End game exchange

[Thandorr]

There has been copious amounts of discussion on MMO-C about things that are perceived holes in endgame for casual players. My question is: would it be a reasonable exchange and more engaging if LFR did not exist, but there were 5-man heroics released every tier patch to fill the same gear level. Thoughts?

Note: the reason I ask is of those I have talked to and seen on forums, no one is really satisfied how LFR operates (slam 25 people in a raid and watch them fail and QQ, etc.)

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

LFR isn't the reason there are less dungeons. To have more dungeons you're going to have smaller raids. Or you're going to have it like TBC where they all used the same assets and weren't unique from each other, or both.

[Thandorr]

LFR isn't the reason there are less dungeons. To have more dungeons you're going to have smaller raids. Or you're going to have it like TBC where they all used the same assets and weren't unique from each other, or both.

The intent of this thread was not to talk about blizzards available resources per sei. I realize that removal of one difficulty does not free up the resources to develop the artwork, npc's, mechanics, etc. of new dungeons.

I was asking what was more engaging end game content.

[PrairieChicken]

5 mans are definitely more engaging since everyone has their jobs (in contrast in LFR you can afk without much effect)

[Klingers]

The fact is that 5-mans are a good size for social interaction. I know most LFD runs usually run silent, but you still get to meet people through them. LFR is just 25 strangers in a room, and that's generally just awkward.

[Thandorr]

I think that blizzard could actually make a good trade-off between raid content and challenging 5-man content. 14 bosses is a pretty lengthy raid tier, I think that 10-12 is a good number. This would open up other possibilities and could supply more challenging and engaging raid content for those that do not like to raid or don't have the time to raid every week while not funneling all endgame through raiding of some form or another. Just my two cents based on the feedback I've seen from casual players. I'm perfectly fine with 30 raid bosses, but do I think it is smart for business on blizzards end? Nope.

[Toiran]

Pretty much any person is going to have 100x the fun clearing heroic dungeons with friends (as they are promoting that) than ever doing any form of LFR.

I think it's better for the "casual" player anyway, as they have more choice, they can mix it up, no need to worry about resets and so on with dungeons.

Although, a 5 man group of friends could easily carry a LFR group and manage to have fun (crazy talk right?!), if they are tank/healer/dps/dps/dps and competent.

Regardless of who it's designed for, I still think we need more patch dungeons/dungeons buffed to be on the current level of content in WoD, MoP heroics are a joke, you can solo some of the damn things.

But to the question, it's a hard one, as bad as LFR is, removing it now would cause a whole lot of trouble and I don't think people would accept more heroics as an exchange, personally, I would, but I don't believe the majority playerbase would.

[Deleted]

Pretty dangerous to throw out the word "casual" that casually (pun not intended).

There are different types of casual players. I know casual players that enjoy heroic raiding, I know casual players that do not even have a character above level 70. It is just such a wide array of players. Even so, if your definition of casual is players that do not play much, amongst my friends that do not play much, the content they enjoy the most is Flex, Arena, Pet Battles, Old raids, 5 man heroics in Cata, rather CMs now and the occational normal/heroic raid pug group.

LFR is also not the reason why we have seen so little 5 mans.

[Giscoicus]

LFR isn't the reason there are less dungeons. To have more dungeons you're going to have smaller raids. Or you're going to have it like TBC where they all used the same assets and weren't unique from each other, or both.

LFR is Blizzards excuse to not have dungeons. If LFR was a failure and nobody liked it they would need dungeons.

[Thandorr]

LFR is Blizzards excuse to not have dungeons. If LFR was a failure and nobody liked it they would need dungeons.

I agree with this. If LFR did not exist then Blizz would need to include some way to obtain catch-up gear and content for those who cannot raid. Back in Vanilla/BC 5-mans were considered endgame. In 4.3 Blizz released dragon soul, 3 heroic dungeons and introduced LFR; now tell me why we don't have 5-mans now and they did? Not because of LFR; more likely because DS was an 8 boss raid instead of 14.

Also, I think the use of "casual" is easily and readily seen by looking at the context of the discussion.

[Deleted]

i only wish lfr gear color should be the same and all tiers should look the same, the normals and heroics can have better stats i don't care about that, i'm only a transmog collector anyway.

[Florena]

5 mans are fun but I think people would get tired of them unless you did something like put raid wide lockouts on them, which might be silly for five man content. I don't think that progressive five man content would really work. Just look at how blizzard is getting rid of 10 mans for mythic content in WoD. 10 man was a pain to balance. Five would be even worse. For example the issue of heroism/time warp, do you balance progressive five mans against having them or not? What about ccs? While I would like to see more five mans coming out with patches, I don't think you can really offer any sort of meaningful progression through them. And since you can run them over and over in lfd people burn out on them faster than raids.

- - - Updated - - -

i only wish lfr gear color should be the same and all tiers should look the same, the normals and heroics can have better stats i don't care about that, i'm only a transmog collector anyway.

I disagree. I think it's fine that lfr has the same models but I think that the different colors at different item levels are good for the game. You can always go in the next expansion and do transmog runs if you really want that specific coloration but can't get it during content. Gives heroic raiders something visualy different from the lfr 'wellfare' epics and I think they deserve that much.

[Golden Yak]

If LFR is the reason we don't have more endgame dungeons, then I'm okay with it. I remember Wrath dungeons and even Cata dungeons - farming the same 3 dungeons got old really fast.

