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  1. #1

    LMG proc question.

    Hey,

    I have been playing my alt disc priest quite extensively now and just got the meta gem recently. I was wondering if the meta gem is something worth tracking. I dont really have problems with mana at 10k spirit and i have read up that some people use the L90 talent with the proc or some use rapture to get 100% PW:S worth of mana, what I do is to just sort of ignore it and play through it anyway with me almost constantly casting it slightly goes to waste.

    What I am asking is what is the most optimal/practical use for LMG procs.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal PriestituteFrostmane's Avatar
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    I do track the proc with a big warning in the middle of my screen, but that's mostly because I used to play a lot of holy. For disc it's not that important to track since you won't go oom anyways. If it procs, I usually just continue what I was doing without changing anything, but throwing out a couple shields is also nice. You could indeed use the proc to cast your L90 spells, but using it on Divine Star isn't that much of a difference compared to other spells. I only found it really usefull for Halo and an occasional MD.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PriestituteFrostmane View Post
    I do track the proc with a big warning in the middle of my screen, but that's mostly because I used to play a lot of holy. For disc it's not that important to track since you won't go oom anyways. If it procs, I usually just continue what I was doing without changing anything, but throwing out a couple shields is also nice. You could indeed use the proc to cast your L90 spells, but using it on Divine Star isn't that much of a difference compared to other spells. I only found it really usefull for Halo and an occasional MD.
    actually it is very important to track to maximise disc healing, this allows a disc to run less than 8k spirit if tracked correctly, what i do is use it primarily on shields and will use it combined with halo, occasionally i use halo outside of procs but only in times where healing is needed, rest of the time i use halo for a little extra damage while it providing some good healing also.

    One of the main reasons disc has lots of mana is getting rapture procs out of LMG procs, if you ignore this yes you can probably survive but you will have up to 500k mana less, as rapture is around 50% of your mana pool back if used correctly.

    So most of the time use as many shields as possible during a LMG proc and also Halo as much as possible since this saves you between 40-60k mana minimum per LMG proc.

  4. #4
    You'll only get anything out of the proc by shielding if you know that shield is going to be absorbed. With the amount of haste disc runs right now, you won't get to cast more than two shields anyway (three if you're really damn quick to notice the proc).

    The proc uptime is so ridiculously high that it doesn't really matter to be honest. I run 7.5k spirit while being god awful with rapture. I do track the cooldown, but probably cast PW:S less than five times per encounter. I have yet to see any sort of mana problems.

    It was also discussed in other threads that catching rapture procs during LMG procs isn't giving you much mana. You should have rapture on cooldown, if you don't by waiting for LMG procs, you're already wasting mana again. Not to mention that the rapture proc during LMG is reduced by the mana saved from atonement fillers, which devalues the proc further by 40% or more. If you find yourself handling that proc well without messing with your normal rotation, sure, go for it, but it's hardly worth it. You're talking about saving 10-20k mana per minute assuming perfect procs, that's on top of a spec that generates ~180k mana a minute. Moving on to halo, I don't see how waiting for a proc to cast a 40 second cooldown is even worth it, that sounds like a wasted talent point to me. Halo is a little raid healing cooldown, either it's ready to cast when needed or it isn't.

    Additionally, I highly doubt that this much thinking about mana applies to discs running sub 5% haste, you physically can't spend all the mana you are supposedly generating by all of this. If you're having mana issues on bosses before Siegecrafter, something isn't right.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Selesnya View Post
    The proc uptime is so ridiculously high that it doesn't really matter to be honest. I run 7.5k spirit while being god awful with rapture. I do track the cooldown, but probably cast PW:S less than five times per encounter. I have yet to see any sort of mana problems.
    the proc is usually between 10-15% uptime so thats not that high really, on average you get 2 ppm and it will save you between 70-100k mana per min, not to mention any rapture procs you gain during LMG procs, it's all about managing mana the more you can save the more you can expend on abilities like binding heal and such to burn the extra mana on even more output.

