tobedeleted123]

I hear different opinions on when to switch to solar opener, I also heard that I should switch between openers on different bosses. Guide sadly doesn't cover that, it only says I should switch when I have legen. meta gem/rppm trinket but I'm still not sure about that (for example, I see some heroic raiding druids use lunar opener on some bosses even though they have a legen. meta gem and rppm trinket). So, what opener should I use on what boss and why? Thanks in advance!
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Makkai/advanced
(Don't mind the missing hit, I'll get it fixed asap.)

TO CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION: By solar opener I mean the one you begin in solar and pop inc + CA right after initial starfall. By lunar opener I mean the one you begin 1 cast away from lunar eclipse.

[xtramuscle]

With your trinkets you should be opening pre lunar all of the time. With inc/hotw for every boss including single target, or so they say.

[crunk]

the idea is if you've got enough haste to make it back into lunar and only lose ~3 seconds of incarnation its worth it to start in solar if you can count on all your trinkets proccing right from the get-go. So if you've got high levels of gear and/or bloodlusting from the start go solar, if not, go lunar. I'm only 530 but I've noticed I typically get better results in solar with bloodlust but more dps pre-lunar without it. So, basically, just play around with it and see what works. My trinkets are much worse than yours and you've got a lot more haste, so it might be better for you to be solar all the time.

[thestandbyhero]

would openers change based on talent choices?

[crunk]

not really i mean i assume youre talking about ditching incarnation, but you'd still be starting the fight with CA so the solar opener is still theoretically better if youre trying to game procs

[Aboubacar]

pre-lunar, regardless of talent choices, only time u should open solar w/ ca is when you can multidot at start like protectors.

[Rytard]

I've always been fairly confused by the idea of using a solar opener as opposed to a lunar. When your procs all line up at the beginning, would it not make sense to have 2-3 back to back starfalls on top of our already harder hitting eclipse (Starfire > Wrath in terms of overall damage, not just single casts)? I remember this first coming up when people thought that FoN would benefit from eclipse, and we should start with the 3 treants in solar instead... but that obviously isn't the case. Anyone with some actual math able to explain why opening in solar is the superior move in any situation (single or multi target)?

[Pockitt]

Because by starting in a solar eclipse you'll still be able to starfall 3 times in the opener, the third one will just be delayed by a few seconds. The reason why the solar opener is better is because you'll be able to use CA earlier with all of your rppm procs and LGM up as opposed to the lunar opener where the majority of those procs will be gone by the time you pop CA. It doesn't matter whether you start IN a Solar Eclipse or not.. Just as long as your arrow is going to be heading towards the next Lunar out of CA so you don't lose that extra Starfall.

Typically the opener looks something like this assuming you're in or from a Solar Eclipse.

Prepot > Starfall > Wrath > Ca>/Inc/FoNx3 > Mushroom Detonate > DoTs > Starfire spam while using incurring SS procs.

Basically that first wrath should get the majority of your rppm procs going and if it doesn't get them all that Mushroom detonate is guaranteed to proc the rest of them. Now you'll have all of those nice int/haste procs for your CA duration that you normally won't get doing a Lunar opener after you pop CA.

[Deleted]

I've always been fairly confused by the idea of using a solar opener as opposed to a lunar. When your procs all line up at the beginning, would it not make sense to have 2-3 back to back starfalls on top of our already harder hitting eclipse (Starfire > Wrath in terms of overall damage, not just single casts)? I remember this first coming up when people thought that FoN would benefit from eclipse, and we should start with the 3 treants in solar instead... but that obviously isn't the case. Anyone with some actual math able to explain why opening in solar is the superior move in any situation (single or multi target)?

I think you're speaking of another Solar opener than everybody else. I don't even knowwhy it's called Solar anyway, it just confuses everyone. The opener everybody is talking about is the following:

Start IN Solar
prepot, starfall, (incarnation)
pop ca, dots, ss>starfire, Starfall after 10 seconds
after 15 seconds move on to lunar, starfall again
incarnation ends when you're somewhere around 0 energy.