I don't know, I usually tank in LFR, so maybe it's more engaging for me. But given the choice I'd rather LFR with a ton of other people rather than run a dungeon with 4. In raids sometimes you do something other than AoE and tank and spank.

[Florena]

If LFR is the reason we don't have more endgame dungeons, then I'm okay with it. I remember Wrath dungeons and even Cata dungeons - farming the same 3 dungeons got old really fast.

I don't know, I usually tank in LFR, so maybe it's more engaging for me. But given the choice I'd rather LFR with a ton of other people rather than run a dungeon with 4. In raids sometimes you do something other than AoE and tank and spank.

LFR isn't the reason we don't get new five man dungeons in MoP. Heck the patch that LFR was introduced in came with three new five mans. It's more a matter of art resources that limits it.

[Sinndra]

LFR isn't the reason we don't get new five man dungeons in MoP. Heck the patch that LFR was introduced in came with three new five mans. It's more a matter of art resources that limits it.

then it seems the better comparison should be.. Isle of Thunder, and Timeless Isle came at the expense of new dungeons, and remove LFR from the discussion altogether?

4.3 had no islandy type thing, but it did have 3 dungeons (that got old really quickly) as well as LFR difficulty of DS

5.0 had no island, but it was the beginning of the expansion so no catch up was needed. had several dungeons to gear from and LFR difficulty of the raids

5.2 had the Isle of Thunder to gear from, no dungeons, but had LFR difficulty or ToT

5.4 had Timeless Isle to gear from, no dungeons, but had LFR difficulty of SoO

[Thandorr]

5 mans are fun but I think people would get tired of them unless you did something like put raid wide lockouts on them, which might be silly for five man content. I don't think that progressive five man content would really work. Just look at how blizzard is getting rid of 10 mans for mythic content in WoD. 10 man was a pain to balance. Five would be even worse. For example the issue of heroism/time warp, do you balance progressive five mans against having them or not? What about ccs? While I would like to see more five mans coming out with patches, I don't think you can really offer any sort of meaningful progression through them. And since you can run them over and over in lfd people burn out on them faster than raids.

I don't think that 5 mans need any linear progression attached to them. If players want to progress, then they can play flex which is extremely easy. The burnout argument is a pretty lame argument as players will get burnt out eventually. Except I'm 5mans thy will get burnt out when they no longer need any gear from if where as in LFR you will get burnt out from the sheer stupidity. Lol

[Rosstafa]

We pretty much have a reformed LFR: flex. They should just remove LFR and have flex take its place as the entry raiding level. It's difficult enough that people have to actually learn their classes, but still easy enough for any player interested in raiding to do, and it requires finding a group which means people won't generally be able to get away with the sort of shit they do in LFR.

[wych]

If they're so worried about people getting bored of 5 man heroics so quickly then just make them have a 1 day reset like they used to

[Thandorr]

We pretty much have a reformed LFR: flex. They should just remove LFR and have flex take its place as the entry raiding level. It's difficult enough that people have to actually learn their classes, but still easy enough for any player interested in raiding to do, and it requires finding a group which means people won't generally be able to get away with the sort of shit they do in LFR.

That is exactly what I think. And it's what I believe the Blizz devs are thinking too. Flex is what LFR should have been. It is essentially "pick up raiding." It confronts all the problems of LFR while still providing an engaging catch-up mechanic and endgame for the time-constrained gamer.

If they're so worried about people getting bored of 5 man heroics so quickly then just make them have a 1 day reset like they used to

I believe there is still a 1 day reset for specific queue heroics, I may be mistaken. Great idea though!

[Constraint]

I'd much prefer a bigger focus on 5-mans rather than LFR. For me, that's the dream way to spend free time - entering a slightly challenging 5-man with either friends or randoms, overcoming challenges as a group, with each member pulling their weight with clearly distinct roles and jobs to do. LFR? No-one really notices what anyone does, to be honest, because the majority of the time, it doesn't matter. Sure, if both tanks and all healers magically AFK at the same time, you have a problem, but that rarely happens. DPS can usually afk to their heart's content with negligible repercussions.

Infinitely repeatable 5-mans are like heaven to me. Even in WotLKs cakewalk 5mans, I had a glorious time. On my alt DK alone, I completed nearly 1,000 5-man heroics during the expansion, and it was never my main. - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ic#14807:14823

That's a pretty serious time/endgame investment, and it proves what Blizzard can accomplish if they put design resources in meaningful areas of the game. Obviously not everyone shares the same taste in endgame, but it's not hard to see why some people are supremely unhappy with LFR being the be-all and end-all for the gamer with little free time, i.e casual.

To be honest with you, I don't even particularly care how hard they are. There are positives and negatives for both ends of the scale. All I ask for is simple - more dungeons. Less fucking RP. No-one that I know of wants to sit around and watch NPCs talk to themselves for minutes at a time, i.e Well of Eternity, or follow slow-moving NPCs the entire dungeon, i.e Hour of Twilight, or endure minutes of tiny, shit pandas rolling around until they stop spawning, i.e Shado-Pan Monastery, or wait for Arthas to discuss the meaning of life with Jaina and Uther for 5 minutes for the 50th time, i.e Culling of Stratholme. This is obviously personal preference, but in my experience, I've seen few who disagree and can actually argue that said RP is for the betterment of the game.

TL;DR - please put more emphasis on 5-mans, and less on Scenarios and LFR! The former are completely unchallenging, and probably never will be without archetype balancing. The latter needs to explanation.