  6. #6
    Weakaura for meta

    dWcwbaGnQmtc1CvHMnrDtvKBRk2jHSx0ULYpfk)vf1VL0WbkhJGZbyHcvlxKNc9yI8CsmvbtwQMUsxMuptv66czJQQ omO2SO2oLQ(iq1Wa5ZK03PughvDAkgTkz8uQCsvWTOKRPQCEGSmvQPP4BsmfyGimdefhjz6MfeXdTvNYWs6JhKQnLJ iyAz5Z4fCVA78j4gC8OuJlrfIPxiIpe7e7mq0Uy5SIE5V14VDaV(Y9a9vG8amBndrPAvUxT1yCIjTQP2cGatt0ivBe BrpHKrvvNuOibIMorXNaN4MmQQ6edeBWpAfgOibIIJKmDZcIlxI2m99I)fpG)ZDd48aZ4giMTMcXlTr9A5F5DM3Paa 9D7e(CamBnfIGILZk6L)wdG37GCoNqXxCJNzRzikxH7mqmvL1mq8jsEnmWLlxUeTNIegbiUK

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    the proc is usually between 10-15% uptime so thats not that high really, on average you get 2 ppm and it will save you between 70-100k mana per min, not to mention any rapture procs you gain during LMG procs, it's all about managing mana the more you can save the more you can expend on abilities like binding heal and such to burn the extra mana on even more output.
    Two LMG PPM = four to (unlikely) six "free" PWS and that is 54000 mana per minute. That isn't accounting for the ~4k/mps you'd otherwise be spending on atonement, meaning during 8 seconds of LMG proc you're saving 32000 mana, with puts you at a mere 22000 surplus mana per minute. Rapture shouldn't even be in this whole LMG debate since it is a static 4x13500 mana/minute, with or without having the LMG. If you're trying to hard to match rapture with LMG proc, the proc becomes worth even less mana since you don't have rapture on cooldown as it should be. It doesn't make any sense to connect rapture with the LMG.

    The LMG simply allows you to spend mana on spells you otherwise wouldn't cast due to mana cost. That is because the LMG already comes with some opportunity cost, which is above outlined atonement 16k mana/proc.

    Now take that 22000 surplus mana/minute against disc's natural mana regeneration: ~120k mpm through combat regen, ~50k mpm through mind bender/solace, 54k mpm through rapture. That's 10%, quite a lot in fact (4k spirit?), but not nearly as much as 70-100k mana per minute. That would be close to half of disc's complete and perfectly executed mana regeneration. Also note that with 4 raptures per minute and above regen numbers, rapture can make up ~30% of disc's mana regen at most, not even close to 50%.

    On top of it all simply comes that there's situations where you won't be able to cast PW:S, such as during spirit shell and PoH. And of course you have to assume that reacting to the proc doesn't affect your effectivity in any way, which is something I doubt. Let's not even talk about PW:S expiring.

    Like I said, if you can handle PW:S during LMG procs it's nice, but what's actually going to break your mana neck is missing rapture procs or mindbender/solace for extended periods of time.

    Edit: Actually, I have the dumbs on rapture. Of course you're also saving 4 globals worth of atonement mana, meaning rapture gets you an additional ~20k mana/minute. While that increases the value of rapture to over the 30% I mentioned (closer to your figure then) it devalues the LMG even further since it makes up an even smaller part of disc's regen.
    Last edited by Selesnya; 2014-01-12 at 02:08 AM.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    In my opinion it is definitely worth to track, I have WA to play a spesific sound when it does proc so it is even easier to notice. Mainly what I want to do with the proc is to get out shields and expensive spells like halo but without overhealing too much.

    As a disc priest you probably know the encounters before hand and the incoming damage pulses so it shouldn't be that difficult to know which spells you want to cast during the proc. As a rule of thumb try to shield both tanks when it procs and if possible a dps that will take dmg or has some undispellable debuff.

    Good to know is that sometimes you just want to keep smiting during the proc. It is not like you should always cast the shields and I know this will make some people mad because they think its a waste of the proc but to me it seems pointless casting shields around if dmg just wont happen, and you just wasted 4 globals you could spend dpsing the boss.