And this opener (let's call it CA opener) is superior because of the following:
On single target the CA opener is superior because of the meta gem haste buff. Haste doesn't really help Incarnation alone while you can get a few more starfires in CA. (because it is time based, not eclipse energy based) And because the gem procs right away most of the time you maximize the profit of it when you start with CA.

On multi target the CA opener is superior because you get your buffed dots up faster.

All at the cost of delaying your eclipse cycle by 100 energy outside of eclipse (so with double the energy gain).


And for clarification: even with CA in the beginning you have 3 starfalls while Incarnation: 1st one before combat, second one after 10 seconds (CD did reset because of CA) and the third in Lunar Eclipse after ~20 seconds.

I can't show it with actual math but these are the arguments

[Aboubacar]

On single target the CA opener is superior because of the meta gem haste buff. Haste doesn't really help Incarnation alone while you can get a few more starfires in CA. (because it is time based, not eclipse energy based) And because the gem procs right away most of the time you maximize the profit of it when you start with CA.

No it's not, how hard is it to understand that all those trinkets/buffs are up for the first application of CA dots w/ lunar opener? Not everything procs the first 1-2 seconds on the pull anyway, which is why 75 pre lunar is safer. Additionally you are losing a starfall.

[Deleted]

No it's not, how hard is it to understand that all those trinkets/buffs are up for the first application of CA dots w/ lunar opener? Not everything procs the first 1-2 seconds on the pull anyway, which is why 75 pre lunar is safer. Additionally you are losing a starfall.

Where exactly am I losing a starfall?

[Rytard]

You can still get your full buffed DoTs during CA by starting a cast away from Lunar as well, though. Most of the time it takes a bit of RNG and a clipping of a starfire (popping CA at 20 instead of 0 energy), but you definitely get both trinkets/weapon enchant/prepot/LMG procs on your DoTs during CA. That point is relatively moot, as both "openers" do that... which is the point I believe you are trying to make. However, with starting a cast away from Lunar, you don't have that 10 seconds of downtime after leaving CA/Eclipse and re-entering Lunar. You just have thirty seconds of straight starfall, which seems like it would be superior considering the procs and potion that it would benefit from.

As far as multi target fights and applying full dots with procs to everything, I definitely forgo the time spent in lunar and just pop Inc/CA at the same time because if you don't you really only get CA'ed DoTs on more than one target before some of the procs start to expire.

Edited because words are hard. :/

[Deleted]

You can still get your full buffed DoTs during CA by starting a cast away from Lunar as well, though. Most of the time it takes a bit of RNG and a clipping of a starfire (popping CA at 20 instead of 0 energy), but you definitely get both trinkets/weapon enchant/prepot/LMG procs on your DoTs during CA. That point is relatively moot, as both "openers" do that... which is the point I believe you are trying to make. However, with starting a cast away from Lunar, you don't have that 10 seconds of downtime after leaving CA/Eclipse and re-entering Lunar. You just have thirty seconds of straight starfall, which seems like it would be superior considering the procs and potion that it would benefit from.

As far as multi target fights and applying full dots with procs to everything, I definitely forgo the time spent in lunar and just pop Inc/CA at the same time because if you don't you really only get CA'ed DoTs on more than one target before some of the procs start to expire.

Edited because words are hard. :/

I don't really get the argument with the "10 seconds of downtime" which you have after CA regardless.
And you forget the Meta gem proc which benefits more inside CA than outside, regardless of DoTs.

[Aboubacar]

I don't really get the argument with the "10 seconds of downtime" which you have after CA regardless.
And you forget the Meta gem proc which benefits more inside CA than outside, regardless of DoTs.

or u could have no uneclipsed time in your opener rather than doing the monogoloid swifty pop all ur cds at same time rather than staggering them properly opener

[Deleted]

or u could have no uneclipsed time in your opener rather than doing the monogoloid swifty pop all ur cds at same time rather than staggering them properly opener

So what you mean is that in the CA opener I have a few seconds without eclipse where my procs are still ticking, right? I totally see that and my opinion still stands that the pros of the CA opener at least equals, probably outweighs the cons. As I said above, I can not proof it with math, so I could be wrong with that. My experience shows me that (at least with the equipment setups I had every time I calculated everything through and through) the "monogoloid swifty pop all ur cds at same time" opener is better.