    So just create a system to track it, learn how it behaves in the pull situation and how it procs during the fight. Being rppm you really can't tell that much when the proc will happen, but after a period without any proc you'll start expecting it. It takes a little time to get used to playing with and I suppose will be having a hard time giving it up. Really liking the free mass dispels too, don't forget that one as it saves a bunch of blue also.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilbu View Post
    Good to know is that sometimes you just want to keep smiting during the proc. It is not like you should always cast the shields and I know this will make some people mad because they think its a waste of the proc but to me it seems pointless casting shields around if dmg just wont happen, and you just wasted 4 globals you could spend dpsing the boss.
    I definitely do track mine, OP.

    I'd like to say that a waste global on a PW: S that even absorbs some damage is probably okay in a 25m environent. For me, I know which fights would benefit from a PW: S during LMG.

    -Garrote on Protectors
    -Mark of Arrogance on Sha when I don't have the Gift of the Titans,
    -Anyone who is prone to go full derp [mmmm sawblades to the face\ during IJ/people with Laser/people soaking bombs
    -Anyone with the poison on Shamans
    -Bonecracker on Nazgrim
    -People Soaking on Malkorok (definitely a big advantage to bringing a disc priest here)
    -Whoever has Set to Blow/prone to being bad on Spoils
    -People with debuff on Thok, oh and pretty much the entity of the stacked phases
    -People with fire debuff/baddies, eh not as useful here but this is definitely a smite fight
    -Aim targets (though I SS in 25)
    -Mdps for iron star, tanks (another smite fight), people who didn't get the buff in the other realm

  10. #10
    Wow. Thats alot every one this has helped alot. Although one thing i have been noticing is that i am usually mid cast when it procs. So for example I am usually smiting during the proc which waste like 1 sec ish to cancel cast and then 1/2secs to mouseover and shield. It just seems to end up wasted at times where just continuing to smite would get me 2 free smites/pennance. When i get the proc with halo up i will use it always but other than that i feel it goes to waste.
    Last edited by Shadohw; 2014-01-14 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Derp Grammar

  11. #11
    Firstly, it's relevant if you're in 10 or 25.

    If 25, I'd probably ensure my halo was used during Lmg as often as possible.
    If 10, why are you using halo?

    Aside of that, it's really a shield spam if available. Definitely track the proc as the window is big enough to get added value when using the proc as compared to simply healing as normal. That's your throughput gain. As for maintaining 7k spirit...it's not a useful point. Parse out the people who think it inflates epeen to run that low and talk about it. Run what's comfortable and log your pulls. You'll figure out how best to use the procs on a boss to boss basis.
    Last edited by Smight; 2014-01-14 at 04:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Smight View Post
    As for maintaining 7k spirit...it's not a useful point. Parse out the people who think it inflates epeen to run that low and talk about it.
    7k spirit has nothing to do with epeen. There's some really simple math behind running with low spirit, that's because spirit is a wasted stat if you have mana left at the end of an encounter. 10k spirit are ~70k mana/minute, which means with the numbers I outlined in the post above only accounts for ~30% of disc's mana regeneration. Half of the passive mana regeneration comes from the naked character, that's why spirit is a bad stat, not only for discs.

    Theoretically you could drop the whole 10k spirit for 15% crit. Or some crit and a ton of mastery, which probably makes more sense since the lack of HP healing is quite apparent to disc already at this point. You trade 30% regen for 15% to 25% or so throughput. But that's quite unrealistic since a great portion of non-spirit cloth gear haste haste as a stat, which would completely dry you out of mana.

    But dropping to 7k from the typical 9k is a mere 7% drop in regen, in favor of 2000 secondaries worth of throughput. If you see yourself sitting at more than 10% mana at the end of most encounters, it's time to drop spirit in favor of throughput.

    Fake edit: I actually forgot mana trinkets in all of this, which now account for ~45k mana/minute. Those devalue spirit even further, and that's a lot actually.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilbu View Post
    In my opinion it is definitely worth to track, I have WA to play a spesific sound when it does proc so it is even easier to notice. Mainly what I want to do with the proc is to get out shields and expensive spells like halo but without overhealing too much.

    As a disc priest you probably know the encounters before hand and the incoming damage pulses so it shouldn't be that difficult to know which spells you want to cast during the proc. As a rule of thumb try to shield both tanks when it procs and if possible a dps that will take dmg or has some undispellable debuff.

    Good to know is that sometimes you just want to keep smiting during the proc. It is not like you should always cast the shields and I know this will make some people mad because they think its a waste of the proc but to me it seems pointless casting shields around if dmg just wont happen, and you just wasted 4 globals you could spend dpsing the boss.

    So just create a system to track it, learn how it behaves in the pull situation and how it procs during the fight. Being rppm you really can't tell that much when the proc will happen, but after a period without any proc you'll start expecting it. It takes a little time to get used to playing with and I suppose will be having a hard time giving it up. Really liking the free mass dispels too, don't forget that one as it saves a bunch of blue also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Selesnya View Post
    7k spirit has nothing to do with epeen. There's some really simple math behind running with low spirit, that's because spirit is a wasted stat if you have mana left at the end of an encounter. 10k spirit are ~70k mana/minute, which means with the numbers I outlined in the post above only accounts for ~30% of disc's mana regeneration. Half of the passive mana regeneration comes from the naked character, that's why spirit is a bad stat, not only for discs.

    Theoretically you could drop the whole 10k spirit for 15% crit. Or some crit and a ton of mastery, which probably makes more sense since the lack of HP healing is quite apparent to disc already at this point. You trade 30% regen for 15% to 25% or so throughput. But that's quite unrealistic since a great portion of non-spirit cloth gear haste haste as a stat, which would completely dry you out of mana.

    But dropping to 7k from the typical 9k is a mere 7% drop in regen, in favor of 2000 secondaries worth of throughput. If you see yourself sitting at more than 10% mana at the end of most encounters, it's time to drop spirit in favor of throughput.

    Fake edit: I actually forgot mana trinkets in all of this, which now account for ~45k mana/minute. Those devalue spirit even further, and that's a lot actually.
    If you're running at flat 7k spirit I'm going to presume you heal 25m raids and overheal what's required for the fight as well as not using a 4p at all. There is no fight apart from attempting to solo heal sha where the margin of error from my raidallows for 7k spirit in 10m raids.

    I simply prefer to be able to strain as needed and place the margin for mistake on being able to spam heal. Also, 7k spirit concepts fail to take in to account whether you heal with a shaman or any innervate you might receive normally. I would never advise someone asking for advice to drop that low though.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PriestituteFrostmane View Post
    but that's mostly because I used to play a lot of holy. For disc it's not that important to track since you won't go oom anyways
    further proof that chakra is shitter detection. reacting to your lucidity as disc is extremely important - the difference between getting one pws vs two (and depending on how much haste you have, you can sometimes get three) every lucidity is quite noticeable.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    @Smight

    We have one Shaman who raids with us regularly. They have ~14k spirit for progression. I do not get an innervate, I do no regularly get Hymns from our Spriests (though I suppose they'd be available if I asked.) My little thing in the sig is wrong, I'm in the 7k range now.

    7-9k is perfectly fine for 10H, as long as you have some sort of regen trinket (The Siegecrafter trink is outstanding.)

    I don't ever come close to OOM'ing. I just can't get rid of more spirit and this is the spirit I use for heroic Thok onward. And I'm wearing an LFR amp trinket, so I can't imagine what it would be like if I had the heroic sha trinket.


    That being said, spirit values over the "theoretical minimum" are acceptable if you're willing to understand that for you personally that a bit of wiggle room is more valuable than a few more secondary stats.

  16. #16
    I was running 10ks spirit at first because i was unconfident with healing and needed a buffer to heal me when shit hit the fan if i fell behind with toppping the raid, also since i only raided with pugs and they generally arent the most reliable spamming FH was sometimes needed. But after successfully 2 healing Garrosh in what i consider low gear (545) with no mana problems at all i think going down to about 8k makes sense. Post kinda spiraled off topic a bit but yeah every little helps.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Smight View Post
    If you're running at flat 7k spirit I'm going to presume you heal 25m raids and overheal what's required for the fight as well as not using a 4p at all. There is no fight apart from attempting to solo heal sha where the margin of error from my raidallows for 7k spirit in 10m raids.
    I raid 10-man, without a resto shaman or shadow to give me mana. We only have a moonkin to give innervate, which our paladin/druid always need more. I ran with 12k spirit prior to LMG, dropped to 10k with it and slowly went to 9 then 8, now currently 7.5k spirit (I physically can't drop lower). I guess I am used to it? We two-healed everything but shamans and Thok on our first kills, more DPS = less mana needed.