And because you refuse to answer simple questions clearly directed at you and instead try to "convince" me with cryptic arguments and words like "monogoloid" I will stop talking to you now. I came here to discuss this as I am not entirely sure about it and would love to be told otherwise. Apparently I shouldn't try this again in an internet forum.

[Rytard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the CA opener, you start in solar > starfall (1) Mushroom Det to fish for procs > CA DoTs > Starsurge/Starfire > Starfall with 5 seconds left of CA (2), re-DoT before leaving CA > Wrath/Starsurge until Lunar > Starfall (3) > Continue with normal rotation. Right?

The point I was making is that there will be unbuffed and overall starfall downtime until you hit that third starfall because you'll be out of eclipse and the CA'd starfall will end before you reach the next lunar eclipse. Instead of this, if you open from Lunar you get 30 solid seconds of starfall that are buffed 100% of the time ( 1. Prepull w/ Lunar, 2. Lunar starfall with overlap into CA, 3. CA'd starfall).

[Deleted]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the CA opener, you start in solar > starfall (1) Mushroom Det to fish for procs > CA DoTs > Starsurge/Starfire > Starfall with 5 seconds left of CA (2), re-DoT before leaving CA > Wrath/Starsurge until Lunar > Starfall (3) > Continue with normal rotation. Right?

The point I was making is that there will be unbuffed and overall starfall downtime until you hit that third starfall because you'll be out of eclipse and the CA'd starfall will end before you reach the next lunar eclipse. Instead of this, if you open from Lunar you get 30 solid seconds of starfall that are buffed 100% of the time ( 1. Prepull w/ Lunar, 2. Lunar starfall with overlap into CA, 3. CA'd starfall).

The opener would be right.

Regarding the unbuffed Starfall hits:
Because of the high haste rating with the second breakpoint and meta gem you won't need actual 15 seconds to get to 0 energy with the Lunar opener. When you pop CA at 20 energy as you said above you have even less time of it. So you have uneclipsed starfall hits regardless of opener.

[Rytard]

CA works as both lunar and solar eclipses, though. So in reality the only uneclipsed portion of starfall is the starfall that's literally not being used on the prepull. The only reason to clip Lunar is if you see you won't have enough time to get buffed CA'd DoTs on your target if the RNG works out that way, but that has 0 effect on starfall's buffs (unless you're speaking of the portion of CA's starfall that won't have all 4-6 buffs off the pull.... Which is correct, but outweighed at least imo by eclipse's bonus damage).

[Deleted]

CA works as both lunar and solar eclipses, though. So in reality the only uneclipsed portion of starfall is the starfall that's literally not being used on the prepull. The only reason to clip Lunar is if you see you won't have enough time to get buffed CA'd DoTs on your target if the RNG works out that way, but that has 0 effect on starfall's buffs (unless you're speaking of the portion of CA's starfall that won't have all 4-6 buffs off the pull.... Which is correct, but outweighed at least imo by eclipse's bonus damage).

It has effect on the number of buffed starfall hits: When you pop CA 2 seconds earlier to get the buffed DoTs you get 2 seconds less buffed starfall. Look at it that way: you need 14 seconds (just estimated now) to get from the first starfall to 0 energy you cancel Lunar Eclipse two seconds early in favor of CA DoTs. So you have 27 seconds until your CA ends. After that you still have your third starfall active. And those are the hits you lose. Of course, those won't be buffed with your trinket procs. But 15 seconds into the fight the Immerseus trinket will probably be the only current trinket which is still active. At that time even the Engineering / Tailoring bonus is probably gone.

As I said, I believe the CA opener is at least equal to the lunar opener, depending on your equipment.

[Rytard]

How do you get 2 seconds less of buffed starfall if CA also buffs starfall?