    Of course I don't use the 4P. That would be a crapton of additional spirit. I also run with 1.5% haste, which happens to be the haste of the legendary cloak. Right now I have heroic IJ's robe on the bank that I can't wear because I'd have to replace 1200 secondaries with spirit, so yeah, I'm quite serious about it. Edit: Have Siegecrafter trinket, did all of ToT with the VP one.
    Last edited by Selesnya; 2014-01-15 at 08:41 AM. Reason: edit

  18. #18
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadohw View Post
    Wow. Thats alot every one this has helped alot. Although one thing i have been noticing is that i am usually mid cast when it procs. So for example I am usually smiting during the proc which waste like 1 sec ish to cancel cast and then 1/2secs to mouseover and shield. It just seems to end up wasted at times where just continuing to smite would get me 2 free smites/pennance. When i get the proc with halo up i will use it always but other than that i feel it goes to waste.
    Only time I'd recommend cancelling a cast is when you try to SW: D a poly or scatter in an arena. I've set my bindings so that I am pretty much constantly hovering my mouse on top of the grid or at least very near so its pretty fast to land heals after realizing the proc just happened. Maybe adding that sound on activation thingy in weakauras changed it for me. Made it super easy to notice but that's just me.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Smight View Post
    If you're running at flat 7k spirit I'm going to presume you heal 25m raids and overheal what's required for the fight as well as not using a 4p at all. There is no fight apart from attempting to solo heal sha where the margin of error from my raidallows for 7k spirit in 10m raids.

    I simply prefer to be able to strain as needed and place the margin for mistake on being able to spam heal. Also, 7k spirit concepts fail to take in to account whether you heal with a shaman or any innervate you might receive normally. I would never advise someone asking for advice to drop that low though.
    You wouldn't want to use the 4 set in 10 or 25, though. Being able to put all those secondaries in crit rather than a "once a minute minor mastery/haste boost for 10 seconds", on an ability you might even need to save for a specific moment (AKA not use on CD) is more than worth it. Remember, even with the BEST case scenario, you're getting a 16% uptime on the bonus - to put it in perspective, that's an average of 1.67% haste and 600 mastery rating (equalling about 1.8% mastery). The overall stat budget would equal to about 1.2K secondaries for the 4 set.
    To put that even FURTHER in to perspective, the difference between my 574 tier chest and 580 warforged chest is:
    145 int.
    250 secondaries.
    Better sockets (red+red+yellow vs red+red+red).
    Better stat allocation (mastery+crit vs mastery+spirit).
    My gloves are a little less (120 int, 200 secondaries).
    So you're trading a 1200 secondary stat set bonus in best case, for a constant 450 secondaries, ~260 int and far better itemisation CONSTANTLY. Remember, delaying spirit shell in case of specific times you want to use it (1:30 between garrosh whirl's, 1:30 between aims where it'll be useable etc) will devalue the set bonus even further.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Smight View Post
    If you're running at flat 7k spirit I'm going to presume you heal 25m raids and overheal what's required for the fight as well as not using a 4p at all. There is no fight apart from attempting to solo heal sha where the margin of error from my raidallows for 7k spirit in 10m raids.

    I simply prefer to be able to strain as needed and place the margin for mistake on being able to spam heal. Also, 7k spirit concepts fail to take in to account whether you heal with a shaman or any innervate you might receive normally. I would never advise someone asking for advice to drop that low though.
    On 10m without tide/innervate I have no mana issues with 8.5k spirit(9kish heal cape) at 12/14hm, I won't expect issues on paragons and on garrosh H I'll expect an innervate from our resto going moonkin, should be more than enough.

    Going down to 7k spirit will be good for maximum output, though that requires stealing offset mage/lock armor.

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